The Church and Women

[JaneGrey]

Thanks, yea the four jobs darn near killed me (and I was 26 at the time). I’m now 46 and my wife is welllll she may be reading this… anyway she is younger than me We both try and go to the gym for an hour each day, it’s our “Daily Date” the older girls take care of things while we’re out. You are truely correct about the death thing. I’ll be honest. After our 12th. I got a little concerned thinking about dying and leaving my wife and kids. I went and talked to my priest told him my concerns about dying and concedering NFP, should I? He said the worst thing a father could ever do is divorce his wife and abandon his children. When a faithful father dies, even at an early age. His children will know the love he had for them. They will bond, and pass that love on to the younger ones that may have never even known me. Truth be told, I’m tearing up right now thinking about it. I can’t see the screen right now. God Bless.

Back now under control:thumbsup:
My wife homeschooled up until 10th grade work. Our kids graduated high school at the local community college. My wife and I both only have a high school education. Algebra and geometry were as far as we got in math.
My family; facebook.com/profile.php?id=1496900336

Your family look lovely, thanks for sharing that. We may disagree on some things but you seem like a great husband and father and Im sure your children will benefit from that at least.

 

[cecilia97]

With respect, your post leaves out all the stay at home dads out there as well those fathers who are the primary or equal caregivers of their children. They do a fantastic job.

Yes there is nothing wrong with a woman staying home and taking care of her children. Nothing to be ashamed of and for the record I do not think the Church, at least compared with other similar institutions, has really oppressed women.

I do take issue with labeling something ‘women’s’ or ‘men’s’ work. If a man wants to stay home and tend to his house and children, let me do it and he should not be ridiculed. If the wife finds it more practical and fulfilling to work outside the home, she should be not chastised either.
Further, the priesthood is certainly not for all men, and though im sure many would disagree with me, motherhood not for all women.

God bless

One thing is certainly “women’s work” and always will be: childbearing. A dad can do an awesome job raising children, but he can’t give birth to them.

 

[revert_jen]

When I said before that I dont think a particular job or action should be labeled as simplistically as men’s or women’s work, I did not mean that anyone who chose to partake solely in women’s work are wrong. However the option should be open for those who want to work in fields outside what is generally seen as ‘suitable’ for their gender. Some women are simply inept at ‘women’s work’. I certainly am haha.
My mother has never really cooked for instance but to this day does simple DIY repairs around the house. When she was younger she even did not so simple repairs.
I have also seen young men who are great and even nurturing with children-some may find the thought of a nurturing man disgusting or weird but I think it would be a shame if these men never got to do the ‘women’s work’ that they are so good at.
As to having to do more things nowadays, yes it is tougher but that is what you get for more freedom. I want to be able to drive my own car, so I learned how to change a tyre myself etc.

As I said, I prefer it the way it is now, but I still think we need to be aware of the disadvantages. For example, in my heart of hearts, I really prefer “women’s work” but I am not able to spend much of my time doing it. I have to work in a predominently male office, I have to be able to change a tire (once I even changed the belts, when I was hard up!), I have to be able to use a drill and a saw and a hammer. (OK, actually I like using the drill and the saw Makita cordless drill, wahoo!) Sure, much of this is due to choices I made when I was younger, but I had no idea what the actual choices meant at the time. I can’t think I am alone in this. So I find myself at midnight on Saturday canning cherry jam, for example. It’s hard to fit it all in.

–Jen

 

[JaneGrey]

As I said, I prefer it the way it is now, but I still think we need to be aware of the disadvantages. For example, in my heart of hearts, I really prefer “women’s work” but I am not able to spend much of my time doing it. I have to work in a predominently male office, I have to be able to change a tire (once I even changed the belts, when I was hard up!), I have to be able to use a drill and a saw and a hammer. (OK, actually I like using the drill and the saw Makita cordless drill, wahoo!) Sure, much of this is due to choices I made when I was younger, but I had no idea what the actual choices meant at the time. I can’t think I am alone in this. So I find myself at midnight on Saturday canning cherry jam, for example. It’s hard to fit it all in.

–Jen

I see what you mean. If its any consolation, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you are alone and need to use a drill and hammer, change tyre etc at least you know you can do it yourself and you dont have to panic while waiting for someone to come and help you. There is such a satisfaction in knowing that one can take care of oneself in such events.
I do hope that you manage to find a way to do more of the things that you actually enjoy doing. Take care!

 

[LilyM]

St Gianna was a working mother.

You can run the home and work. You can nuture your kids too. If they are at school why can’t you work?

AMEN!!! And as far as I can see (shocking as this may be to some of you) she DIDN’T work merely because she had to to financially support the family. She did so because she had a serious contribution to make in her work as a doctor.

Seems God doesn’t have a problem with women working outside the home - so who is anyone else to say that they shouldn’t?

I’m the proud daughter of a mother who (like St Gianna) is a doctor, and granddaughter to a grandmother who worked outside the home in agribusiness. I can confidently say that the contribution they, and that of many women in other professions, have made to the community, and to their families even, through their work is fully the equivalent of the contribution they’d have made by staying at home full time to raise their children.

'Nuff said.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I don’t wear long hair. I love pants. I support myself. I am almost done with college and plan on grad school. I travel the world. I’ve played “boys sports” and I’m told I act like the boys.

Yet I’m still Catholic And still a woman!

For all those who think women have no business working outside the home.

1. It was an all MALE Supreme Court that decided abortion was not to be made illegal in the United States.
2. We have quite a few female saints who’ve done non-traditional roles. St. Joan of Arc (at a time when people believed literally that the Bible said women could not wear men’s clothes). St. Gianna Molla. There’s more. Apparently, God really doesn’t care as long as they seek Him above anything else. Including husbands.

As for men’s work and women’s work, oh please. My father’s Italian, of course he cooks. And even though my mom was home more, he helped clean the house. You know why? Because he’s not a prideful, arrogant man who considers himself above such tasks! He’s a humble, hardworking man who believes in helping his wife if she needs it. And I’ve been learning a bit how to fix things.

God called us to love each other, to choose HIS will. For some, that means staying at home and having lots of kids. For others of us, it’s not. And that doesn’t make us terrible Catholics who deny our womanhood. In fact, because of my life, people said they respect my worldviews more, because they know I don’t box other women.

So how about I not only talk politics, I fight for them and make them, all in the name of God, who gave me my strengths and gifts? How about I study the “boy things” (science, math, economics) and learn how to make serious impact?

And if a good Catholic guy doesn’t want me because I"m not docile, demure, or willing to sacrifice everything I’ve built up, then, well, I don’t want him anyway.

By the way, birthing a child does not make you competent to raise them. Enough of my dysfunctional extended family has taught me that.

 

[Julianna]

I don’t wear long hair. I love pants. I support myself. I am almost done with college and plan on grad school. I travel the world. I’ve played “boys sports” and I’m told I act like the boys.

Yet I’m still Catholic And still a woman!

For all those who think women have no business working outside the home.

1. It was an all MALE Supreme Court that decided abortion was not to be made illegal in the United States.
2. We have quite a few female saints who’ve done non-traditional roles. St. Joan of Arc (at a time when people believed literally that the Bible said women could not wear men’s clothes). St. Gianna Molla. There’s more. Apparently, God really doesn’t care as long as they seek Him above anything else. Including husbands.

As for men’s work and women’s work, oh please. My father’s Italian, of course he cooks. And even though my mom was home more, he helped clean the house. You know why? Because he’s not a prideful, arrogant man who considers himself above such tasks! He’s a humble, hardworking man who believes in helping his wife if she needs it. And I’ve been learning a bit how to fix things.

God called us to love each other, to choose HIS will. For some, that means staying at home and having lots of kids. For others of us, it’s not. And that doesn’t make us terrible Catholics who deny our womanhood. In fact, because of my life, people said they respect my worldviews more, because they know I don’t box other women.

So how about I not only talk politics, I fight for them and make them, all in the name of God, who gave me my strengths and gifts? How about I study the “boy things” (science, math, economics) and learn how to make serious impact?

And if a good Catholic guy doesn’t want me because I"m not docile, demure, or willing to sacrifice everything I’ve built up, then, well, I don’t want him anyway.

By the way, birthing a child does not make you competent to raise them. Enough of my dysfunctional extended family has taught me that.

:clapping::clapping::tiphat::tiphat:

A real man appreciates a successful woman who can stand on her own two feet.

My husband always did the cooking. I had two Csections…he changed his shift to 2nd, so he could take the “night shift” with the kids. Yes, I worked outside the home…and because he changed his shift…I was never in lack of sleep to get up and go to work the next day.

My dad on the hand…work by 8, lunch at noon, come home at 5…mom would have dinner ready…Cronkite and the news at 6…stayed on the couch watched TV and to bed at 10. Never conversed with my mother…asked her how her day was…

Yep…that was the lay of the land in the 50’s and early 60’s…I am glad that has changed for the better. When my mother was in the hospital having my brother in 66…my dad had “no clue” how to take care of a 6 and 8 yr old girls…he couldn’t even brush our hair. He called the lady next door to help us get ready for school.

My husband and I share everything…the kids…schooling the chores…now the kiddos are grown and we still do the same things “together”. My daughter is 25 and is in no hurry to get married “again” and realizes now (some are slow learners) that “marriage” means something. She is out having the time of her life…being responsible by working and paying her bills and taking care of “herself” first. She has “learned”…that a man “taking care of you” comes with a “price”…she was not willing to pay.

 

[JadeStarr]

:clapping::clapping::tiphat::tiphat:

A real man appreciates a successful woman who can stand on her own two feet.

My husband always did the cooking. I had two Csections…he changed his shift to 2nd, so he could take the “night shift” with the kids. Yes, I worked outside the home…and because he changed his shift…I was never in lack of sleep to get up and go to work the next day.

My dad on the hand…work by 8, lunch at noon, come home at 5…mom would have dinner ready…Cronkite and the news at 6…stayed on the couch watched TV and to bed at 10. Never conversed with my mother…asked her how her day was…

Yep…that was the lay of the land in the 50’s and early 60’s…I am glad that has changed for the better. When my mother was in the hospital having my brother in 66…my dad had “no clue” how to take care of a 6 and 8 yr old girls…he couldn’t even brush our hair. He called the lady next door to help us get ready for school.

My husband and I share everything…the kids…schooling the chores…now the kiddos are grown and we still do the same things “together”. My daughter is 25 and is in no hurry to get married “again” and realizes now (some are slow learners) that “marriage” means something. She is out having the time of her life…being responsible by working and paying her bills and taking care of “herself” first. She has “learned”…that a man “taking care of you” comes with a “price”…she was not willing to pay.

Well Said, Julianna.
I believe that every woman should be able to take care of herself, financially and emotionally. Each couple decides what a 'good" marriage consists of…but if the husband dies or is disabled how will the girl carry on if she doesn’t know that basics of self care?
Certainly, in the case of children, both parents should know how to care for the child,
it’s not a woman’s job…it’s a parent’s job.
In this area, I must say that the Church does a pretty good job of making sure that girls as well as boys develop their talents, Catholic schools do not discourage bright girls
from learning and doing well.

 

[glencora]

I am not a feminist, but I am glad that I have options! Not everyone wants to marry and have children. I am 39 and want to remain single. I have never desired marriage and children. I like the freedom of singlehood. In centuries past; women were not allowed to choose a life path which differed from the norm. There is no logical reason why a woman could not be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, scientist, etc., except tradition, masquerading as divine decree. The first female doctor was nearly prevented from pursuing her dream because of prejudice. I am African-American. I know well how privilege can be used to oppress. Men have always been allowed to grow spiritually, mentally, and intellectually. While feminism had altered many things for the worse; I will never say that I am angry about the options available to me. I am a human being first and woman second. I cherish the gains made by women, including the vote!

 

[Julianna]

I am not a feminist, but I am glad that I have options! Not everyone wants to marry and have children. I am 39 and want to remain single. I have never desired marriage and children. I like the freedom of singlehood. In centuries past; women were not allowed to choose a life path which differed from the norm. There is no logical reason why a woman could not be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, scientist, etc., except tradition, masquerading as divine decree. The first female doctor was nearly prevented from pursuing her dream because of prejudice. I am African-American. I know well how privilege can be used to oppress. Men have always been allowed to grow spiritually, mentally, and intellectually. While feminism had altered many things for the worse; I will never say that I am angry about the options available to me. I am a human being first and woman second. I cherish the gains made by women, including the vote!

:clapping:

There is a saying when some CAF members call me a feminist:

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.

 

[MichelleByrne]

I am only addressing the women priest issue here…

Culture and fashion changes, but we want to preserve the sanctity of the timeless truth of our religion. We believe that those things which contain and surround the truth should not be changed from the time of the institution of the church.

Jesus was born into a male-dominated culture/religion and He did not advocate females having roles of performing ritual and sacraments. Nor did the Apostles. There must have been a reason, otherwise He would have instituted the change He wanted to make.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

I don’t wear long hair. I love pants. I support myself. I am almost done with college and plan on grad school. I travel the world. I’ve played “boys sports” and I’m told I act like the boys.

I’m sorry.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Why are you sorry?

I, for one, am very happy, still feminine in other aspects, and have a life of adventure. Plus, I have God.

Maybe it’s not something you would choose for yourself, but why would you pity me?

 

[Onegin]

:clapping:

There is a saying when some CAF members call me a feminist:

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.

And by “doormat” you mean what, exactly? Sentiments that are in keeping with historically traditional views on women’s and men’s roles?

Having an opinion is fine, but I don’t think it’s quite fair to insinuate (as your post appears to do) that anything other than a modern opinion on women’s/men’s roles is simply being a “doormat.”

 

[MichaelR]

Women were oppressed by men in history. Teachings from the bible and the church and priests were used as justifications for the acts and oppressions carried out against women. However, when looking at history in this way, this was a cultural thing, not just a religious one. Women were treated this way in society in general. Not every woman was treated that way, and not every man treated women in that way, but it was a social ‘norm’ for lack of a better term. To say that it was just the church or religion is skewed, because it has to be seen comparatively with cultural views and practices as a whole at the time. So yes, there was oppression within the church and via religious teachings, but just as there was in a majority of homes and towns and villages at the time, religious or not.

Now, for me, the interesting question is whether the whole of society found it acceptable and carried on in such a way because the teachings of the Church reinforced it and influenced it, or if the Church found it acceptable and carried on in such a way because society reinforced and influenced it.

 

[Julianna]

And by “doormat” you mean what, exactly? Sentiments that are in keeping with historically traditional views on women’s and men’s roles?

Having an opinion is fine, but I don’t think it’s quite fair to insinuate (as your post appears to do) that anything other than a modern opinion on women’s/men’s roles is simply being a “doormat.”

If you consider 1913 as modern I necessarily don’t, but that is “when” it was quoted and for some reason, it is timeless.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Yes, 1913 is very modern.

Sanctamaria, I meant that it seems you are judging the situation from a personal approach (that is, what you prefer, what you do, etc.) rather than from an objective approach (what is appropriate, what is better, etc.).

Viva Italia!

 

[sanctamaria17]

Yes, but what is appropriate by society and what is appropriate with God don’t always mesh.

I find that too many people assume every woman’s roles to be wearing veils, having lots of children, staying home, wearing dresses, etc and I wanted to clarify that it is not the case, from my own experience.

And sadly, we lost the Cup But we shall be victorious again!

 

[JaneGrey]

Yes, but what is appropriate by society and what is appropriate with God don’t always mesh.

I find that too many people assume every woman’s roles to be wearing veils, having lots of children, staying home, wearing dresses, etc and I wanted to clarify that it is not the case, from my own experience.

And sadly, we lost the Cup But we shall be victorious again!

Are you Italian or just supportive of Italy in the World Cup? Haha Italy won the last Cup, and I think they have a good chance of getting far in the next one. This year however seems to have been ruled by the underdogs.

 

[LilyM]

Are you Italian or just supportive of Italy in the World Cup? Haha Italy won the last Cup, and I think they have a good chance of getting far in the next one. This year however seems to have been ruled by the underdogs.

Which this time really means the Netherlands should probably win - everyone seems to be gunning for Spain.