The Church in the Nicene Creed

[CutlerB]

I have asked a similar question in another thread once, but that was not the main issue of the thread and it didn’t get treated very much either.

I have a question concerning two of the Four Marks of the Church, set forth in the Nicene Creed. The two in question are “one” and “catholic”. As an Anglican, I recite the Creed on Sundays, though I personally will certainly differ on what I mean when I say “catholic” from other Anglicans. I take it to refer to the Catholic Church, that is as Anglicans call it (to make it possible for them to say they were “part of the catholic [small c] Church”) the Roman Catholic Church.

Let me give you some background on why I bring this up. Our bishop is visiting the parish this weekend and a few of our people and others have met him yesterday. There was one guy from another parish, who regularly comes to our Sunday service though, and he asked the bishop why we say we “believe in the Holy Catholic Church” (Apostles’ Creed, which is written out in gold letters above the altar). The bishop’s reply was along these lines: “First off, that’s the historic Creed of Christians and we cannot change it. Second, catholic means universal and not Roman Catholic.”

Now, I think I’m right in thinking that there is no such thing as “part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church” and that the Catholic Church doesn’t recognise any other denomination as such. Therefore, I hold the view that this line “one holy, catholic and apostolic Church” refers to the Catholic Church, that is the Church of Jesus Christ under the Pope. I have read some quotes from the Fathers about the catholicity of the Church, but somehow I cannot put them to use against the Anglican view. I will spell out that view in the official words of the CofE below:

The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It worships the one true God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. …] Led by the Holy Spirit, the Church of England bore witness to Christian truth in historic texts that were developed in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Book of Common Prayer and the Ordinal (services for ordaining bishops, priests and deacons).

(from the CofE website)

My first question therefore is: If I am correct in thinking that the creed means the “Roman Catholic Church”, how can I support that claim and what speaks against the Anglican view of catholicity?

The second question refers to the “one” Mark of the True Church, and is a bit simpler.

How can I show that this “one” doesn’t mean simply the common Christian belief, as would be required to hold to the Anglican view, but a specific Church?

I have searched the Internet and the forums for help, but somehow nothing I found treats the questions the way I would like them to. If you need any clarification, I will provide.

Thank you.

 

[Sirach2]

Not exactly. The wording embraces those outside the faith as well, yet they belong to the Church as the Body of Christ. Pope Pius XII clarifies those who belong to this Body in his encyclical Mystici Corporis. You can read it here.

This beautiful passage is from the Council of Trent Catechism:

The third mark of the Church is that she is Catholic; that is, universal. And justly is she called Catholic, because, as St. Augustine says, she is diffused by the splendour of one faith from the rising to the setting sun." Unlike states of human institution, or the sects of heretics, she is not confined to any one country or class of men, but embraces within the amplitude of her love all mankind, whether barbarians or Scythians, slaves or freemen, male or female.

Therefore it is written: Thou . . . hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and hast made us to our God a kingdom. Speaking of the Church, David says: Ask of me and I will give thee the Gentiles for thy inheritance, and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession; and also, I will be mindful of Rahab and of Babylon knowing me; and man is born in her.

She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood… This (note of catholicity), therefore, is to be taught as a most reliable criterion, by which to distinguish the true from a false Church.

Note paragraph three, that all who desire eternal salvation would include those in our day who are not formal Catholics, but belong to the Mystical Body of Christ, by both desire and baptism.

 

[JRKH]

My first question therefore is: If I am correct in thinking that the creed means the “Roman Catholic Church”, how can I support that claim and what speaks against the Anglican view of catholicity?

It can get a little tricky in terminology so bear this in mind.
At the time the creed was formed, there was no “Roman Catholic Church”…In fact there STILL is no “Roman Catholic Church”, though we often use the term to refer to those of the Latin rite church in communion with the Holy Father in the Vatican. The official title is The Catholic Church" and includes ALL of the rites in communion with the Holy Father in the Vatican.
But I digress.
At the time the creed was formulated, there was but one Church. The Catholic (universal) Church. So there was no need to specify anything beyond this - that the Church is one, and is universal (Catholic).
For myself, the best argument against the Anglican (as well as other protestant) view on this is from Scripture itself and ties in with the “One” aspect you ask about below.

The second question refers to the “one” Mark of the True Church, and is a bit simpler.

How can I show that this “one” doesn’t mean simply the common Christian belief, as would be required to hold to the Anglican view, but a specific Church?

Scripture speaks of a very profound unity of the ekklesia (Church) founded by Christ. The unity is intended to be so complete that the Church (universal) is able to speak with one mind…consider the degree of unity called for in the following Scriptures:
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
**
1 Cor 1:10**
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and** that there be no dissensions among you**, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
How shall these cries for unity be reconciled with the “many minds” in Christianity today?
But even further in scripture, our Lord was not simply content to pray for unity…but to put in place an authority - a visible authority - that we are to listen to. Consider the passage from Mt 18:
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and** if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.**
Look at the authority granted…to “Bind and Loose”…“whatever”…
Look at the responsibility required…that we “Listen to the Church” on pain of expulsion.
And before anyone says “well that applies to ‘sin’ against your brother”, remember that teaching a false doctrine is a sin.
And if someone says…“church” here applies to the local body of believers, I offer two questions. 1) Show me in scripture where vs 17 is so limited…and 2) what do you do when local churches come to differing and conflicting conclusions?
To help with these things, not only caused the instructions to be recorded, but a demonstration of those instructions put in place…Acts 15 and the council of Jerusalem clearly demonstrates the Church acting authoritatively and in unity.

So - the goal needs to be greater unity…for that is what Christ, through the Holy Scriptures calls for.

I have searched the Internet and the forums for help, but somehow nothing I found treats the questions the way I would like them to. If you need any clarification, I will provide.

Thank you.

Don’t know if this is exactly what you are looking for…but I hope it helps.

Peace
James

 

[capablanca911]

When people ask me why the Church is holy, I say the Catholic Church is holy because her precepts are holy. If you do everything the Catholic Church says to do, and you don’t do everything the Catholic Church says to not do, then that would be perfectly holy.

If the Catholic Church isn’t what’s meant by One Holy Catholic and Apostolic,then how is the whole body of believers holy? They aren’t personally holy (and neither is the Roman Catholic Church), but they don’t have precepts at all.

Even if the Anglican Church was the true Catholic Church , how is it holy when it tolerates evil like abortion, contraception, and masterbation?

 

[Bookcat]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III

 

[CutlerB]

Does that mean then that the Anglican Church is “part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church”?

 

[Sirach2]

Nice, Bookcat. I really like the continuity from the older catechism that I posted earlier, though the CCC presents it in a much more readable and understandable format.

 

[Bookcat]

Does that mean then that the Anglican Church is “part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church”?

Such is their statement

See the above from the Catechism:

Particularly this part:

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[Sirach2]

Does that mean then that the Anglican Church is “part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church”?

What do you think now, Cutler?

**836 **“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” **Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” **

 

[CutlerB]

Such is their statement (not our words …but see below)

See the above from the Catechism:

Particularly this part:

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Thanks. I wasn’t quite sure about what exactly the Catechism was trying to say

I’d like to put it another way, as I can’t use the Catechism in a discussion with an Anglican. Would you say that the Anglican Church, from my above quote, seems to believe that the Church is “one” in the way that it is a spiritual union of all believers across denominations?

 

[Sirach2]

Oops, I was posting the same time as Bookcat, so we have duplication. Thanks for stepping in again.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks. I wasn’t quite sure about what exactly the Catechism was trying to say

I’d like to put it another way, as I can’t use the Catechism in a discussion with an Anglican. Would you say that the Anglican Church, from my above quote, seems to believe that the Church is “one” in the way that it is a spiritual union of all believers across denominations?

I am not exactly up on what the *exact *belief of the Anglican Communion is.

But we would see them as fellow Christians in an imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.

Historically – Henry the VIII of that name – broke communion with the Catholic Church. As to valid Orders they lost them in the intervening years since Henry VIII’s unfortunate act.

I would also note that there has been varied dialogues etc in more recent years where various things have been worked on.