The Church in the Americas and the Great Apostasy

[Cowboy_Pete]

As other Catholic have told you; The Catholic Church has NEVER taught that unbaptized children are hellbound.

That’s right; I never said otherwise.
"christianley:

The Catholic Church never taught that unbaptized infants were hell bound.Yes, that’s why I said “1993 clarification in your catechism” rather than the “change in your doctrine.”

Pete:

that’s why I said “1993 clarification in your catechism” rather than the “change in your doctrine.” Lots of mormons, and some Catholics, believed that the Catholic Church’s position was that unbaptized infants were hellbound. Your 1993 clarification corrected the record.

n the 1970’s, my Mormon friends told me that the Mormon Church gave lots of money to Catholic charities to help fight poverty overseas.

I haven’t heard it, but it wouldn’t surprise me. What was very surprising to me, was when we started getting announcements each year in General Conference that the church was giving a portion of our tithes to Catholic Charities. That started in 1993. Maybe you can’t understand or don’t care to understand why yearly official declarations about the dispositions of actual tithes would be a big difference, but I thought it was very significant. Understand that our church has stayed completely away from all the Ecumenical councils, etc. Prior to 1993, I’d seen almost as much negative jabber among mormons about Catholics as I see vice versa here. Now it’s pretty rare.

 

[KathleenGee]

Cowboy Pete,

You say now the Mormons are discovering the early church fathers…what they are doing is not comprehending what the early Church fathers are teaching but rather focusing on partaking of the divinization in Christ…

It is coming to the fact that the Mormons are misinterpreting the Church Fathers and making them out to be what they are not.

The Mormon Church cannot grasp the Incarnation which precedes our partaking of Divine Grace in the Eucharist and sacraments in communion with one another.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Cowboy Pete,

You say now the Mormons are discovering the early church fathers…

no, I’m only one Mormon. Some mormons discovered them long ago, some still don’t know about them. I was speaking for myself. The guy that introduced me to them was actually a former Orthodox priest who joined the church when I was at BYU.

Other mormons, such as Brian33 on this forum, have came to the same conclusions that I did without reading the Church Fathers.

But for me Anasthasius was the key.

 

[OHCAC]

shrug. The Jews would say that you do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. What would you say to them?

I’m not sure that’s true. I’m not an expert on this but do have several devout Jewish friends who think Catholics do worship the God of Abraham, etc - they just don’t accept that Jesus is part of the Godhead. They also have no desire to be baptized - their “baptism” was their circumcision.

Do Catholics use the sacramental phrase “having been commissioned of Jesus Christ”?

Been to many baptisms - Catholic and EV - never heard those words used.

If so, then how can the issue focus purely on your perceived compatibility of beliefs, rather than on authority from God?

Who’s saying it does? It is focused on the authority from God to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But as pointed out to you, the Church believes that based on what they’ve learned from the LDS Church (they didn’t make this up) that the God you worship is not the God of the Bible. So baptizing in the name of LDS gods is not a valid baptism. Protestant/EV’s (at least most) believe in the triune God of the Bible, so their baptism is valid - for the Catholic church.

I have to say I’m nonplussed by your seeming incredulity in your post. Isn’t it the case that if I wanted to convert to the LDS church that you would not accept my outside-the-LDS baptism and would want me to be baptized again? If that’s incorrect, my bad. If not, then what’s the rancor about?

If the Pope holds Peter’s Keys to bind in heaven, then how can anyone perform a valid holy sacrament while denying the Pope’s authority?

I’m lost - who’s denying the Pope’s authority - certainly not Catholics. I’m no expert on this but I think there may be some Protestant churches that would re-baptism a Catholic convert and certainly some EV churches that would. And, if what I said above is correct, the LDS church. Is that what you mean by denying the Pope’s authority?

 

[Stephen168]

What was very surprising to me, was when we started getting announcements each year in General Conference that the church was giving a portion of our tithes to Catholic Charities. That started in 1993.

Then my Mormon friends lied to me.

 

[Stephen168]

I’m not sure that’s true.

I don’t think it is either. Mormons seem to say that often, and I’ve never understood how that makes them Christian.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Then my Mormon friends lied to me.

No, I doubt they lied. Like I said, there’s a big difference between the church using various funds (such as the fast offering which is set aside specifically for the poor) through various Catholic agencies, versus the church announcing in General Conference that it’s using our *tithes *through Catholic Charities.

The church doesn’t make lots of proclamations. Mormons, like a lot of Catholics I know (including some on this site) do a lot of reading into official church pronouncements. (Heck, just look at all the yammering set off against mormons based on the single Papal word “negative” with regard to LDS baptism ). Both our churches know this, so they are fairly guarded with their remarks.

18 years of yearly General Conference announcements that the Catholic Church was being entrusted with a portion of our tithes to carry out part of the key charitable mission of our church, is an enormous statement of trust and confidence. That’s what my point was. In no way does it mean that our church never worked with you before. Your friends were probably telling the truth.

OHCAC:

I’m not sure that’s true. I’m not an expert on this but do have several devout Jewish friends who think Catholics do worship the God of Abraham,

Yes, some of them do say that. But most of the Orthodox Jews I know, and a substantial number of Conservative and Reform Jews, will say you worship a totally different god than they do. You want me to go invite some from other sites? Or I can point you to the sites where they lurk.

Or just go to some orthodox Jewish site (try a Chabad site if you really want your ears singed ) and ask them if they think that Catholics worship the same God as the Jews worship.
OHAC:

It is focused on the authority from God to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. [snip the stuff about the Catholic view of LDS baptism which does not relate to my question at all]

dang I thought for a moment you were going to answer my question, but then you went off on mormon baptisms.

I have to say I’m nonplussed by your seeming incredulity in your post.

That must be because you don’t understand what I’m asking.

Isn’t it the case that if I wanted to convert to the LDS church that you would not accept my outside-the-LDS baptism and would want me to be baptized again?

Of course we don’t recognize yours, and you should not recognize ours, either, because of our differing views on authority. Why do you think that’s what I’m incredulous about? I’ve got no problem at all with your refusal to recognize our baptism. It’s a moot point!

What I don’t understand, and what no one has answered, is why you do recognize the authority to baptize by priests who don’t even accept your Pope’s authority. How could they exercise an authority which they don’t even recognize?

 

[Stephen168]

Your friends were probably telling the truth.

Then you lied

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Then you lied

I take it you’re not the brightest light on the tree here.

Anyone else want to resolve this conundrum for poor Stev1e? It’s not that complicated. Pre-1993, possibly some collaboration and investment; post-1993, definite annual proclamations that tithes are being invested through Catholic Charities.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I take it you’re not the brightest light on the tree here.

Anyone else want to resolve this conundrum for poor Stev1e? It’s not that complicated. Pre-1993, possibly some collaboration and investment; post-1993, definite annual proclamations that tithes are being invested through Catholic Charities.

I think you would need to point out that the LDS Church does not disclose where its tithing funds go, so that is what makes the “proclamations” so unique.

Also pre-1993, you really wouldn’t know, and post-1993, you really can’t know how much, because, well, you don’t know.

 

[OHCAC]

18 years of yearly General Conference announcements that the Catholic Church was being entrusted with a portion of our tithes to carry out part of the key charitable mission of our church, is an enormous statement of trust and confidence.

I think that’s great and you’ll get good value for your investment - Catholic Charities does great work - thanks!

Yes, some of them do say that. But most of the Orthodox Jews I know, and a substantial number of Conservative and Reform Jews, will say you worship a totally different god …

So it’s your Jews vs. my Jews - is that the game? :slapfight: And that would accomplish what…?

dang I thought for a moment you were going to answer my question, but then you went off on mormon baptisms.

Apparently I did miss it - my bad.

Of course we don’t recognize yours, and you should not recognize ours, either, because of our differing views on authority. Why do you think that’s what I’m incredulous about? I’ve got no problem at all with your refusal to recognize our baptism. It’s a moot point! What I don’t understand, and what no one has answered, is why you do recognize the authority to baptize by priests who don’t even accept your Pope’s authority. How could they exercise an authority which they don’t even recognize?

Your response regarding what Jews believe was in response to FabiusMaximus’s post regarding why the Catholic church does not recognize LDS baptism. It struck me as you having an issue with that point - that we don’t recognize LDS baptism. I have worked with, known and know many LDS and when this subject comes up the response I’ve received from all of them, that I recall, was that they were incredulous that the Catholic church would not accept an LDS baptism. And then saying, as you have, that of course, the LDS do not accept our baptism - or that of any church. I was putting you in that same camp - I appreciate you understanding now why we don’t.

As far as the question about authority I hope that has now been answered for you on the other thread just started.

One other thought is that you might use this site for research in addition to participating in the forums. If you click on the Faith tab at the top of the website when you open the site and then do a Search on your question you’ll usually find a good response. If the article has an imprimatur at the bottom it’s telling you that the content of the article is true to the teaching of the Church. This will often answer many of your questions - or get you farther down the road than initially starting at the forum.

Thanks for you thoughts!

 

[rinnie]

I guess you either accept or reject the words of Christ.

Jesus said I am sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost to lead the Church until the end of age.

Now if you reject those words then you will say that the Holy Spirit left the Church and Christ left us orphans. When he said he would not.

So to make a LONG story short you better start taking out much of the bible. Because the word of GOd states diffferently.

You either follow Jesus CHrist who said it would never happen or J Smith who said it did.

Then look around is the CC still here? YEP!!

 

[FabiusMaximus]

What’s a triad? We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three persons, but that they comprise one God, because they are one in mind. See John chapter 17.

A triad is essentially an office of three gods. If I recall correctly, Joseph Smith taught that the Godhead which we call the Trinity is in reality three gods. We have God the Father, who had sex with a goddess to have Jesus, and then the Holy Spirit is a third entity.

Additionally, Jesus in Mormonism is clearly created. He has a beginning. To us that is a form of idolatry.

shrug. The Jews would say that you do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. What would you say to them?

But none of that is material to my question of authority.

Do Catholics use the sacramental phrase “having been commissioned of Jesus Christ”?

If so, then how can the issue focus purely on your perceived compatibility of beliefs, rather than on authority from God?

If the Pope holds Peter’s Keys to bind in heaven, then how can anyone perform a valid holy sacrament while denying the Pope’s authority?

I haven’t heard many Jews actually affirm that we worship different gods, but you do make a good point. I don’t know how I’d answer. Probably that prophecy has been predicting the arrival of Jesus since Moses. But then again I also think the Old Testament clearly implies a sort of plurality in the Godhead, while confirming the overall Oneness. Mormonism seems to directly contradict various parts of both the Old and New Testament.

• I’ve never heard of that phrase, but I’m not Catholic, so perhaps one of them might answer.
• Regarding the papacy - Because the Catholic Church believes that those Christians who are not in communion with Rome are “spiritually” and “invisibly” though “partially” untied with the Roman Catholic Church. Additionally, the Church, if I’m correct, provides circumstances in which non-clergymen may perform baptisms, even if the instance is rare.

I would assume some very ultratraditionalist Catholics might see that baptism as invalid. But I think since we are all being baptized into the same name, with the same formula, to the same God (which Mormons do not accept), then it is valid.

OHCAC also made a good point:
why should other Christians accept an LDS baptism if you do not accept ours?

 

[BartBurk]

OHCAC also made a good point:
why should other Christians accept an LDS baptism if you do not accept ours?

There are a lot of groups who Catholics would see as Christian who don’t accept Catholic baptism. Anyone who rejects infant baptism or only immersion would be in that category.

 

[BartBurk]

I guess you either accept or reject the words of Christ.

Jesus said I am sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost to lead the Church until the end of age.

Now if you reject those words then you will say that the Holy Spirit left the Church and Christ left us orphans. When he said he would not.

So to make a LONG story short you better start taking out much of the bible. Because the word of GOd states diffferently.

You either follow Jesus CHrist who said it would never happen or J Smith who said it did.

Then look around is the CC still here? YEP!!

That’s not really a hard one for Mormons to answer. Christ restored the church eventually even though it apostatized so Jesus kept his promise.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I have never even suggested that Catholics should accept LDS baptism. And I’ve said nothing about how other Christians should conduct their churches. Why do so many of you insist on acting as if I’d made such an argument?

OHCAC also made a good point:
why should other Christians accept an LDS baptism if you do not accept ours?

OK, so you want to turn a holy sacrament into an issue of political reciprocity?

Again, why are you talking about this?

I don’t care if you accept our baptism. Your Church’s official statements re the LDS church are entirely respectful.

What does bother me is the number of Catholics on this forum who parrot the Evangelical line about Mormons not being Christians. **Those statements are not from your Church leadership, nor are they remotely consistent with the dignity and spirit in which your leaders speak of us. ** Some nominal Catholics have gone way off the reservation against us. But there I’m bringing in baggage from other threads, so sorry.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

There are a lot of groups who Catholics would see as Christian who don’t accept Catholic baptism. Anyone who rejects infant baptism or only immersion would be in that category.

That’s because they see baptism has a different purpose.
Catholics believe that baptism has regenerative significance - it literally washes away sins. For an Evangelical Christian, credobaptism is merely a profession of faith. It’s the Evangelical “Confirmation” to an extent.

For the record, I don’t really agree with the rejection of a Catholic baptism.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I have never even suggested that Catholics should accept LDS baptism. And I’ve said nothing about how other Christians should conduct their churches. Why do so many of you insist on acting as if I’d made such an argument?

OK, so you want to turn a holy sacrament into an issue of political reciprocity?

Again, why are you talking about this?

I don’t care if you accept our baptism. Your Church’s official statements re the LDS church are entirely respectful.

What does bother me is the number of Catholics on this forum who parrot the Evangelical line about Mormons not being Christians. **Those statements are not from your Church leadership, nor are they remotely consistent with the dignity and spirit in which your leaders speak of us. ** Some nominal Catholics have gone way off the reservation against us. But there I’m bringing in baggage from other threads, so sorry.

Dear Pete,

I’m not a Roman Catholic.

At any rate, I think I’ve made it clear why neither the Roman Catholic Church nor mainstream Christian denominations cannot accept the validity of Mormon baptisms: we do not consider you (respectfully) Christians. It’s not about politics. You said that the two Churches have had respectful agreements. Politics could be accepting Mormon baptism.

Unfortunately, the Mormon conception of the Godhead, plus some of what we consider your more aberrant religious beliefs, make your baptism invalid.

I’ve never heard of the Roman Catholic Church ever recognizing Mormonism as a proper Christian group. I do not say this with offense. But after reading on Mormonism, it’s simply obvious that you are not Christians. That doesn’t make Mormons bad people, in fact, I know plenty of Mormons who live holier lives than I ever have. I’m sure you’re probably one of them.

Dear Pete, the reason why I brought up Mormons not accepting other baptisms is this: if you do not accept our baptism, then it means you either A) Consider us Apostate, or B) not fully Christian. If this is the case, then we cannot have communion with one another. Therefore, we cannot accept your baptism either. It’s not “political,” my friend, it’s just logical.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dear Pete,

I’m not a Roman Catholic.

At any rate, I think I’ve made it clear why neither the Roman Catholic Church nor mainstream Christian denominations cannot accept the validity of Mormon baptisms: we do not consider you (respectfully) Christians. It’s not about politics. You said that the two Churches have had respectful agreements. Politics could be accepting Mormon baptism.

Unfortunately, the Mormon conception of the Godhead, plus some of what we consider your more aberrant religious beliefs, make your baptism invalid.

I’ve never heard of the Roman Catholic Church ever recognizing Mormonism as a proper Christian group. I do not say this with offense. But after reading on Mormonism, it’s simply obvious that you are not Christians. That doesn’t make Mormons bad people, in fact, I know plenty of Mormons who live holier lives than I ever have. I’m sure you’re probably one of them.

Dear Pete, the reason why I brought up Mormons not accepting other baptisms is this: if you do not accept our baptism, then it means you either A) Consider us Apostate, or B) not fully Christian. If this is the case, then we cannot have communion with one another. Therefore, we cannot accept your baptism either. It’s not “political,” my friend, it’s just logical.

You know, I"m not sure I have ever heard that put more politely. But its honest and the truth.

Peace, GT

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I appreciate your politeness, Fabian. I have never had any intention of trying to persuade anyone that Catholics should accept the LDS baptism. I have no objection to the Catholic decision on LDS baptism! I’ve simply attempted to correct misstatements about our theology.

Dear Pete, the reason why I brought up Mormons not accepting other baptisms is this: if you do not accept our baptism, then it means you either A) Consider us Apostate, or B) not fully Christian.

The answer is [C]: we consider you to be good Christians who do not possess the Priesthood authority, and we believe that Priesthood authority is necessary to baptize.

We believe that loss of the priesthood occurred because of an apostasy, but we do not believe that you, the Catholic/Orthodox churches, were the apostates. Your church did the best with what it had, and we’re grateful for your scholarship and diligence in preserving the holy Bible, and in bringing the knowledge of Christ to so much of the world.