The Church of Christ "Is" the Catholic Church vs. The Church of Christ "Subsists" in the Catholic Church

[ready]

For the same reasons I have been stating. Subsist is being used in a way that the Church has not used it before. And it would make it appear that The Church of Christ and The Catholic Church are two separate things. This cannot be and this is why the use of subsist and other inexact language from VII has caused so many problems.

What did “subsists” mean before Vatican II? What I mean is: how was the term used and in what context? Because it was used differently before Vatican II this might make things confusing, but it doesn’t necessarily stink of heresy, isn’t that right?

 

[clem456]

No, because the father is not the son, but the older Councils said Christ’s Church is the Catholic Church.

Umm, are we sure about that?

Also a father can have many sons, so the Church of Christ could subsists in many differed Churches

.

I don’t think you are using subsists in the correct way. The goods of salvation contained in the many Christian churches, as far as the goods they have that are not in error, subsist in the Catholic Church, not in the branches from it. For ex…the good that the Methodist Church has and practices, that is not in error, subsists in the Catholic Church. The salvation of a good and moral Jewish person subsists in the Catholic Church, but does not “consist of” membership in, the Catholic Church. Although the doctrine might be, that if the Jewish person is saved, he is in reality part of the Catholic Church even if he did not make a conscious decision to enter the Church during his life.

 

[Inhimthroughher]

What did “subsists” mean before Vatican II? What I mean is: how was the term used and in what context? Because it was used differently before Vatican II this might make things confusing, but it doesn’t necessarily stink of heresy, isn’t that right?

A particular thing or substance is said to subsist or have being. It is the definition of a substance to subsist in itself and not in another. This differs from an accident which adhere’s in a substance. For example a man subsists but the color of a man’s hair, an accident, adhere’s in his substance. Substances do not subsist in one another properly. A man can be “in a building”–a substance in another substance but this is very different than color being hair-an accident adhering in a substance.

It is only heretical if one is saying the church of Christ and the Catholic church are two distinct things.

Yet using terms in different ways is very confusing especially in something as technical as theology. This using of terms and attaching different concepts has brought about much error and has led to material heresy in many. (This is different then formal heresy where one knows they are denying the truths of the truth.)

 

[Dirt]

This discussion simply points yet again as to why a sylabus on Vatican Council II is needed. For fifty years we have had an ongoing run of arguments, excesses and liberties taken due in part to the wording used in many of the documents of Vatican II. I pray for the day when these documents will be clarified and put to rest.
Really, can anyone show me one document from any prior Councils which have created so much confusion as to its interpretation and implementation? Not being sarcastic, I really would like to know if this sort of episode has happened in the past.

As to St. Thomas, there were many, many theologians who were assaulting His theology all the way back to the 1800’s. His work was always a sticking point for the reformers who were trying to steer the Church in a different direction. If I am not mistaken, Pope St. Pius X notes this in Pascendi Domenici Gregis as well.

 

[ready]

A particular thing or substance is said to subsist or have being. It is the definition of a substance to subsist in itself and not in another. This differs from an accident which adhere’s in a substance. For example a man subsists but the color of a man’s hair, an accident, adhere’s in his substance. Substances do not subsist in one another properly. A man can be “in a building”–a substance in another substance but this is very different than color being hair-an accident adhering in a substance.

It is only heretical if one is saying the church of Christ and the Catholic church are two distinct things.

Yet using terms in different ways is very confusing especially in something as technical as theology. This using of terms and attaching different concepts has brought about much error and has led to material heresy in many. (This is different then formal heresy where one knows they are denying the truths of the truth.)

Thanks for helping, but now I don’t understand why there is the confusion involving the term “subsists” used in Vatican II. If “it is the definition of a substance to subsist in itself and not in another,” then why would we have a problem with the Vatican II statement and think that the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church is being interpreted as not being the same thing (given that a substance subsists in itself and not in another? Your help is appreciated!

 

[SanctusPeccator]

I once read that to say that the Church of Christ “subsists” in the Catholic Church means that the Church of Christ “is” the Catholic Church, but I just heard a video sermon where the traditionalist priest said something different. He said that to say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church means that it could also subsist in other faiths. Why did Vatican II use the word “subsist” and not the word “is?” Thanks in advance for any help with this!

First, let’s define the term “subsists” before proceeding further:
“SUBSISTENCE. The existence proper to a whole and uncommunicated substance or reality. Subsistence is that perfection whereby a nature is completed and becomes uncommunicated, that is, whereby it becomes itself and distince from all other beings. Something, therefore, subsists when it has being and operation through itself, not through union with another. Applied to God as the being who exists essentially or by identity within his essence; the being who is completely self-sufficient for existence and activity. Also applied by the Second Vatican Council to the Roman Catholic Church, in which, it is said, subsists the fullness of the Church founded by Christ. (Etym. Latin subsistentia, self-contained existence; subsistere, to stay, abide; to stand under.)” (John A. Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, p. 523).
Lumen gentium and Orientalium Ecclesiarum do not signify the Catholic Church has ceased to regard itself as the one true Church of Christ; merely that it recognizes Infinite God is not confined to the finite boundaries of the Church Militant for the contingent salvation of all peoples. The Catholic Church has always acknowledged there exist lesser “elements of sanctification” found in separated Churches and communities outside the visible boundaries of her sacramental system (i.e., this explains why converts from the Orthodox are not re-baptized since their Trinitarian formula is recognized as valid). The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s Document [of 29 June 2007] on *Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church *elaborates upon this at some length vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html ]

 

[ready]

First, let’s define the term “subsists” before proceeding further:
“SUBSISTENCE. The existence proper to a whole and uncommunicated substance or reality. Subsistence is that perfection whereby a nature is completed and becomes uncommunicated, that is, whereby it becomes itself and distince from all other beings. Something, therefore, subsists when it has being and operation through itself, not through union with another. Applied to God as the being who exists essentially or by identity within his essence; the being who is completely self-sufficient for existence and activity. Also applied by the Second Vatican Council to the Roman Catholic Church, in which, it is said, subsists the fullness of the Church founded by Christ. (Etym. Latin subsistentia, self-contained existence; subsistere, to stay, abide; to stand under.)” (John A. Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, p. 523).
Lumen gentium and Orientalium Ecclesiarum do not signify the Catholic Church has ceased to regard itself as the one true Church of Christ; merely that it recognizes Infinite God is not confined to the finite boundaries of the Church Militant for the contingent salvation of all peoples. The Catholic Church has always acknowledged there exist lesser “elements of sanctification” found in separated Churches and communities outside the visible boundaries of her sacramental system (i.e., this explains why converts from the Orthodox are not re-baptized since their Trinitarian formula is recognized as valid). The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s Document [of 29 June 2007] on *Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church *elaborates upon this at some length vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html ]

Thanks so much for the link! It really helped me!

 

[SanctusPeccator]

SanctusPeccator;9397959:

First, let’s define the term “subsists” before proceeding further:
“SUBSISTENCE

. The existence proper to a whole and uncommunicated substance or reality. Subsistence is that perfection whereby a nature is completed and becomes uncommunicated, that is, whereby it becomes itself and distince from all other beings. Something, therefore, subsists when it has being and operation through itself, not through union with another. Applied to God as the being who exists essentially or by identity within his essence; the being who is completely self-sufficient for existence and activity. Also applied by the Second Vatican Council to the Roman Catholic Church, in which, it is said, subsists the fullness of the Church founded by Christ. (Etym. Latin subsistentia, self-contained existence; subsistere, to stay, abide; to stand under.)” (John A. Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, p. 523).
Lumen gentium and Orientalium Ecclesiarum do not signify the Catholic Church has ceased to regard itself as the one true Church of Christ; merely that it recognizes Infinite God is not confined to the finite boundaries of the Church Militant for the contingent salvation of all peoples. The Catholic Church has always acknowledged there exist lesser “elements of sanctification” found in separated Churches and communities outside the visible boundaries of her sacramental system (i.e., this explains why converts from the Orthodox are not re-baptized since their Trinitarian formula is recognized as valid). The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s Document [of 29 June 2007] on *Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church *elaborates upon this at some length vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html ]
Thanks so much for the link! It really helped me!

A minor miracle that! Oh well, it is said even a blind man hits the target eventually…:yyeess:

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Question answered

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