The Church of Jesus Christ was never in apostacy?

[KJK80]

Having to defend some of the catholic doctrines is something that i would not want to do given that so many contradict or distort the Scriptures. My burden is far far less than yours…

My burden is extremely light… I can quote from the CCC to show what I believe, and it doesn’t require to be spelled out from the Bible alone (which is a big moving target).

If the Bible could stand on its own, there would be ONE Protestant church, it would be huge and smash the Catholic church to pieces. There would be no separation amongst the church’s, as they would all have one exact blueprint without any issues.

Unfortunately this is not the case, I could easily take the Catholic gloves off and debate you Biblically from a completely Protestant standpoint and we would probably get less ground covered than we are now (which is very little).

Trust me, the burden’s easy here… it’d be much easier if those asking the questions would actually listen.

Unfortunately, not a word that is stated to you, will you actually let sink it, you are going to view things your way, and that will be the only way you view them.

That’s fine… I just hope and pray that someone else will gain from these conversations.

God bless! My prayers are with you and by extension all that read these forum conversations.

 

[guanophore]

Having to defend some of the catholic doctrines is something that i would not want to do given that so many contradict or distort the Scriptures. My burden is far far less than yours…

“Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.” Luke 12:48

“This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.” 1 Cor 4:1-2

The Divine Deposit of Faith is a very worthy burden under which to labor.

 

[Hisalone]

Originally Posted by Hisalone
Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary.
Show me where the apostolic church had statues and other idols inside their church.
Show me where the apostolic church taught purgatory.
Show me where the apostolic church taught indulgences.
Show me where the apostolic church taught a celibate priestly class.

"Show me…show me…show me… show me… show me…"
How about somebody showing you the door?

Cant answer?

 

[Hisalone]

This is a very interesting post. Can you show us for certain that the apostolic church didn’t pray to Mary, have statues, teach purgatory or indulgences? Until someone shows something one way or the other, your can’t really make your point. I am genuinely interested in what you have to say.

From what I’ve read, celibacy for priests is nowhere prohibited.(Have you found that it is?) It’s less of a teaching in Catholicism than it is a dicipline. Women don’t cover their heads in my church either, but I doubt that indicates apostacy.

The burden of proof is on you.
From Marianology to statues etc there is no evidence that these existed in the 1st century.
Priestly celibacy is a later add on. We know many of the apostles were married.

 

[KJK80]

The burden of proof is on you.
From Marianology to statues etc there is no evidence that these existed in the 1st century.
Priestly celibacy is a later add on. We know many of the apostles were married.

Burden of proof is on the one who does not believe.

I believe, therefore I have no reason to “prove” it…

We can take this as far back as you want… We may as well sit here and argue whether God exists at all… So what?

Let’s say you’re right and I’m wrong… Just for the sake of argument… Again, so what? What are you really benefiting by being right?

 

[Good_Daughter]

The burden of proof is on you.
From Marianology to statues etc there is no evidence that these existed in the 1st century.
Priestly celibacy is a later add on. We know many of the apostles were married.

Can’t answer?

 

[Hisalone]

Burden of proof is on the one who does not believe.

I believe, therefore I have no reason to “prove” it…

We can take this as far back as you want… We may as well sit here and argue whether God exists at all… So what?

Let’s say you’re right and I’m wrong… Just for the sake of argument… Again, so what? What are you really benefiting by being right?

I have read the New testament.
I have read the Didache.
Nowhere in either of these writings is there evidence for any of this.
I have stated in the past that the Catholic Church is guilty of incrementalism/ slippery slope where things have been added over the years that are “foriegn” to the revealed religion that God has passed down.

 

[Hisalone]

Can’t answer?

Daughter I find no evidence for any of this. If there is no evidence I must assume it is not there. Can you show me differently?

 

[KJK80]

I have read the New testament.
I have read the Didache.
Nowhere in either of these writings is there evidence for any of this.
I have stated in the past that the Catholic Church is guilty of incrementalism/ slippery slope where things have been added over the years that are “foriegn” to the revealed religion that God has passed down.

You’re right, no religion or Christian church has ever added anything, true or false to the Bible or what the church father’s believed. Everybody believes exactly as they did without any further revelation… Luckily that itself is Biblical… Oh wait, it’s not…

 

[VWcrazy]

Show me where the apostolic taught Sola Scriptura.
Show me where the apostolic Church taught one could establish one’s own denomination.

 

[Hisalone]

Show me where the apostolic taught Sola Scriptura.
Show me where the apostolic Church taught one could establish one’s own denomination.

I dont believe in SolaScriptura, (you have to know the target you are aiming at in order to hit it.)
Paul writes to the church at Ephesis, to the church at Phillipi etc etc. although these are not different “denominations” they are different and seperate churches.

 

[guanophore]

"Hisalone:

Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary.
Show me where the apostolic church had statues and other idols inside their church.
Show me where the apostolic church taught purgatory.
Show me where the apostolic church taught indulgences.
Show me where the apostolic church taught a celibate priestly class.

Well, when the Apostles wanted Mary to pray for them, don’t you think they just asked her? Do you imagine that she never helped or prayed with or for the Apostles?

The NT Church was a persecuted Church. Their faith was considered illegal, and they met in houses. As they grew, they also hid in catacombs and caves. They did not have “Church buildings” until after Christianity was de-crimminialized in the 3rd century. Then we see the churches with statues.

The early Church taught that nothing unclean could enter heaven, so that the saints needed to be cleansed before entering. They did not call it “purgatory” which is a Latin word, because they spoke Aramaic or Greek.

The NT Church taught that the good behaviors of one member of the body could benefit others in the Body. This prinicple is the basis for what we call indulgences.

Priests are not a “class”. a priest (called in the NT a presbyter or elder) is a calling and a gift from God. They are servants of the body.

The burden of proof is on you.
From Marianology to statues etc there is no evidence that these existed in the 1st century.
Priestly celibacy is a later add on. We know many of the apostles were married.

True, it did not take long for the Church to realize how advantageous it is to select priests from among those who are called to the celibate life. What “burden of proof” are you speaking of here. Do you not accept the teaching of Jesus and Paul on the value of the celibate life?

I have read the New testament.
I have read the Didache.
Nowhere in either of these writings is there evidence for any of this.
I have stated in the past that the Catholic Church is guilty of incrementalism/ slippery slope where things have been added over the years that are “foriegn” to the revealed religion that God has passed down.

How are any of these practices a “slippery slope”? Do you think asking Mary for her intercession is a road to perdition?

Daughter I find no evidence for any of this. If there is no evidence I must assume it is not there. Can you show me differently?

Has it occurred to you that there is evidence that you do not take into account? By what principle do you assume that, if you cannot see it in your NT, you “must assume it is not there”. Do you believe that all of the Revelation of God is found in the NT?

I dont believe in SolaScriptura, (you have to know the target you are aiming at in order to hit it.)
Paul writes to the church at Ephesis, to the church at Phillipi etc etc. although these are not different “denominations” they are different and seperate churches.

Why do you reason like someone who believes in SS? These churches were not different or separate. They were all equally Catholics, and saw themselves as part of the One Church. You may need to read some past the Didache to see this.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I have read the New testament.
I have read the Didache.
Nowhere in either of these writings is there evidence for any of this.
I have stated in the past that the Catholic Church is guilty of incrementalism/ slippery slope where things have been added over the years that are “foriegn” to the revealed religion that God has passed down.

and what religion is that?

 

[justasking4]

You’re right, no religion or Christian church has ever added anything, true or false to the Bible or what the church father’s believed. Everybody believes exactly as they did without any further revelation… Luckily that itself is Biblical… Oh wait, it’s not…

Are you saying the catholic church receives further “revelations”?
If so what are a couple examples of this?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3490639]
Originally Posted by Hisalone
Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary.
Show me where the apostolic church had statues and other idols inside their church.
Show me where the apostolic church taught purgatory.
Show me where the apostolic church taught indulgences.
Show me where the apostolic church taught a celibate priestly class.

guanophore
Well, when the Apostles wanted Mary to pray for them, don’t you think they just asked her? Do you imagine that she never helped or prayed with or for the Apostles?

This does not answer the question—“Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary”. Do we have any evidence of an apostle or anyone in the NT praying directly to Mary?

The NT Church was a persecuted Church. Their faith was considered illegal, and they met in houses. As they grew, they also hid in catacombs and caves. They did not have “Church buildings” until after Christianity was de-crimminialized in the 3rd century. Then we see the churches with statues.

What this shows is a deviation from what the apostles taught in the NT.

The early Church taught that nothing unclean could enter heaven, so that the saints needed to be cleansed before entering. They did not call it “purgatory” which is a Latin word, because they spoke Aramaic or Greek.

What years are you referring to when you use the term “early Church”?
In regards to being “cleansed” it is not fire that does this but the “blood of Christ”. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. I John 1:6-7

The NT Church taught that the good behaviors of one member of the body could benefit others in the Body. This prinicple is the basis for what we call indulgences.

If you are referring to some kind of spiritual benefit then this would be something unbiblical.

Priests are not a “class”. a priest (called in the NT a presbyter or elder) is a calling and a gift from God. They are servants of the body.

Another error. This priest class is not a church office in the NT. There is no description in the NT about a celibate man who has some special spiritual powers and authority in the NT.

 

[guanophore]

This does not answer the question—“Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary”. Do we have any evidence of an apostle or anyone in the NT praying directly to Mary?

How could you expect to see anything there? She was still alive when most of it was written?

Don’t you think that she prayed with the Apostles? She was in the upper room …

Why would you expect her to stop praying for the disciples of her son, after she passed from this life?

What this shows is a deviation from what the apostles taught in the NT.

No, it is clear in the NT that the Apostles taught the believers to pray for one another, and that not even death can separate us from the love of God.

What years are you referring to when you use the term “early Church”?

She was talking about the “apostolic” church, by which I suppose she means the time of the church while the Apostles were alive. However, it may be that she considers the Apostolic Church to be that which appears only in the NT, a premise that Catholics would reject.

In regards to being “cleansed” it is not fire that does this but the “blood of Christ”. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. I John 1:6-7

Of course I am in agreement that there is no cleasing without the blood of Christ. However, everyones works will be purified with fire, and some of them will burn, having no eternal value, though they themselves will be saved.
justasking4;3491491:

If you are referring to some kind of spiritual benefit then this would be something unbiblical.

I am indeed referring to spiritual benefit. Are you of the opinion that Christians cannot benefit one another spiritually?

Another error. This priest class is not a church office in the NT. There is no description in the NT about a celibate man who has some special spiritual powers and authority in the NT.

Yes, this is an error. The priesthood is not a “class”. The priest (referred to in the NT as a presbyter or elder) is a special vocation for the building up of the body of Christ.

Do you not believe that ordained persons have special spiritual power and authority in the NT?

 

[sapamarogi]

Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because he found the truth of the Word of God that says: “By grace you have been saved through Faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast.” Ephesians 2:8. He found the truth by reading the Word of God for himself and not letting man tell him what was right.

If only Catholics would read the Word of God for themselves and ask God to let them see the TRUTH so they could decide for themselves and not be influenced by man.

 

[Tonks40]

Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because he found the truth of the Word of God that says: “By grace you have been saved through Faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast.” Ephesians 2:8. He found the truth by reading the Word of God for himself and not letting man tell him what was right.

If only Catholics would read the Word of God for themselves and ask God to let them see the TRUTH so they could decide for themselves and not be influenced by man.

How is post helping with the topic at hand?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because he found the truth of the Word of God that says: “By grace you have been saved through Faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast.” Ephesians 2:8. He found the truth by reading the Word of God for himself and not letting man tell him what was right.

If only Catholics would read the Word of God for themselves and ask God to let them see the TRUTH so they could decide for themselves and not be influenced by man.

if catholics did what you guys do, how many more denomitional churches do you think we would have?

 

[guanophore]

How is post helping with the topic at hand?

Maybe sapamarogi is among those who believe that the Church forbid the Bible, and that caused apostasy? There does seem to be a misconception that Luther did not read the Bible the first 30 years when he was a Catholic.