The Church=Marry, other Christians= "the rest of her offspring"?

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Revelation 12,17

“Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

Does this not imply an idea that there might be two groups of Marrys offspring (especially the word “rest”; so there also have to be the ones who are not the “rest” who were attacked before the “rest”)

First the dragon fought against one group, the Catholic Church in the type of Marry, and later, after failing, it started a war against “the rest of her offspring”, which would be other Christians. While Marry (the Church) was saved (the Churchs teaching is infallible) we know nothing about “rest of her offspring”, who might have been defeated in some doctrinal teaching.

This comparison is persuasive to me also because it is all happening in the desert. The desert could be a type of this world.

Just thinking.

Some comments and arguments would help me alot.
 
The woman in Revelation is supposed to represent the Church. It says nothing about Mary.
 
The woman is Mary and the Church, since it’s an ancient symbol for both of them.

The rest of Mary’s offspring would be those who keep Jesus’ commandments, i.e., Christians, the members of the Church.
 
The flood reference in (Rev 12:15) references (Dan 9:24-27) and it is the war that destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple (Mat 24:15). The woman/church escaped that 3 1/2 years period by following Christ’s instruction to flee Judea. (Mat 24:16; Luke 21:21)

The dragon making war on the rest of her offspring (12:17) is emperor after emperor persecuting the early Church.
 
seveda said:
Revelation 12,17

“Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

Does this not imply an idea that there might be two groups of Marrys offspring (especially the word “rest”; so there also have to be the ones who are not the “rest” who were attacked before the “rest”)
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The woman does seem to have two groups of offspring. However, I think the first group is a group of only one person, the male child (Jesus) mentioned in verse 5, who was taken up to God. The second group, “the rest of her offspring,” is the group of all who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
 
Some believe the woman in Revelation is “Mary” and others the “church”. Most take a both/and approach. Certain places in the book of revelation describe Mary as the Queen Mother. In other places like the quote you brought up could mean both depending on who you are talking to.

So let’s look at it talking about the church. It would make more sense that it is talking about the offspring of the church because satan is abound in this world trying to conquer each human being. However, if you take it to mean Mary, it doesn’t mean that Mary had other biological children. What did Jesus do at the foot of the cross? He handed His mother over to John. In the Jewish culture of this time period, it would have been blasphemis for Jesus to do this if he had other siblings. Second, by handing Mary over to John and telling them, “Woman behold your son!” and “behold your mother”, Jesus is telling everyone that she is the mother of us all. So in correlation to revelation, all christians are considered Mary’s offspring.
 
seveda said:
Revelation 12,17

“Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

Does this not imply an idea that there might be two groups of Marrys offspring (especially the word “rest”; so there also have to be the ones who are not the “rest” who were attacked before the “rest”)

First the dragon fought against one group, the Catholic Church in the type of Marry, and later, after failing, it started a war against “the rest of her offspring”, which would be other Christians. While Marry (the Church) was saved (the Churchs teaching is infallible) we know nothing about “rest of her offspring”, who might have been defeated in some doctrinal teaching.

This comparison is persuasive to me also because it is all happening in the desert. The desert could be a type of this world.

Just thinking.

Some comments and arguments would help me alot.
Click to expand...
THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. . . . he brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).

There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents. Different aspects of the symbol point to different possible meanings for it.

Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the Woman represents is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation uses symbolism.

The vision contains “fusion imagery,” in which one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel (Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).

Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are numbered twenty-four because they are a fusion of the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles of Jesus, a symbolism which occurs at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles and twelve gates with the names of the twelve patriarchs.

The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the all four of the beasts the prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea in chapter 7 of his book.

Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).
 
Randy_Carson said:
THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. . . . he brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).

There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents. Different aspects of the symbol point to different possible meanings for it.

Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the Woman represents is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation uses symbolism.

The vision contains “fusion imagery,” in which one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel (Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).

Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are numbered twenty-four because they are a fusion of the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles of Jesus, a symbolism which occurs at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles and twelve gates with the names of the twelve patriarchs.

The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the all four of the beasts the prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea in chapter 7 of his book.

Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).
Click to expand...

👍
 
Her offspring are Christians. This should be taken spiritually, not literally.
 
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