The Church in Argentina has lost more than 13 per cent of its members in a decade, according to new study (Spanish report)

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En una década, la Iglesia católica perdió más del 13% de sus fieles en la Argentina​

Pasó de un 76,5% que se declaraba católico en 2008 a un 62,9% que lo hizo este año respecto de la población argentina. Los evangélicos crecieron levemente del 11,3% al 15,3%. Subieron fuerte los clasificados como “sin religión”, del 11,3% al 18,9%.​

Self-identified Catholics in 2008: 76.5%
Self-identified Catholics today: 62.9%

Evangelicals in 2008: 11.3%
Evangelicals today: 15.3%.

‘No religion’ in 2008: 11.3%
‘No religion’ today: 18.9%
 
I doubt Pope Francis would have had any positive effect on the numbers in his native country. Contrary to what many might think, he is a very polarizing figure in Argentina because many see him as using his office as Pope to lend support to corrupt leftist politicians there. Crux did a series where they got a wide range of opinions on the Pope in his homeland and if you think people here on CAF are uncharitable towards the Pope, well, some people in Argentina had worse things to say about him. I actually think he’s more popular in the U.S. than he is in his home country, despite the narrative pushed by progressive prelates in Rome that the U.S. Catholic Church is going to fall into schism any day now. This is probably a large part the reason why despite being almost 7 years into his papacy he hasn’t visited his home country of Argentina, despite having visited just about every country in South America but there.
 
I think U.S. popularity has alot to do with him making the Annulment processes “easier”.

The number of nullity decrees handed out in the States is gross.

The two previous popes warned of abuses in the tribunals. Francis didnt help those efforts.
 
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Is there a super conservative Catholic base in Argentina as well? If I’m not wrong, is there a Catholic right movement in Latin America including a traditionalist base, and as harsh as it sounds, are they limited to the upper classes (perhaps middle class) who aren’t as interested in social justice issues, that sounds uncharitable?
 
It is showing Catholics leaving the Church altogether.

I think it’s a deeper issue than Right or Left. It’s a matter of Church leaders having other priorities than educating the faith and pastoring families with strife. Streamlining the annulment system is far from pastoring families. But the U.S. sure likes it.
 
He made the annulment process quicker (not easier) plus he eliminated unnecessary appeals. The decision process for determining the sacramentality of a marriage hasn’t been compromised 1 iota.
 
The process is not to “determine the Sacramentality of marriage” but to scrutinize with ever widening “evidence” of grounds a supposed impediment to the Sacrament.

It has been compromised rather rapidly over the last 50 years. That’s why the last two Popes criticized the process as being abused.

With the twist of a single sentence in a witness statement prepared by a canon lawyer, circumstantial evidence can be considered proof these days. And who will contest, when both of the couple has already given up on efforts to do the right thing? I’ve seen the way priests have treated these situations. They are full of compromises before it even gets to the point of a tribunal. Then the tribunal swoops in with their power of decree and appears to be the hero.

Well its falling apart. It’s not working, because it’s an attempt at the back end of marriage pastoring.

So the domestic Church is being broken down, and everything breaks down after that.
 
The last two Popes have.

And objective study of the process, statistics, and first hand experience of deceptions involved.
 
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And how does speeding a process exclude a faster “ no” as well?
 
That it seems you understand that speeding a process has facilitated more annulments, when speeding it up may very well mean a faster “ no”, cannot be done.
Also, if it helps, I have repeatedly stated as a means to give an idea, that I have only known of two ( and heard of a third) annulments in my whole life. It isn’t that it is as common as one may suppose abroad,nor accessible in practical terms, nor that easily accepted personally.(married for over 30 years and counting so no beef here in this topic)
 
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I said the abuse already existed before Francis, and that he did not help the abuse, but only made it easier for a Catholic to receive this process.

Do you think the last two Popes didnt know what they were talking about then?

The point is that efforts should be made long before a tribunal. I even know a Catholic marriage counselor (for 30 years) who advises couples to go to Protestant pastors because Catholic pastors dont know how to pastor their situations. (Btw, I disagree, for the most part to send them to Protestant pastors. Although I wouldnt say it is completely wrong no matter what.)
 
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Ammi said:
I said the abuse already existed before Francis, and that he did not help the abuse, but only made it easier for a Catholic to receive this process.
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Yes, to “ start” the process and get a faster answer that may include “ no grounds for anullment “ just faster.If necessary, that is what I meant.
One has to understand also that there are people who do not have the easy access to technology, money and distances to travel, not to mention hardly being able to write and read , to whom this process was nearly unthinkable if not unknown…These cases merit attention and respect as well.
Blunter still: it has never been a topic of conversation or mentioning around me,ever, so this isn’t personal…
Of course I understand abuse and what previous Popes have said…

“Ammi said:
The point is that efforts should be made long before a tribunal.
[/]
Agree. Family takes a lot of effort worth it. And pre marriage help.
Click to expand...
 
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Access, money, location is what the United States has. Argentina probably not so much. So wouldnt Argentina like his efforts?

Is he making a positive impact in these areas where he is supposedly helping? Is streamlining the marriage tribunal process helping the faithful? Is telling pastors they have the authority to give Eucharist to someone in an objective situation of adultery?

These are legalistic approaches that afford clergy and humans in positions of authority more power to make decisions. It has little to do with training them to pastor.
 
The article states that 82% of respondents consider the arrival of Pope Francis didn’t impact significantly in their beliefs.
If this is to be trusted and it covers a decade, there is your answer.
As for assumptions, I ‘ll abstain.
 
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RCIAGraduate said:
Is there a super conservative Catholic base in Argentina as well? If I’m not wrong, is there a Catholic right movement in Latin America including a traditionalist base, and as harsh as it sounds, are they limited to the upper classes (perhaps middle class) who aren’t as interested in social justice issues, that sounds uncharitable?
Click to expand...
The impression I get is that it’s similar in some ways to the right vs. left dynamic that you see in the U.S., though I don’t know if Argentina has a strong traditionalist movement. I would guess that it wouldn’t be much of a force there, but I don’t know. Some people though are just mad at him for not visiting Argentina yet, and now that it’s been confirmed that Pope Francis won’t be visiting in 2020, I’m guessing it’s just going to fuel more resentment towards him there. I think if he doesn’t go home within the next 3-5 of years, he may never go back. He can only have about 5 more years or so left where he’s able to keep up such an intense travel schedule.

The Crux articles I referenced was here:

cruxnow.com

God love ’em, Argentines just can’t help criticizing their Pope

Ironically, few Argentines who willingly give an opinion on their pope have actually read anything he’s said, seen any of his monthly prayer videos or even follow him on Twitter.
cruxnow.com cruxnow.com

cruxnow.com

‘Francis effect’ in Argentina’s alternate reality a mix of light and shadows

After being away from my home country of Argentina for the past five years, only going back to visit with the family for Christmas and the odd long weekend, I decided to avoid Rome’s scorching summer this year and head back on a reporting mission to take the country’s temperature regarding my...
cruxnow.com cruxnow.com

George Neumayr also wrote an article about his impressions of Argentinians’ opinions about Pope Francis:

Why Pope Francis Hasn’t Visited Argentina - The American Spectator | USA News and PoliticsThe American Spectator | USA News and Politics

Last Saturday, I arrived in chilly Buenos Aires. I am sure it is just a coincidence, but my arrival coincided with the collapse of the peso. A dollar goes a
spectator.org spectator.org
 
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