The Church in the Americas and the Great Apostasy

[Cowboy_Pete]

Why haven’t later LDS prophets finished the translation?

I can only speculate. Could be that the parts we regard as most important are finished, i.e. JS-Matthew, & the book of Moses. Could also be that no other prophet like Joseph has since emerged, just as at the time that the Torah was written, that no prophet like Moses had emerged.

 

[mtolympus]

The D&C was (re)written, in 1835, the same year Joseph Smith invented the position of Apostle. Revelation after the fact.

I don’t know where you get this information. However, the importance of the Twelve Apostles in Jesus’ Church was certainly known by Joseph Smith in 1830. One only needs to read the Book of Mormon.

Because of Judas’ apostasy (Acts 1:25) and death, the Twelve needed to be restored. The eleven chose Matthias. According to Peter there are two requirements to be a member of the Twelve. The two requirements are: 
a) Witness the resurrected Lord 
b) Been in the company of the twelve while the Lord walked on earth.

The 11 apostles selected two men who had been baptized by John and who had witnessed the Resurrection of Jesus and asked Jesus to chose (by revelation) which should be the new apostle, and the lot fell upon Matthias. (Acts 1:22-26) Paul, who became an apostle later, shows this is not a hard and fast rule. An apostle is a witness of Jesus Christ. However, this witness can come through revelation, as was the case of Paul.

“But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Gal 1:11-12)

 

[RebeccaJ]

The meaning of the word apostle is “one who is sent out”. St. Paul was the “Apostle to the Gentiles”, but he was not one of the Twelve. The Catholic Church does not lack for apostles, as we are all “one who is sent out”.

At the end of every Mass, one of the clergy will say, “go forth in the peace of Christ”, or, “The Mass is ended go in peace.” We are being sent out of the church, instructed to “go”, which all Catholics are taught means, go out and teach the gospel that Jesus is the Messiah.

We are sent out, and so, it is Catholic teaching that all Catholics are apostles. But none of us are one of the Twelve because none of us meet the requirement of having lived during Jesus’ ministry, before His death, and then witnessing His Resurrection.

Christ’s Church is Apostolic, having at its foundation the Twelve Apostle’s. This foundation was laid by Jesus Christ Himself, and the Church has always stood, and continues to stand, on the same foundation that He laid.

From the Catechism:

The Apostles’ mission

858 Jesus is the Father’s Emissary. From the beginning of his ministry, he "called to him those whom he desired; . . . . And he appointed twelve, whom also he named apostles, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach."368 From then on, they would also be his “emissaries” (Greek apostoloi). In them, Christ continues his own mission: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."369 The apostles’ ministry is the continuation of his mission; Jesus said to the Twelve: "he who receives you receives me."370

859 Jesus unites them to the mission he received from the Father. As “the Son can do nothing of his own accord,” but receives everything from the Father who sent him, so those whom Jesus sends can do nothing apart from him,371 from whom they received both the mandate for their mission and the power to carry it out. Christ’s apostles knew that they were called by God as “ministers of a new covenant,” “servants of God,” “ambassadors for Christ,” "servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God."372

860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord’s Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors."373

The bishops - successors of the apostles

861 "In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."374

862 "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops."375 Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."376

The apostolate

863 The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is “sent out” into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. “The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well.” Indeed, we call an apostolate “every activity of the Mystical Body” that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377

864 “Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church’s whole apostolate”; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ.378 In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."379

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that “the Kingdom of heaven,” the "Reign of God,"380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love,"381 will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb,"382 "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."383 For “the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

So you do believe in revelation. That is how Paul tells us the apostles recieve revelation.

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery, (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.” (Eph. 3:3-5)

Yes, we believe in revelation. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church at Pentecost.

Where we differ from LDS is in the LDS concept of God needing to reveal more than was revealed in the Word of God, Who is God’s Final and Perfect Revelation. Jesus Christ is our Prophet, High Priest and King. There is no other. The Holy Spirit continues to reveal this to the “sons of men”.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Yes, we believe in revelation. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church at Pentecost…

That’s nifty. What role does it play in your beliefs? You’ve talked about the importance of praying independently to all three members of the Godhead, right? How does that work, exactly?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Stephen168:

The D&C was (re)written, in 1835, the same year Joseph Smith invented the position of Apostle.

Really? Joseph Smith invented apostles? So when you speak of the Catholic Apostolic church, you’re drawing on Joseph Smith’s invention?

Would you like to rephrase to something, say, more accurate?

 

[RebeccaJ]

That’s nifty. What role does it play in your beliefs? You’ve talked about the importance of praying independently to all three members of the Godhead, right? How does that work, exactly?

I don’t know what you’re asking.

Are you asking how does prayer work?

And what role of what?

 

[NewSeeker]

I see two frightening control issues in Seeker’s discussion; first that his wife wants him to keep his new faith a secret from his sons, and second, that Seeker wishes to make his wife choose between him and her salvation.

It’s good advice. That’s something that you Catholics have in common with we Mormons: we’re nosy about some things, in a good way, when it comes to supporting and affirming marriage and family.

Seeker, I suggest that you and your wife speak to clergy, either Catholic, LDS, or both. I’d be quite surprised if an LDS bishop did not try to talk your wife out of the secrecy thing.

Let me clarify. My wife definitely wants me to keep my Catholic faith a secret. I definitely do not want to force my wife to choose (and will not). What I said is that part of me wishes she really did believe LDS dogma about her salvation (degrees of glory, exaltation, eternal marriage, etc.) and/or that Mormons still talked as frequently as they used to about how **only **faithful, tithe-paying, eternally married Mormons get to be exalted and that if she wants be be exalted herself she needs to find another husband. She might be forced, under those conditions, to make a choice (not that I would make her choose - EVER). Part of me wants her to make that choice, as I do believe that, when push comes to shove, she would choose me. I’m really, really tired of this catholic-mormon netherland I’m in.

 

[NewSeeker]

The meaning of the word apostle is “one who is sent out”. St. Paul was the “Apostle to the Gentiles”, but he was not one of the Twelve. The Catholic Church does not lack for apostles, as we are all “one who is sent out”.

At the end of every Mass, one of the clergy will say, “go forth in the peace of Christ”, or, “The Mass is ended go in peace.” We are being sent out of the church, instructed to “go”, which all Catholics are taught means, go out and teach the gospel that Jesus is the Messiah.

We are sent out, and so, it is Catholic teaching that all Catholics are apostles. But none of us are one of the Twelve because none of us meet the requirement of having lived during Jesus’ ministry, before His death, and then witnessing His Resurrection.

Christ’s Church is Apostolic, having at its foundation the Twelve Apostle’s. This foundation was laid by Jesus Christ Himself, and the Church has always stood, and continues to stand, on the same foundation that He laid.

From the Catechism:

Precisely. Well said. LDS belief views the terms “Apostle” and “The Twelve” coterminously. As the example of Paul and the actual meaning of the word apostle both indicate, equating these terms is unscriptural.

 

[ParkerD]

Let me clarify. My wife definitely wants me to keep my Catholic faith a secret. I definitely do not want to force my wife to choose (and will not). What I said is that part of me wishes she really did believe LDS dogma about her salvation (degrees of glory, exaltation, eternal marriage, etc.) and/or that Mormons still talked as frequently as they used to about how **only **faithful, tithe-paying, eternally married Mormons get to be exalted and that if she wants be be exalted herself she needs to find another husband. She might be forced, under those conditions, to make a choice (not that I would make her choose - EVER). Part of me wants her to make that choice, as I do believe that, when push comes to shove, she would choose me. I’m really, really tired of this catholic-mormon netherland I’m in.

New Seeker,

I don’t know if you haven’t read articles over the years such as the following, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn’t teach (unless it’s someone who is acting on their own) what you wrote about “find another husband”, and instead teaches “unity in marriage” and “being a supportive spouse” are possible despite religious differences.

Here is a good article on the subject:

lds.org/ensign/1993/09/marriage-and-the-less-active-spouse?lang=eng&query=being+supportive+spouse

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t know where you get this information.

In 1833, there was not a D&C but there was the Book of Commandments. Chapter 27 of D&C was Chapter 28 of of the Book of Commandments. Chapter 28 of the Book of Commandments included what is now D&C27:1-5.The remaining verses including the ones about Apostles were added in 1835 when the Book of Commandants was rewritten as the D&C to included Apostles; which Smith had just invented.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus only chose 12 apostles. One aposatized, and was replaced.

You cannot call anyone else apostles within Christianity. You can call them successors to the apostles who were chosen by them, and the light of Christ and His authority through the Holy Spirit in the transmission of grace carried down through the ages…but you cannot say we have new apostles.

They have no authority of their own.

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ
Yes, we believe in revelation. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church at Pentecost…

That’s nifty. What role does it play in your beliefs? You’ve talked about the importance of praying independently to all three members of the Godhead, right? How does that work, exactly?

What role that plays in our beliefs is the confidence that comes from knowing that the Holy Spirit is guiding our Church and preventing it from teaching error in the areas of morals and doctrine. And the assurance that this is the case, came to us in a promise from Jesus Christ who, himself, comprises the entirety of revelation. We do not look for or need any further revelation because all has been revealed in him. He is the fulness of truth. As I and others have said before, this does not mean that God does not continually communicate to his Church. We continue to uncover the infinite truth revealed to us completely in the person of Jesus Christ and it is the Holy Spirit who guides us in this process.

How does praying independently to all three members of the Godhead work? It works because there is only one God. Where the Father is, there also are the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. All proceeds from the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Your problem with this stems from the fact that Mormonism has a flawed understanding of the very nature of God. It is not hard to understand that, from your viewpoint, praying to each independently would not make sense. From a Trinitarian view point, there is no problem whatsoever. There is only one God who cannot be divided.

 

[mtolympus]

It does help me understand how a Mormon would approach the issue. I did not know that Mormonism believed that there was once two legitimate yet separate churches co-existing on the Earth. Did Joseph Smith restore only one of them or did he restore both as a single entity?

As a point of interest, when Jesus organized the church in America after his resurrection he organized it with 12 disciples. They had the priesthood, but it is my understanding they were not apostles because the apostles were in Jerusalem. Likewise, today an LDS stake is organized with a Stake Presidency and 12 High Councilors. It is also my understanding that if/when various stakes are entirely cut off from communication with the general authorities, a stake has the keys and authority to function independently until that communication is restored.

I have nothing against Mormons and I applaud your church’s stand on social issues like family, marriage, etc. It seems to me that there is a great potential for mutual cooperation on matters such as these, given the general trends toward secularism in the USA. Whatever our theological differences, we’re all equally threatened by radical secularists.

I totally agree with you. I don’t believe we have to agree with each other, but we should try to understand each other and learn to love each other.
“By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:35)

 

[rinnie]

That’s nifty. What role does it play in your beliefs? You’ve talked about the importance of praying independently to all three members of the Godhead, right? How does that work, exactly?

Cowboy Pete we pray to ONE GOD. God is made up of 3 persons of ONE GOD. He revealed himself in the word, he became the word made flesh in the Son and he is the Holy Spirit leading us in the Church.

As Jesus said Before Abraham I AM.

 

[NewSeeker]

New Seeker,

I don’t know if you haven’t read articles over the years such as the following, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn’t teach (unless it’s someone who is acting on their own) what you wrote about “find another husband”, and instead teaches “unity in marriage” and “being a supportive spouse” are possible despite religious differences.

Here is a good article on the subject:

lds.org/ensign/1993/09/marriage-and-the-less-active-spouse?lang=eng&query=being+supportive+spouse

Parker,

What the church does teach is that you must be eternally married to be exalted. If my wife desires exaltation, she’ll eventually have to find another husband. The good news for us is that she doesn’t really believe God would keep us separate; in other words, she disagrees with official church teaching and doesn’t care what the church thinks. We’ve had many discussions about what the church teaches and she has made her views clear. It used to be that church members talked openly about the poor, benighted souls whose spouses go astray and must find a new eternal companion if they don’t want end up as ministering angels to some other god. This no longer seems to be the case. Instead, they say things like what some relief society sisters said to my wife when they learned I was a Catholic: “what? doesn’t your husband want to be married to you anymore? did he stop loving you?” My wife was irked by the ignoramuses who made those comments, though the sentiment is understandable given what the church still teaches about exaltation requirements. Those kind of comments are innocuous compared to how Mormons used to talk. If the molly mormons who said that to my wife actually said something old school like “you need to think about your exaltation and find an honorable, priesthood-bearing man who can take you into the highest level of the celestial kingdom”, then I might have some movement out this catholic-mormon netherland I’m in. I’m confident that if ordinary church members and local leaders still talked like Bruce R. McConkie and forced my wife to confront her disagreement with what the church teaches in this area head on, she would ultimately choose to stick with me.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

What the church does teach is that you must be eternally married to be exalted. If my wife desires exaltation, she’ll eventually have to find another husband. The good news for us is that she doesn’t really believe God would keep us separate; in other words, she disagrees with official church teaching and doesn’t care what the church thinks. …

New Seeker,

What this comment shows is that doctrine about eternal marriage is not understood by you, and that she is closer to understanding the “official church teaching” than you evidently think she is.

When Paul wrote, (1 Corinthians 7)
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

then he was stating a truth that is taught within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that not only applies to this kind of wife/husband situation you have written about, but also in a different way but using a similar principle, to children/parent situations–that the righteous desires of the parents and their diligence in teaching their children will play a role in the possibility of “wandering” children returning, whether in this life or in the spirit world, to “the fold”.

The sisters making the comments you described, would be the ones who don’t understand Latter-day Saint doctrine about what a woman should do in a case such as you have described about your wife. It sounds like your wife is doing exactly what she is not only inspired to do, but what is in line with the doctrine about what she should do.

 

[NewSeeker]

New Seeker,

What this comment shows is that doctrine about eternal marriage is not understood by you, and that she is closer to understanding the “official church teaching” than you evidently think she is.

When Paul wrote, (1 Corinthians 7)
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

then he was stating a truth that is taught within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that not only applies to this kind of wife/husband situation you have written about, but also in a different way but using a similar principle, to children/parent situations–that the righteous desires of the parents and their diligence in teaching their children will play a role in the possibility of “wandering” children returning, whether in this life or in the spirit world, to “the fold”.

The sisters making the comments you described, would be the ones who don’t understand Latter-day Saint doctrine about what a woman should do in a case such as you have described about your wife. It sounds like your wife is doing exactly what she is not only inspired to do, but what is in line with the doctrine about what she should do.

So, are you saying church members no longer need to be married eternally to their spouse (with the ceremony performed either in this life or the next by proxy) in order to be exalted? Single people can remain single eternally and still be exalted? If so, that’s yet another long-standing doctrine that’s changed. If not, then my point still stands. If my wife desires exaltation, she needs to marry herself off to another man - cause I’m now a baptized Catholic and we’re no longer eternally married in the eyes of the church.

 

[ParkerD]

So, are you saying church members no longer need to be married eternally to their spouse (with the ceremony performed either in this life or the next by proxy) in order to be exalted? Single people can remain single eternally and still be exalted? If so, that’s yet another long-standing doctrine that’s changed. If not, then my point still stands. If my wife desires exaltation, she needs to marry herself off to another man - cause I’m now a baptized Catholic and we’re no longer eternally married in the eyes of the church.

New Seeker,

I wasn’t saying anything about single people.

If you read the article I linked, you will find that “needs to marry herself off to another man” is not implied in any way, nor would you find that in any doctrinal Latter-day Saint source.

If you read the 1 Corinthians 7 verses that Paul wrote and that I cited in the earlier comment, then you will find the simple teaching that can provide hope for her in her situation, and because of the Holy Ghost and the Savior’s grace, no one in the world can take away that hope from her heart, which ultimately may be that people can change, and God can work miracles that people generally may not expect to ever happen.

 

[NewSeeker]

New Seeker,

I wasn’t saying anything about single people.

If you read the article I linked, you will find that “needs to marry herself off to another man” is not implied in any way, nor would you find that in any doctrinal Latter-day Saint source.

So, you think it’s not doctrinal that eternal marriage is required for exaltation?