The Church in the Americas and the Great Apostasy

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Well, if he was trying to save the lives of those in the same room with him, why did he start shooting?
For the same reason, obviously.

If you can manage to stop thinking of JS as you’ve been taught, as some sort of enemy of Catholicism (in fact I’m not sure that he even ever met a Catholic) then I think you will recognize that your description does him wrong.
 
And why did JS not just surrender, tell the mob…he surrenders, and to spare his friends…and do with him as they please?
It is hard to talk over the sound of two hundred guns, Pablope. At this point I can kind of identify.
 
If I remember correctly in thethread Soren mentioned someone (maybe Parker) did say something along theselines. Again if IRC the*“raise up seed unto me”
  • was not about population increase but about raising righteous, committed children.
I don’t always respond to everything I ought to, but I should definitely have replied to Parker on that. In my posts, I pushed a sociological case against polygamy, since the Mormon I was speaking to was claiming that polygamy was good for population increase. Yet I made clear that I intended a moral argument as well, about the relative value that a polygamous lifestyle places upon the parents of a child. Because propriety in childbearing presupposes respect for the mutual dignity of the parents, then to make an argument about raising righteous children is premature until one has shown that the dignity of the parents is protected in polygamy. Until that is done, the defender of polygamy has no foundation to make any further argument.

I stated at the outset that polygamy offends the chastity of women. The reduction of female fertility was one clear example of how it offends them. Remember that here I mean “chastity” in the broadest sense, that is, the dignity proper to a woman as a mother or potential mother. Polygamy offends this dignity because it assumes that male fertility has a higher value than female: Brigham Young thought he pleased God by having lots more children than other men, but never commented on (or ever considered?) the implications of his polygamy for the number of children his wives could have. This male preferentialism makes polygamy an intrinsically disordered marital structure, and it is therefore not an appropriate setting to raise children, righteous or otherwise. Thus the Mormon justification of polygamy fails, even if “raising up seed” is understood of raising children spiritually.

But don’t take it from me. The gospel speaks for itself on this. One very overlooked teaching in the Bible (at least among non-Catholics) is that women are equal to men as spiritual forbears. Catholics who know their Mariology already know how this is implied in verses like Gen 3:15, Luke 1:42-43, etc. Yet the single text most relevant to Mormon claims is overlooked by virtually everyone. It is Hebrews 11:11, which the KJV mistranslates: “Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed.” Before I explain the correct translation of this text, and explain its importance, let’s look back at the story of Abraham and Sarah.

The Mormon commandment of plural marriage was traditionally known as the “Law of Abraham.” The theological claim is that God commanded Abraham to take multiple wives. D&C 132:34 reads:
God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
It should be obvious upon a careful reading of Gen 17 and Gal 4 that the birth of Ishmael and his ancestry of a nation did not fulfill God’s promises to Abraham. In Gen 17, God denies Abraham’s request to incorporate Ishmael into his family covenant (17:21), although covenant inclusion was the essence of God’s promise. (17:7) Moreover, in Gal 4:23, Paul distinguishes Ishmael and Isaac because Isaac was born “of the promise” and Ishmael was not. Yet how could this happen if God had commanded Abraham to take Hagar to fulfill “the promises”? The answer is that God’s promise was for Abraham and Sarah to bear children. By giving Hagar to Abraham, Sarah prompts him into an act of unbelief. The consequence is a twofold punishment: Ishmael and Hagar become outcasts, and God makes Abraham renew his covenant by circumcising himself at the age of 90 – a penitential covenant form, which mortifies the part of Abraham’s body that he used to offend God in becoming a bigamist. Hence, the story of Abraham actually opposes polygamy. In particular, it shows that polygamy was not the way that God appointed for Abraham to raise up seed for him.

St. Paul, aware of all this, and knowing that only Abraham’s descendants through Sarah were “of the promise,” sees Sarah’s spiritual paternity as equal to Abraham’s. But what do I mean by “Sarah’s spiritual paternity”? Isn’t she a mother? That is why I brought up Heb 11:11. To make clear why this verse is important, I will give it in my own strictly literal translation of the relevant section of Heb 11:11:
By faith, sterile Sarah received power to cast sperm.
The difference between this and the KJV is the difference between begetting and conceiving. The Hebrew language sharply distinguishes male and female procreative acts. Both male “begetting” and female “conception” are indicated by the same verb, but it has a completely different pattern of conjugation for each; there is a conceptual difference that makes it utterly impossible to ever confuse them. Consequently, for Paul to use a plainly masculine description of Sarah as a begetter would strike his Hebrew readers as a remarkable claim. In the first place, it shows that Paul is considering Sarah here as a spiritual ancestor, since “to cast sperm” cannot be literal for her. But it also shows that in terms of spiritual parenting, there is no distinction between her and Abraham, either in degree or in kind. God, when he swore to raise up seed to Abraham, had Sarah equally in mind. That equality of the parents is foundational to the family form that God desires as the means to grow his family. The transgression of those parents in seeking a different, polygamous way to raise up seed brought about misfortune so that they had to renew themselves in faith for the true promise to be fulfilled as God had intended.
 
Zaffro:
Again if IRC the"raise up seed unto me"
was not about population increase but about raising righteous, committed children.
Wow, that’s a strong answer. Didn’t expect you to be the one offering a defense of late 19th century LDS polygamy, 😉

I’d add that if that was God’s purpose, then clearly there’s no sense in arguing that it’s bad based on the modern inbred pligs like Warren Jeffs. If the purpose was to raise up seed to the Lord, then there’s no reason that Jeffs might not use it to raise up seed for the devil.,
 
It is hard to talk over the sound of two hundred guns, Pablope. At this point I can kind of identify.
JS started shooting first, did he not? He provoked the shooting…do you think the mob would have shot back if he had raised his hands in surrender, first?
 
JS started shooting first, did he not?
No.

Since you apparently were taught that he did, then I readily forgive your other incorrect assumptions.

You don’t need to believe that Joseph Smith was a good person, or a martyr, to be saved. I see no need to argue the point. If you care to look up the accurate history of what happened, you’ll eventually come to see that it’s kind of silly to even imagine that one guy with a single pistol given him (by the jailkeeper who was disgusted by the plot to murder JS, but not willing to die protecting him) would single-handedly attack a mob of 200 gun-toting southern militia, who had come to the jail with their faces painted black, intent on murdering JS.

Even if I were to change faiths and renounce mormonism, this would be a losing argument, because I’m a lawyer and committed to truth and human dignity, and what happened to JS was wrong. You will not convince LDS people on this point, Pablope. A good Catholic might still believe that JS was murdered unjustly. Why make this argument?
 
Wow, that’s a strong answer. Didn’t expect you to be the one offering a defense of late 19th century LDS polygamy, 😉

I’d add that if that was God’s purpose, then clearly there’s no sense in arguing that it’s bad based on the modern inbred pligs like Warren Jeffs. If the purpose was to raise up seed to the Lord, then there’s no reason that Jeffs might not use it to raise up seed for the devil.,
It’s not my defense it’s Parkers’s (or who ever made it in the thread) I agree with Soren on this, I’m very glad she came back and explained how I regard polygamy. Soren is always awesome!
 
Pablope, they came to murder him. White flag of surrender? He had already surrendered. He was in jail already, on a trumped up charge of “treason.” And the Carthage troops painted their faces black and came with the specific intent to murder him. There were bullets flying through the window, up the stairs, through the door … what you say isn’t feasible.

The pistol slowed down the mob, since there was narrow staircase leading from downstairs up to the room where JS and his friends were. If it were not for the pistol, then Willard Richards and John Taylor would almost certainly have been murdered as well.

“It is that JS death is being brandied as some kind of martyrdom”

Really? Who has done that here? I don’t see mormons pushing their views on JS’ martyrdom on others.
 
Based on what I read, Smith shot first…from non Lds sources…
That’s funny, since there isn’t a single non-LDS person that’s admitted to being there. The nice jail guard wasn’t there – he warned JS that the mob was coming to kill him, he gave JS his own gun, and left. And the mob painted their faces black because their intent was murder and they did not want to be identified.

If Smith had shot first, having been told that the mob was coming to kill him, and seeing them coming in with guns, with their faces painted black, that would still clearly be defense of his friends.
 
no mormon has ever been able to give me a clear precise answer to my question: What was the EXACT year of the apostasy? And why would CHRIST abandon his church for 1800 years? The answer is there was NO APOSTASY! And Christ has NEVER abandoned his Church. He also never went to North America…he ascended into Heaven 40 days after his Resurrection. He didn’t take a detour to North America. Why would he? He had much to do in Heaven before his 2nd Coming.
Good questions, but it sounds like you already have the answers you are looking for.🤷
 
One thing I find particularly interesting about Mormon teaching is that God had a plan for the new world, and it only seems fitting that it would be so. I’m not a Mormon, but why wouldn’t Jesus have visited North America? Did he not also have people there, that could have benefited to learn about him, and not be forcefully converted by the Spanish?
Good point. 🙂 Our Catholic friends won’t agree with this, but Jesus told this to the Jews when he said to them: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:14-16)
 
Stephen168 You’re absolutely right about the HOOK.

Man-made groups use the HOOK that the RCC has fallen away & is the Great Harlot & PROP up their attacks with “GOD’S” pronouncements & “cherry picking”. The theological & biblical illiterate are ripe pickin’s & it’s soooo convenient to make false, blanket claims about the RCC - People do not do their research, especially C & E’s, “lite” Catholics; tragically fall victim to often vicious theologically challenged claims.
I can understand how ‘cherry picking’ quotes in an attempt to change history might help them attract non-Catholics but it would seem to me that a Catholic (even C&Es), who were interested in history, would know Mormons do not have the truth of history. The only Catholic (marginal, not attending mass ever) I knew who converted to Mormonism was the result of love bombing. He could not tell me one intellectual reason why he did it.
Critical to RESEARCH. Ex. The Faith of the Early Fathers, 3 volume series by William A. Jurgens is phenomenal; 1000’s of writings extant from the Didache (80 AD) to 9th century in many different languages that absolutely torpedo often promulgated astonishingly silly claims.
I have volume one of William A. Jurgens’ series. It cover’s the first 350 years of early Christian writing.
What is interesting on the subject of ‘cherry picking’ is that Jurgens does not provide the complete documents and only quotes the early church. But when you go to the original documents, we see that Jurgens did not change the mean of the original author. Jugens quotes in context. Mormons do not. I have seen them ‘cherry pick’ quotes to claim the opposite meaning intended by the original author. The ellipsis is their best friend.

As a fact of history there was no great apostasy. Even James Talmage in his book ‘Great Apostasy,’ could not tell us when it happened. He could not tell us, because it didn’t happen. Mormons can only try to make it happen by ‘cherry picking’ quotes from unsuspecting authors to satisfy a predetermined belief.
 
The only Catholic (marginal, not attending mass ever) I knew who converted to Mormonism was the result of love bombing. He could not tell me one intellectual reason why he did it.
That article suggests that Mormons intentionally use male missionaries to attract young women? That’s ludicrous. When I was a missionary, we were specifically instructed to pass over young female investigators to the sister missionaries to avoid that sort of crush developing.

Stephen, if that’s the only Catholic person that you ever saw converted to “mormonism,” then do you spend so much time writing about us?
 
That’s funny, since there isn’t a single non-LDS person that’s admitted to being there. The nice jail guard wasn’t there – he warned JS that the mob was coming to kill him, he gave JS his own gun, and left. And the mob painted their faces black because their intent was murder and they did not want to be identified.

If Smith had shot first, having been told that the mob was coming to kill him, and seeing them coming in with guns, with their faces painted black, that would still clearly be defense of his friends.
The truth is, JS was expecting his militia to save him as they had done so many times in the past when he was in a tight spot with the law, but this time they failed (or refused) to show up in time. IIRC (it’s been a while since I read about it) many of that mob were actually his own people that had turned against him because he was stealing their wives and daughters, while claiming that God told him to do it. They believed that he had gone beyond the pale on that and decided that he was a false prophet, and needed to be dealt with as such. Because of his preaching so much about ‘blood atonement’, maybe they just figured they were doing him a favor by ‘spilling his blood’ to save him from his sin. I suppose he didn’t really understand the teaching when Jesus said to Peter: “Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.”

Peter never took up the sword, again, as his own cruel martyrdom testifies. He truly understood what Jesus had taught him. “John 15:13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” That’s what all true martyrs of Jesus Christ are willing to do. They’re willing to follow the example that He gave them and lay down their lives rather than deny their faith in Him. Their own holy example of faith wins many more souls as a result of their sacrifice. Often times, even the executioners and soldiers that attended were moved to repentance by the martyr’s courage, and converted on the spot, often becoming martyrs themselves in the process. That’s why it’s so repugnant for Catholics to hear JS referred to as a martyr for dying as he did, because his actions were the complete antithesis of true Christian martyrdom. I mean no disrespect, but if that’s truly how Mormons define martyrdom, then it’s just one more example of the immense gulf between the teachings of LDS and Christianity. Is it really any wonder that we have such a hard time understanding each other? 😦
 
Because of his preaching so much about ‘blood atonement’, maybe they just figured they were doing him a favor by ‘spilling his blood’ to save him from his sin. 😦
Telstar, JS never taught the "Blood atonement’ heresy. That wasn’t taught until more than a decade after JS’ death. Jedediah Grant, the one who came up with that monstrosity, was in his mother’s womb when JS was murdered.

The “Blood Atonement” and “Adam-God” heresies are a product of a period called the “Mormon Reformation” which was born out of paranoia and isolation. Fortunately the Quorum of the Twelve never approved those doctrines, and the Church has since unanimously taken the position that they are false. I know someone that’s been disfellowshipped from the church for believing in them.

I think you’ve got a number of facts wrong on what happened with JS, and I don’t think that you’ve thought the matter through fairly. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I don’t want to argue this out or bring the facts forward, because I don’t think I’m going to get a remotely fair hearing on this issue here.

I might agree that JS was not a “religious” martyr. I tend to see him more as a martyr for religious freedom.
. Often times, even the executioners and soldiers that attended were moved to repentance by the martyr’s courage, and converted on the spot, often becoming martyrs themselves in the process.
Yes. In JS’ case, the guard who was ordered to keep JS in place to be murdered, refused the order, and instead gave JS his gun and left. Not quite as dramatic as what you described, but it’s in the ballpark.
 
Telstar, JS never taught the "Blood atonement’ heresy. That wasn’t taught until more than a decade after JS’ death. Jedediah Grant, the one who came up with that monstrosity, was in his mother’s womb when JS was murdered.

The “Blood Atonement” and “Adam-God” heresies are a product of a period called the “Mormon Reformation” which was born out of paranoia and isolation. Fortunately the Quorum of the Twelve never approved those doctrines, and the Church has since unanimously taken the position that they are false. I know someone that’s been disfellowshipped from the church for believing in them.

I think you’ve got a number of facts wrong on what happened with JS, and I don’t think that you’ve thought the matter through fairly. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I don’t want to argue this out or bring the facts forward, because I don’t think I’m going to get a remotely fair hearing on this issue here.

I might agree that JS was not a “religious” martyr. I tend to see him more as a martyr for religious freedom.

Yes. In JS’ case, the guard who was ordered to keep JS in place to be murdered, refused the order, and instead gave JS his gun and left. Not quite as dramatic as what you described, but it’s in the ballpark.
I apologize if I got some of the facts about the ‘blood atonement’ wrong, but I was under the impression that it was one of the things that he originally instituted as the ‘blood oath’ taken in temple ceremonies, as a requirement for people to take the oath when converting to Mormonism. It seems that it was used more under Brigham Young’s reign as a prophet. I thought I had read about it being used, at that point in time. According to this, Joseph Smith did originally institute it as an oath. But, it looks like Brigham Young was the one that embellished on its meaning as being literal, as well as encouraging its actual use by members of the church. I don’t really know if Joseph Smith realized that his introduction of such a horrible oath would ever be taken literally by others or not, but it seems like his idea of copying that oath from freemasonry certainly backfired when some of his followers decided to take it very seriously. That’s one of the problems with having people believe that someone is an actual ‘prophet’. They will always tend to take everything that he says, quite literally, even when they might find it to be against their own concsience. 😦

In Mormonism, blood atonement is a controversial doctrine that teaches that murder is so heinous that the atonement of Jesus does not apply. Thus, in order to atone for these sins, the perpetrators must have their blood shed upon the ground as a sacrificial offering. The concept was originally taught by Brigham Young, though it appears to be an expansion on the previous teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr. Within Mormon fundamentalism, the concept of blood atonenment is still recognized. In contrast, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) has stated that "the so-called ‘blood atonement,’ by which individuals would be required to shed their own blood to pay for their sins, is not a doctrine of [the LDS Church]."

Either way, I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree about this one. I’ve seen many protestants refer to some of their fellows that were killed for political reasons as ‘martyrs’, too. They, also, seem to confuse the fact that a true martyr refers to someone that is given a choice, either to convert to another faith and deny their own in order to fully embrace the other, or, to face the death penalty for refusing to do so. The Christian martyrs in ancient times were the ones that stood their ground and refused to deny Jesus in the face of the death penalty. Not all that were given that choice were that courageous. Some of them were not willing to make that ultimate sacrifice and die for Christ, but, the ones that did are very powerful Saints in Heaven.
 
That’s funny, since there isn’t a single non-LDS person that’s admitted to being there. The nice jail guard wasn’t there – he warned JS that the mob was coming to kill him, he gave JS his own gun, and left. And the mob painted their faces black because their intent was murder and they did not want to be identified.

If Smith had shot first, having been told that the mob was coming to kill him, and seeing them coming in with guns, with their faces painted black, that would still clearly be defense of his friends.
Self defense of his friends or of himself?

Knowing an angry mob on the way, is it the smart thing to single single pistol? and thus invite shots from the other side…thereby endangering your friends further? And jump out the window to boot…

Or is it rather smart…to meet the mob, surrender peacefully, pray for their forgiveness…thereby die down their anger…ask them to spare your friends and take all the blame…and willingly go to the slaughter…as the example of St. Thomas More?
 
The truth is, JS was expecting his militia to save him as they had done so many times in the past when he was in a tight spot with the law, but this time they failed (or refused) to show up in time.
Their own holy example of faith wins many more souls as a result of their sacrifice. Often times, even the executioners and soldiers that attended were moved to repentance by the martyr’s courage, and converted on the spot, often becoming martyrs themselves in the process.
 
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