The Church and Women

[Miserys_Fence]

I think we can all agree that this is something that isn’t going to happen

Gone are the days when men married little girls to boss around (literally - how old was the common new bride when these things were written?). Women today are educated and work, and if they’re not working, they choose not to work. They are equal parties and equal contributors. If a man wants to marry a subordinate to be his servant, hey that’s fine, but then he can go out and get 2 or 3 jobs to support the family on his own and earn the “privelidge” of doing so. But that’s now how it turns out where I live. Where I live, both have jobs and both contribute to the family pot, and both pay the bills together and both have an equal investment in the marriage (monetarily, spiritually, emotionally, etc). There was a time and a place where comments about men “lording” over women were appropriate, but it’s not so today, not in my country anyway.

Amen, Rence!

Miz

 

[cecilia97]

So? Better late than never. All those women have something to teach about the Faith. Even before the 1960’s we have valued the heart and mind of women. St Julian, St Theresa of Avila, St Therese, to name a few. It is this that sets us apart from protestantism. Our sisters were running convents, hospitals, schools, orphanages,poorhouses, etc. That was all before the sixties.

Amen! But some would have us believe that they were kept down by being “just” sisters and that their contributions were/are not seen, valued, and understood. Some women of the past did way more to act on their societies than us modern gals with all our rights.

I say we should continue to celebrate those women, not sit around whining and feeling bad for them.

 

[Psalm_51]

George Tavard’s Woman in Christian Tradition contains a nice survey of Catholic thought on women throughout the ages.

See here for a link to the relevant section.

That link is to a site that advocates for women priests. I think it’s a settled matter that the Church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women priests.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I think we can all agree that this is something that isn’t going to happen

Gone are the days when men married little girls to boss around (literally - how old was the common new bride when these things were written?). Women today are educated and work, and if they’re not working, they choose not to work. They are equal parties and equal contributors. If a man wants to marry a subordinate to be his servant, hey that’s fine, but then he can go out and get 2 or 3 jobs to support the family on his own and earn the “privelidge” of doing so. But that’s now how it turns out where I live. Where I live, both have jobs and both contribute to the family pot, and both pay the bills together and both have an equal investment in the marriage (monetarily, spiritually, emotionally, etc). There was a time and a place where comments about men “lording” over women were appropriate, but it’s not so today, not in my country anyway.

My wife stays at home and homeschools our twelve children. I only have a 12th grade education. We make do with what the Lord blesses us with. And yes, time to time that’s friends from Church giving hand me down cloths to my kids. With live in the DC area on one income and are doing just fine. Single moms, if the Church won’t provide, it’s a shame they need to work. There is NO reason a mom needs to work outside the home. They are called to run the home and nuture the children. It’s all in what you “WANT” not what you need.

 

[jamanne]

Anyone out there remember the treatment of any poor girl who got pregnant out of wedlock.From society and the clergy.Now I have a beautifull cousin who was forced to emmigrate to Australia from Scotland for that horrendous sin .Her boy friend didn,t even get a telling off.Or how about the bride who was forced to wear a black wedding dress so everyone who didn.t know yet would be informed of her sin.Or what of the fifteen year old sent to America pregnant by incest who was immediately sent back to have her child stillborn on the boat on the ocean. this was in the last fifty years What about the girls forced to give up their babies to “Good” families and spent the rest of their lives looking for them while all the old hypocrites were crawling round the alter rails.Or the hospitals even Catholic hospitals ,staff thought they had the right to withhold medical aid as a punishment.No wonder so many women turned to abortion they were terrified of the hell on earth they would have to endure , many of these "good’people who lead the anti abortion rallies(and rightly so) would have been the same ones bringing down a lifetime of wrath on these girls .Yes my good people women needed and cared about the vote, the inequities have still never been addressed.

 

[jamanne]

My wife stays at home and homeschools our twelve children. I only have a 12th grade education. We make do with what the Lord blesses us with. And yes, time to time that’s friends from Church giving hand me down cloths to my kids. With live in the DC area on one income and are doing just fine. Single moms, if the Church won’t provide, it’s a shame they need to work. There is NO reason a mom needs to work outside the home. They are called to run the home and nuture the children. It’s all in what you “WANT” not what you need.

I would like to know what parish you belong to that is so wonderfullto your children.Do all your children like the lifestyle ?.Will they choose it for their families when the time comes >?I think not .Who tests your children for competency in their schooling,?will they all make it to post secondary ed.?I know the US is a big place and varies greatly in amenities from coast to coas tso I am not criticizing just wondering,your lifestyle is not necessarily doable for a lot of other people a lot of mothers would love to stay home ,what do you do if you have to choose between rent and a tent might be OK in Southern States wouldn.t want to try it in Michigan

 

[MrsMW]

Amen! But some would have us believe that they were kept down by being “just” sisters and that their contributions were/are not seen, valued, and understood. Some women of the past did way more to act on their societies than us modern gals with all our rights.

I say we should continue to celebrate those women, not sit around whining and feeling bad for them.

I don’t feel bad for those women of Blessed Memory. I pray to them!

 

[MrsMW]

My wife stays at home and homeschools our twelve children. I only have a 12th grade education. We make do with what the Lord blesses us with. And yes, time to time that’s friends from Church giving hand me down cloths to my kids. With live in the DC area on one income and are doing just fine. Single moms, if the Church won’t provide, it’s a shame they need to work. There is NO reason a mom needs to work outside the home. They are called to run the home and nuture the children. It’s all in what you “WANT” not what you need.

St Gianna was a working mother.

You can run the home and work. You can nuture your kids too. If they are at school why can’t you work?

 

[MrsMW]

I would like to know what parish you belong to that is so wonderfullto your children.Do all your children like the lifestyle ?.Will they choose it for their families when the time comes >?I think not .Who tests your children for competency in their schooling,?will they all make it to post secondary ed.?I know the US is a big place and varies greatly in amenities from coast to coas tso I am not criticizing just wondering,your lifestyle is not necessarily doable for a lot of other people a lot of mothers would love to stay home ,what do you do if you have to choose between rent and a tent might be OK in Southern States wouldn.t want to try it in Michigan

I agree.

 

[Julianna]

I think we can all agree that this is something that isn’t going to happen

Gone are the days when men married little girls to boss around (literally - how old was the common new bride when these things were written?). Women today are educated and work, and if they’re not working, they choose not to work. They are equal parties and equal contributors. If a man wants to marry a subordinate to be his servant, hey that’s fine, but then he can go out and get 2 or 3 jobs to support the family on his own and earn the “privelidge” of doing so. But that’s now how it turns out where I live. Where I live, both have jobs and both contribute to the family pot, and both pay the bills together and both have an equal investment in the marriage (monetarily, spiritually, emotionally, etc). There was a time and a place where comments about men “lording” over women were appropriate, but it’s not so today, not in my country anyway.

:clapping::tiphat:

Great post Rence!! I didn’t marry my father. Permission to go outside >indeed> really???:

Oh yeah, glad you mentioned the “economy”…I have worked since my marriage in1981. If I didn’t work, we wouldn’t have been able to afford a home. Not a palace…a 3 bedroom ranch.

As Mizery’s Fence stated: “When the Council of Trent starts paying my bills for me, I’ll be glad to stay home.”

FatherofTwelve…glad you can do it and have a good job in this economy… Most people cannot. People across this country are losing their homes. I couldn’t bear the thought of stacking children like cord-wood in a two bedroom rented trailer. So I went to work. And let’s not forget the “insurance”…hospital costs for having a child are not cheap…especially when you don’t have the insurance…to help you out…

 

[MrsMW]

:clapping::tiphat:

Great post Rence!! I didn’t marry my father. Permission to go outside >indeed> really???:

Oh yeah, glad you mentioned the “economy”…I have worked since my marriage in1981. If I didn’t work, we wouldn’t have been able to afford a home. Not a palace…a 3 bedroom ranch.

As Mizery’s Fence stated: “When the Council of Trent starts paying my bills for me, I’ll be glad to stay home.”

FatherofTwelve…glad you can do it and have a good job in this economy… Most people cannot. People across this country are losing their homes. I couldn’t bear the thought of stacking children like cord-wood in a two bedroom rented trailer. So I went to work. And let’s not forget the “insurance”…hospital costs for having a child are not cheap…especially when you don’t have the insurance…to help you out…

You make sense!

 

[Just_Lurking]

That link is to a site that advocates for women priests. I think it’s a settled matter that the Church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women priests.

If linking to such a website is problematic for you, then you can just buy the book. The author is a Catholic theologian in good standing with the Church.

 

[glencora]

Floresco,

You are wrong! The desire for the right to vote was present from the earliest days of the Women’s Movement. In fact, it was Frederick Douglas at The Seneca Falls Convention (1848) who encouraged women to stand firm in this cause.

"At the afternoon session, the eleven resolutions were read again, and each one was voted on individually. The only one that was materially questioned was the ninth, the one Stanton had added regarding women’s right to vote. It read: Resolved, that it is the duty of the women of this country to secure to themselves their sacred right to the elective franchise.

Those who opposed this resolution argued that its presence would cause the other, more rational resolutions to lose support. Others argued that only the social, civil and religious rights of women should be addressed, not the political rights. James and Lucretia Mott were against the resolution; Lucretia said to Stanton, “Why Lizzie(Elizabeth Cady Stanton), thee will make us ridiculous.”

Stanton defended the concept of woman suffrage, saying women would then be able to affect future legislation and gain further rights. Frederick Douglass, the only African American at the meeting, stood and spoke eloquently in favor; he said that he could not accept the right to vote himself as a black man if woman could not also claim that right. Douglass projected that the world would be a better place if women were involved in the political sphere. “In this denial of the right to participate in government, not merely the degradation of woman and the perpetuation of a great injustice happens, but the maiming and repudiation of one-half of the moral and intellectual power of the government of the world.” Douglass’s powerful words rang true with many in attendance, and the resolution passed by a large majority. Lucretia Mott spoke to end the session.".

 

[JaneGrey]

In my Catholic house the men all help clean up so the men and women can all talk together. The women do not smoke but we all enjoy world affairs, conservatism, and being Catholic. The men are always willing to go get the ladies a nice glass of wine. They value our work as stay at home Moms and they value our minds.

Catholicism has always valued the mind of a woman. Why else would we have women doctors of the Church? Was St Catherine of Sienna for condemned for her vocal opinions on how the Pope was acting? NO.

Great post!

 

[JaneGrey]

What does that mean anyway? When my contact lens nonchalantly bonked off the sink and rolled down the drain as I watched in a state of disbelief, it wasn’t any of the men who saved my sight. My 98lb grandmother was the one who took apart the elbow under the sink and found my contact lens She’s the one who stripped wood, rigged broken things that couldn’t be repaired due to lack of money, and fixed things that could while my grandfather (God love him) sat in a LazyBoy laughing heartily (and quite contagiously) at the Three Stooges…these are my memories of my grandparents

I see nothing wrong with a man being home with the kids while the wife works outside the home, if that’s the situation that works best for them. I’ll tell you, after the long haul it took to earn my degree, I’m not just staying home…though I would consider working part time.

And you know what? as to staying home while I’m at it, I have no unearthly clue how some people (whether it’s mom or dad) can complain about being bored at home (that’s almost all I hear IRL) because if they’re actually holding down the fort like they’re supposed to, their work should still not be done at the end of the day. Staying home and taking care of the house and kids is work. And I am in awe of the homeschoolers who are actually doing homeschooling as well. It’s work. Either way, it’s invaluable no matter which spouse is doing it.

My grandmother was a traditional Catholic mother of eight, who did much of what is considered ‘men’s work’ -it did not take away from her femininity or faith.

To people who think a mother working outside the home is un Catholic-my working mother is one of the most devout, non- hypocritical Catholic women I know and I dont see how anyone could accuse her of being a second rate mother or career woman. She does both amazingly well-the older I got the easier it was because I simply was not at home very much.
Some women may find that staying at home full time may be what works for their family best, or otherwise. However no one should make judgments on this kind of personal decision, especially when they were not privy to the circumstances which may have warranted such a decision.

 

[MrsMW]

Amen to that. Jane you make sense!

 

[Tomkinst]

This was one I wanted to avoid. But something came to mind…

When Jesus was visiting Martha and Mary, Martha chose the “traditional” role of managing the home and preparing for guests. Mary sat at Jesus’ feet and listened. When Martha complained that Mary might not be fulfulling her role as a co-host, Jesus suggested that Mary had “chosen the better portion.”

It seems to me that “choice” has been accorded to women in our Church from the earliest times and from our Founder. Social customers and social needs often dictated roles for men and women. Sometimes they became opressive. We lost our way from time to time. But the real issue is what we deem as worth “chosing.” Some of our greatest saints are women, who, like Mary chose, a way for themselves and their salvation. And still, Martha (the traditionalist) is also a saint. They both exercised “choice.” They both earned sainthood.

Too much of what is promoted as “choice” is more restrictive than the yoke supposedly thrown-off.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

The discussion isn’t about cooking and cleaning. Noble women never had to do this. They had servants to do it for them. Doing it doesn’t make one more of a woman, though they are more feminine than masculine tasks. The problem is when people who have no theological training and no sensus catholicus (either theologically or culturally) attempt to cram Catholicism into their ready-made-in-China box that is the modern world.

 

[white_sheep]

I’m going to have to get my wife to read this thread, maybe ya’ll can disabuse her of the notion that there is such a thing as “man’s work”.

And women shouldn’t be named doctors of the Church, have to go with Integra on that one. I doubt greatly that the proclamation of any Saint as being a Doctor is a belief to which a Catholic must assent. Good thing, too, because that would be a real challenge. I’ve had to conform to Church teaching before when I was in error but that would certainly be the hardest.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I would like to know what parish you belong to that is so wonderfullto your children.Do all your children like the lifestyle ?.Will they choose it for their families when the time comes >?I think not .Who tests your children for competency in their schooling,?will they all make it to post secondary ed.?I know the US is a big place and varies greatly in amenities from coast to coas tso I am not criticizing just wondering,your lifestyle is not necessarily doable for a lot of other people a lot of mothers would love to stay home ,what do you do if you have to choose between rent and a tent might be OK in Southern States wouldn.t want to try it in Michigan

Our “Lifestyle” is probably really no different than yours. Two days ago we all went to see Toy story 3. We are not destitute poor. We don’t live in a tent. Our house has 7 bedrooms; We have a mortgage, We have a large food bill, we have a huge garden.
I make a six figure income. I grew up in Michigan, its cold here in DC a couple of times a year (nothing like MI though) what I meant was that I take no credit for what we have; I said “We make do with what the Lord blesses us with.” That was the thrust of my point. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed. But as for my children choosing the lifestyle, well, we all pray that our children will follow in the ways of the Lord. My oldest (20yr old son) graduated high school early; he works for an engineering firm in aircraft simulation. He attends our local community college at night, which his company pays for. My next (Daughter) was accepted to Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH. She had a 4.0 GPA for High school. She is entering the nursing program. But I still had to Borrow $20k
for her first year. She says she will pay it off. (Please God!!!)
She will more than likely “Work” outside the home (which I did not say was “EVIL”); more of you don’t NEED to. There are ways to get by without it. There was a time in our marriage when I actually held four jobs; I worked from 4:30 am till 11am stocking shelves at Wal-mart. During the lunch rush I would deliver pizza for dominoes, at around 2pm go to work a small graphics company, get off for dinner rush, deliver some more pizza, then back to the graphics company till about 7-8. Then once a month for a week end go to my Navy reserves drill. During this time people from church would still bring us groceries. We still were behind. We had to move out of our rental home and into a camper in a camp ground. The reason I say all this is because at this time in my life. I was trying to do it all MY WAY. I was not faithful to God during this time. When I finally gave in (from pure exhaustion) to the Lord, we became “Open to Life” in line with Church teaching. As a couple we said yes to children, as many as God would bless us with. It is the Lord who opens and closes the womb. I can truly say from that point on, our LIFE changed. We had our fourth child, then fifth, sixth…and so on. My wife taking personal responsibility for the education of our kids. From day one she has always included the usual, math, English, science, etc. But also and most important, scripture study and prayer. All the while as the kids came I kept getting better jobs, the money came in. NEVER an amount to bring me out of humility, but always enough to give thanks to God! Now even with my salary, we are still not RICH. My food bill is probably more than your mortgage. But God keeps providing.
My next oldest (18 yr old son) has been accepted into Seminary by Arch Bishop Wuerl of Wash D.C. He will be off to St. John’s in NY next month. My next 13 yr old daughter is maintaining a 3.9 GPA (freshman). After that …we hope for the best.So far so good. Yes, I think my children will imitate the lifestyle. Being faithful to our Lord. THAT’S the Lifestyle!

I hope this gives a clearer picture of what I was trying to say. As you can guess, my wife WORKS ten times harder than I do on my computer at my firm. I’m in no way trying to disparage women who truly do have to work outside the home. I think it’s just a shame. I would just share that the blessings received by my wife and I by her being at home far out weigh any advantage we would “gain” from her not being home.
God Bless,