The Church attempts to replace Christ with Mary?

[MarcoPolo]

As is proper, someone who wishes to reject the doctrine or reference of Mary as a Mediatrix must engage the actual teaching of the Church on the term, otherwise, they are arguing against straw men and assigning a definition to the Catholic use of “Mediatrix” that the Church does not intend.

There are a couple pertinent paragraphs from Lumen Gentium that may help (emphasis mine):60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298)* The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity**, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) *This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17)

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer**. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures,** so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.**

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.*Some Protestant thought excludes the notion that we can “share” in Christ’s work, yet in numerous places in Scripture are we told to do so, to die with him, to suffer with him, etc… The critic must engage the Church’s doctrine on the level at which it is actually taught.

 

[MJCamp]

This short clip may shed some light:

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

 

[EIF5A]

I forget where I read this (somewhere on CAF), but the the Blood of Christ was physically formed first in the womb of Mary. Never really thought about that until it was pointed out to me.

Methinks Protestants might be inclined to alleviate their scrupulosity if this info was pointed out to them. They do not hate the Blessed Mother; it’s only an irrational fear.

 

[Mark121359]

It’s mind boggling to me to even begin to imagine the uniqueness of the Blessed Mother. I mean, here’s a woman who actually carried God in her womb. She gave birth to Him, held Him, nurtured and raised Him. The Ark of the Covenant! God the Father chose her to be the Mother of His Son. What an amazing creature she is! Immaculately conceived, completely sinless, a perfect, spotless rose. Next to Jesus…no one comes close! There’s no wonder why Catholics love her so much. The confidence that each one of us should have in the Virgin Mary was expressed by Pope Pius IX in the encyclical Ubipriinum : ***“The foundation of all our confidence. . . is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” ***

Ah yes!..the Catholic Church is spot on with regards to Mary!

Peace, Mark

 

[petra22]

The church would NEVER try to replace Jesus with Mary. Jesus is EVERYTHING, Mary is His mother and ours!

 

[SuperLuigi]

A non-Catholic friend of mine challenged the Catholic Faith on a point today and I would like to see how you guys answer it. He himself is a non-denominational Christian. He believes that Catholicism places way too much emphasis on Marianism and that it seems that the Church has attempted to replace Christ as the mediator between God and man with Mary as the mediator. Thoughts?

The Protestants and non-denominational folks always say that. They think Mary should be marginalized and was “only” the mother of Jesus.

And the idea that that someone could replace Jesus is absurd.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I forget where I read this (somewhere on CAF), but the the Blood of Christ was physically formed first in the womb of Mary. Never really thought about that until it was pointed out to me.

Methinks Protestants might be inclined to alleviate their scrupulosity if this info was pointed out to them. They do not hate the Blessed Mother; it’s only an irrational fear.

Wow, I never stopped to consider this. And, of course, this was the Blood that was shed for our sins.

 

[ahs]

A member here named Tantum Ergo once answered a question about this in such a magnificent way (in my opinion) that I quoted the whole thing and made a blog post out of it. It was an answer to a question about praying to Mary instead of Christ, and about how prayers to Mary detract from Christ. This is what Tantum Ergo answered (and the link to the full blog post is below):

“But she is not prayed to ‘more than Jesus’.

When Pope John Paul II thanked Mary, it was for her intercession which she only was able to do with the power of Jesus, not ‘by herself’.

You see, Mary and the saints are not in opposition to God. They don’t do ‘their thing’ with God doing His, separately.

All that Mary and the saints do is through God. They do nothing without Him.

So any time you are praying to Mary, you are praying to Jesus through Mary, with Mary. . .you are never praying to Mary ‘alone’, or Mary 'instead of" Jesus.

There is simply no way that Mary or the saints are anything whatsoever without God.

The fact that they are with God and united to Him in Heaven means that they are always ‘with’ God, never apart from Him. They do nothing, see nothing, hear nothing etc except through Him, always and completely.

As St. Paul says, here we ‘see in a glass darkly’. . .in Heaven we ‘see face to face’.

So praying to Jesus through or with Mary is always and for ever centered in Jesus.

It’s kind of a ‘two-fer’. . . We pray to Christ, and Mary prays with us to Christ.

It’s as if you were a small child going to ask your father (the head of your family) for a favor, and your mother went with you and added to your request with, ‘yes, please let this be granted’.

Your mother couldn’t grant you the favor herself, alone. You don’t go to her instead of your dad. Your dad and your mother though are so united through marriage that they are indeed ‘one flesh’, so her request on your behalf is a powerful ‘intercession’, but ultimately it is your father’s decision, even if, for example, you asked for a new baseball bat and he said yes, but he was going off to work and your mother was the one who went to the store with you and picked up the bat. It would still be coming to you through your parents (united as husband and wife), with your mother’s ‘intercession’ but solely by the authority of your father as head of the household.

This is of course a limited example as both your mother and father are creatures and even though your dad is the head of the family, your mother is not his ‘creature’. But even so, I think you can understand that Mary, a creature, not a creator, is still united to Christ, and that because she is so united (in a way that we ourselves will not be until we would, God willing, ourselves be in heaven as well) to Him, we can ask her to join her prayers to ours, to God.” (Tantum ergo)

daves-ahumbleservant.blogspot.com/2013/07/does-prayer-to-mary-take-away-from.html

 

[Heart_Foam]

But no one is asking the only question worth asking: what kind of being must Mary necessarily be if she can hear, and forward, and pray with all the millions of prayers she receives? Is Mary a finite, limited human being, or does Catholicism make her ipso facto divine?

And saying praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny. Yes, Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19, and many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (you’re not about to fight this point I’m sure, but here’s a few references: 2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). However - and this is firstly - the Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. Secondly, the Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. Either, praying to Mary is unprecedented and silly because there’s nothing to say she can do anything. Or she, like other saints presumably, is not finite or limited. In short, to make her at all a possible recipient of prayer, one must equate her to God Himself - unbiblical for countless other reasons. Being finite, how could Mary possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? And finite Mary really does get millions. It is in every way dissimilar from asking Joe Blob next door to pray for you. Thirdly, Catholicism presupposes that God answers prayer according to who is praying, as if that is an important criterion as opposed to asking in accordance with God’s will. 1 John 5:14:

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

No one in Heaven has any greater access to God’s throne that we do through prayer. Hebrews 4:16:

Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[Heart_Foam]

And to believe God will grant or is more likely to grant a request because it came from Mary implies that God is not perfectly just because He does not treat the requests on their merit.

 

[Kay_Cee]

And to believe God will grant or is more likely to grant a request because it came from Mary implies that God is not perfectly just because He does not treat the requests on their merit.

Well, the Bible says, “The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.” (Proverbs 15:29)

And also “The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” (James 5:16)

It seems from the Bible that the person making the request has something to do with it. Wouldn’t a perfectly just God take the righteousness of the person making the request into consideration?

 

[ahs]

But no one is asking the only question worth asking: what kind of being must Mary necessarily be if she can hear, and forward, and pray with all the millions of prayers she receives?

What makes you think she’d have to be anything other than the person in Heaven that she is? Are people in Heaven more limited in their ability to hear prayers than we are on Earth when we pray for each other? Heaven has no “time”, as it were, so what limitation is there in hearing millions of prayers?

I asked this to someone recently, but it fits perfectly here now, so I will ask you: Do you suppose that you can determine what God can and cannot allow or to whom God can give power to? God gave power to Elisha’s bones to restore life (2Kgs 13:20-21). Do you think God can’t grant that a person can answer a simple prayer request, or millions of them?

Do you think it’s more miraculous for a saint in Heaven to answer a prayer for healing [by God’s Power] than it was for Peter’s shadow to grant healing (Acts 5:15-16)?

Do you think it’s more unlikely to have a prayer [to any given saint] answered than it was to be cured by one of Paul’s facecloths (Acts 19:11-12)?

And saying praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny…However - and this is firstly - the Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth.

What are the angels in Heaven doing in Reveltion 5:8? Are they participating in something they should not be by offering our prayers to God, as though they are mediators of some sort? Was Raphael (Tob 12:12) participating in some sin by offering their prayers to God? And, if Christ was telling the Truth, that God is God of the living in Mk 12:26-27, then how is it different to ask prayers of those who have passed on before us? Are they LESS able, in their heavenly existence, to pray for us than they were here on earth? (Scriptural support for all assertions please.)

Secondly, the Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers.

The Holy Spirit has led me to believe that Revelation provides exactly such an indication in Rev 5:8 and 6: 9-11. If the angels can offer up our prayers to God, and the dearly departed martyrs can plea for justice, why can’t they hear us? (Scriptural support, please.)

Mary and the saints are not omniscient.

No one said she is. To say that she must be in order to hear a prayer is a non-sequitur, and is your burden to prove.

In short, to make her at all a possible recipient of prayer, one must equate her to God Himself -

You are also limiting God, by this statement of yours, by saying that God cannot allow anyone to answer a prayer because only God has these attribute. Are you saying that God is not able to allow answered prayer through those who don’t have these attributes? Are you limiting God in what God can do? Was that you intention?
You have yet to establish that a person requires certain attributes in order to answer prayer. You’re going to have to explain away a lot of Scripture to attempt that, however. Do you suppose Paul’s facecloth has the attributes of God when it cured people of their ailments? Did Elisha’s bones have these attributes? Did Peter’s shadow?

Thirdly, Catholicism presupposes that God answers prayer according to who is praying, as if that is an important criterion as opposed to asking in accordance with God’s will.

Your assertion, you show the evidence for it, or retract it. Pertinent Catholic teaching from an authentic Catholic source that shows this, please.

And to believe God will grant or is more likely to grant a request because it came from Mary implies that God is not perfectly just because He does not treat the requests on their merit.

Strawman and non-sequitur. No one has implied such. However, KayCee in Post #31 gave a great insight there into what Scripture says. Do you suppose Scripture is incorrect there?

 

[PRmerger]

But no one is asking the only question worth asking: what kind of being must Mary necessarily be if she can hear, and forward, and pray with all the millions of prayers she receives?

Heh.

The same kind of human that you are, that can hear, forward and pray for all the prayer requests you may receive via the internet.

If you can know what I am needing intercession for, thousands of miles away, without being divine, then so can Mary.

 

[PRmerger]

And to believe God will grant or is more likely to grant a request because it came from Mary implies that God is not perfectly just because He does not treat the requests on their merit.

I suppose, then, that your pastor does not sanction prayers for others? There is no such list in your church that says, “Please pray for Mr. Heart Foam’s motherinlaw, who is scheduled for surgery on Monday? The prayers of a righteous man avails us much, folks! So righteous folks, please amp up your prayers!!”

 

[adf417]

A non-Catholic friend of mine challenged the Catholic Faith on a point today and I would like to see how you guys answer it. He himself is a non-denominational Christian. He believes that Catholicism places way too much emphasis on Marianism and that it seems that the Church has attempted to replace Christ as the mediator between God and man with Mary as the mediator. Thoughts?

To look at this another way is to say I think some non-Catholics place way too little emphasis on God/Jesus. Could it be possible that our love for Mary exceeds their love for God?

Peace!!!

 

[Heart_Foam]

What makes you think she’d have to be anything other than the person in Heaven that she is? Are people in Heaven more limited in their ability to hear prayers than we are on Earth when we pray for each other? Heaven has no “time”, as it were, so what limitation is there in hearing millions of prayers?

I’m not saying they are more limited at all. Just treat them as finite human beings. Heaven has no beginning and end, but to say that one moment does not follow another would be untrue.

ahs:

I asked this to someone recently, but it fits perfectly here now, so I will ask you: Do you suppose that you can determine what God can and cannot allow or to whom God can give power to? God gave power to Elisha’s bones to restore life (2Kgs 13:20-21).

Okay, 2 Kings 13:20-21:

Elisha died and was buried.

Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.

How is this power granted to Elisha? God performed a miracle.

ahs:

Do you think God can’t grant that a person can answer a simple prayer request, or millions of them?

Do you think God couldn’t set up Mary as owner of an adventure tourism company in South America? Of course He could have. Does it follow that because God can do a thing that He does in fact do it? No. It’s mere speculation.

ahs:

Do you think it’s more miraculous for a saint in Heaven to answer a prayer for healing [by God’s Power] than it was for Peter’s shadow to grant healing (Acts 5:15-16)?

How is this even slightly relevant? God performed a miracle. Not Peter’s shadow. But that case is documented and it happened. In the other case, you have no ground for believing saints hear you at all. I deny your premise, and speculating whether it would be a greater or lesser miracle is irrelevant. And how do you define a “miracle”? A working definition of postbiblical miracles might be that they are (1) public, and (2) naturally inexplicable. But in your case, it is not public, and you’re forced to presuppose something actually happened before you say it is inexplicable.

ahs:

Do you think it’s more unlikely to have a prayer [to any given saint] answered than it was to be cured by one of Paul’s facecloths (Acts 19:11-12)?

Well, the miracle in Acts is documented, and the apostles were granted special powers to perform signs and miracles (2 Corinthians 12:12). Having prayer to Mary or any saint answered is exponentially more unlikely because it doesn’t function as a miracle.

ahs:

What are the angels in Heaven doing in Revelation 5:8? Are they participating in something they should not be by offering our prayers to God, as though they are mediators of some sort? Was Raphael (Tob 12:12) participating in some sin by offering their prayers to God? And, if Christ was telling the Truth, that God is God of the living in Mk 12:26-27, then how is it different to ask prayers of those who have passed on before us? Are they LESS able, in their heavenly existence, to pray for us than they were here on earth? (Scriptural support for all assertions please.)

The Holy Spirit has led me to believe that Revelation provides exactly such an indication in Rev 5:8 and 6: 9-11. If the angels can offer up our prayers to God, and the dearly departed martyrs can plea for justice, why can’t they hear us? (Scriptural support, please.)

That sounds like private judgement. Give me something infallible. That question mark betrays the fact that this is speculative theology. Anyway, Revelation 5:8:

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Nothing there suggests the prayers were directed to the angels. Revelation 6:9-11:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

These saints are in heaven, and they are talking to God. And this proves? From Mark 12 you want to make the point that the saints are alive and conscious in heaven, but why do you think this necessarily implies they can hear prayer? Imagine a planet with two islands, one one each side of the planet, separated by thousands of miles of ocean. On each island is a person. A live, healthy person. And let’s say they don’t have any postal service, internet connection, or phone signal - pretend that stuff doesn’t exist. Does the mere fact that they are both alive mean that one can ask the other for prayer? Of course not. Being alive doesn’t of itself entail being able to hear every other person who is alive, but that’s what you do with your praying to Mary. That wouldn’t be a human ability, but super-human. So yes, let’s grant you that Mary is alive and conscious in heaven, does it follow from this that she can hear all millions of prayers? No.

 

[Heart_Foam]

ahs:

No one said she is. To say that she must be in order to hear a prayer is a non-sequitur, and is your burden to prove.

Non-sequitur?! It’s rather the logical consequence of your doctrine of praying to the saints that Mary is omniscient. I’m not the dogmatist here. I can’t prove a negative that she isn’t omniscient. It’s a logical absurdity that shifts the burden of proof, which is rightly yours. (Can you prove there* isn’t *an undetectable china teapot orbiting the earth?) I don’t have to make Catholic beliefs coherent.

ahs:

You are also limiting God, by this statement of yours, by saying that God cannot allow anyone to answer a prayer because only God has these attribute.

I’m not limiting God at all. I’m saying God doesn’t need a secretary. He is God. And you use the argument from ignorance; “I don’t know that x is not true, therefore it is”. If you’re going to accuse me of fallacies of informal logic, try not commit them yourself.

ahs:

Are you saying that God is not able to allow answered prayer through those who don’t have these attributes? Are you limiting God in what God can do? Was that you intention?
You have yet to establish that a person requires certain attributes in order to answer prayer. You’re going to have to explain away a lot of Scripture to attempt that, however. Do you suppose Paul’s facecloth has the attributes of God when it cured people of their ailments? Did Elisha’s bones have these attributes? Did Peter’s shadow?

You seem to miss the point, and then you equivocate. How many prayer requests could you handle at once? If Mary is going to handle millions at the same time, it necessarily follows that you attribute to her abilities that belong to God alone. There just isn’t a way out of that. I’m not sure you’re following the argument at all. Of course Paul’s cloth wasn’t magical and God could perform a miracle at His own discretion. But the facecloth wasn’t being used in a million places at once. Your argument is by comparison, and you don’t compare on the right points. If you disagree with me, by all means describe the characteristics of a being that can pray a million simultaneous prayers to God (can any human say more than one thing at once?), while listening to yet more prayers. You of necessity have to ascribe divinity to Mary. I feel like I’m asking something that most Catholics just haven’t thought about this way.
Heart Foam:

Thirdly, Catholicism presupposes that God answers prayer according to who is praying, as if that is an important criterion as opposed to asking in accordance with God’s will.

ahs:

Your assertion, you show the evidence for it, or retract it. Pertinent Catholic teaching from an authentic Catholic source that shows this, please.

Retract it? It’s the logical consequence of your doctrine. It’s implied at every turn that having Mary or a saint intercede is more likely to succeed. You wrote:
It’s as if you were a small child going to ask your father (the head of your family) for a favor, and your mother went with you and added to your request with, ‘yes, please let this be granted’.

Why doesn’t the kid go straight to his father? You imply the father is more likely to grant the same request just because someone else is asking. My point stands. KayCee even defended the very point. It’s evidenced by the empirical fact you believe in patron saints who you think are more effective in petitioning God for something under their purview than not. But, seen as you’ve taken issue with me, I suppose you either don’t believe in patron saints with special areas of influence, or will now recant that belief.

ahs:

Strawman and non-sequitur. No one has implied [that God is not perfectly just]. However, KayCee in Post #31 gave a great insight there into what Scripture says. Do you suppose Scripture is incorrect there?

No Catholic here had considered it, which is quite evident, but that doesn’t make my point a straw man or a non-sequitur. Again, you posted:
It’s as if you were a small child going to ask your father (the head of your family) for a favor, and your mother went with you and added to your request with, ‘yes, please let this be granted’.
Well, would the father have granted the same request without the extra arm-twisting? Catholics undeniably think it’s advantageous to go through saints, but no one wants to flesh out why. I say God is just and bringing Mary along would change nothing.

KayCee, I appreciate those quotes, but the righteous will be praying in accordance to God’s will, and the wicked won’t. The Bible also says “there is no one who is righteous, no not one” (Romans 3:10). So does James 5:16 describe a hypothetical situation that applies to no one? Of course not. Although no one is perfect, the prayer of the righteous is powerful so long as he is praying righteously. Otherwise, you would have to say that the wicked man could ask for something good, and wouldn’t get it; and the righteous man would ask for something bad and would get it. But that’s not right. God is just. Praying to Mary, thinking it improves one’s chances of a favorable outcome, undermines that.

And let the record show that no one engaged with the verses I posted. 1 John 5:14:
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
No one in Heaven has any greater access to God’s throne that we do through prayer. Hebrews 4:16:
Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

God bless all, good night. If I’m flooded by replies tomorrow, sigh, I just may not have the energy to reply.

Yours &c,
Stephen

 

[Heart_Foam]

Well, does being glorified in heaven equate to omniscience? On what ground do you speculate that Mary can speak a few million things at once? At any rate you imply that asking Mary is not like asking someone on earth to pray for you. So that popular defense is gone.

 

[PRmerger]

 

[PRmerger]

At any rate you imply that asking Mary is not like asking someone on earth to pray for you. So that popular defense is gone.

Of course it is.

There is NOTHING in Scripture which states that Mary cannot hear prayers on earth.

In fact we know that those in heaven are acutely aware of the happenings here.

And Scripture testifies that eye has not seen, nor ear heard, what God has ready for those who love Him.