The Church of Jesus Christ was never in apostacy?

[sapamarogi]

To Guanophore:

Jesus said in Mark 7:6 -9 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me.‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of MEN.’ “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the TRADITION OF MEN.”

Also, “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the TRADITION OF MEN, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to CHRIST.” Colossians 2:8 (Read further on).

“for you have been BORN AGAIN not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through THE LIVING AND ABIDING WORD OF GOD.” 1 Peter 1:23 "BUT THE WORD OF GOD ABIDES FOREVER. ONLY THE WORD - JESUS

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3491548]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This does not answer the question—“Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary”. Do we have any evidence of an apostle or anyone in the NT praying directly to Mary?

guanophore
How could you expect to see anything there? She was still alive when most of it was written?

Good point. Now we can dismiss this idea that they prayed to her.

Don’t you think that she prayed with the Apostles? She was in the upper room …

No doubt she prayed with them.

Why would you expect her to stop praying for the disciples of her son, after she passed from this life?

Your confused here. The issue is not about her praying for the disciples but the disciples praying to her. No one in the NT ever prayed to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What this shows is a deviation from what the apostles taught in the NT.

guanophore
No, it is clear in the NT that the Apostles taught the believers to pray for one another, and that not even death can separate us from the love of God.

This is true. However the passage is not saying we are not separated from each other though. This is an important distinction to keep in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What years are you referring to when you use the term “early Church”?

guanophore
She was talking about the “apostolic” church, by which I suppose she means the time of the church while the Apostles were alive. However, it may be that she considers the Apostolic Church to be that which appears only in the NT, a premise that Catholics would reject.

justasking4;
In regards to being “cleansed” it is not fire that does this but the “blood of Christ”. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. I John 1:6-7

guanophore
Of course I am in agreement that there is no cleasing without the blood of Christ. However, everyones works will be purified with fire, and some of them will burn, having no eternal value, though they themselves will be saved.

Works and sin are 2 different concepts. The usual passage used by catholics is I Corthinians 3:10-15. This has to do with the materials used to build the kingdom and its not about sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If you are referring to some kind of spiritual benefit then this would be something unbiblical.

guanophore
I am indeed referring to spiritual benefit. Are you of the opinion that Christians cannot benefit one another spiritually?

We can benefit spiritually by that person’s example and teaching for example. As for some kind of spiritual beyond the grave that a person who has died in Christ can somehow benefit me spiritually i.e. grant me more grace or make me more Christ-like would be something the scriptures never teach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Another error. This priest class is not a church office in the NT. There is no description in the NT about a celibate man who has some special spiritual powers and authority in the NT.

guanophore
Yes, this is an error. The priesthood is not a “class”. The priest (referred to in the NT as a presbyter or elder) is a special vocation for the building up of the body of Christ.

How can that be when its never described in the NT?

Do you not believe that ordained persons have special spiritual power and authority in the NT?

What do you mean by “special spiritual power”?

---

 

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Nonsense. You and the catholic church does not know nor can it know what Jesus taught and did outside the NT since we have no record of it. To say that you it is “Sacred Tradition” is being deceitful on your part since you well know there is no evidence for it. Hiding behind some kind “Sacred Tradition” won’t do.

Only fools would harvest in their hearts such a demand. to think that they can come into God’s court and demand answers to their foolish questions such as these.

Only fools let out everything he knows. Proverbs

 

[sapamarogi]

if catholics did what you guys do, how many more denomitional churches do you think we would have?

Martin Luther left the false teaching of the Catholic church because he found the truth. We do not follow churches - we follow Jesus and His Word. The Word is our truth. I am not a denominational person, I am a believer in Jesus Christ who goes to a church which teaches the TRUE GOSPEL and believes in the Word only.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Martin Luther left the false teaching of the Catholic church because he found the truth. We do not follow churches - we follow Jesus and His Word. The Word is our truth. I am not a denominational person, I am a believer in Jesus Christ who goes to a church which teaches the TRUE GOSPEL and believes in the Word only.

and what church is that?

 

[peary]

Maybe sapamarogi is among those who believe that the Church forbid the Bible, and that caused apostasy? There does seem to be a misconception that Luther did not read the Bible the first 30 years when he was a Catholic.

Good grief, Luther was a professor of theology at the Univeresity of Wittenburg at the age of 24. He received a Master of Arts Degree and Doctorate of Philosophy by the time he was 21. He became a priest in 1507. How could Luther NOT read a Bible the first 30 years of his life? You are correct, it’s a major misconception about Luther.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Martin Luther left the false teaching of the Catholic church because he found the truth. We do not follow churches - we follow Jesus and His Word. The Word is our truth. I am not a denominational person, I am a believer in Jesus Christ who goes to a church which teaches the TRUE GOSPEL and believes in the Word only.

TRUE GOSPEL TEACHINGS:

! Luther wrote, “Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly…No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

 

[sapamarogi]

How is post helping with the topic at hand?

Because Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because it was always in Apostasy - it was teaching error.

 

[guanophore]

Good point. Now we can dismiss this idea that they prayed to her.

Don’t be silly, ja4. You dismissed that before you even considered it!

No doubt she prayed with them.
Your confused here. The issue is not about her praying for the disciples but the disciples praying to her. No one in the NT ever prayed to her.

No, ja4, it is YOU that is confused. For some reason, you cannot understand the ancient use of the language. When the Church uses the word “pray” we mean to “entreat” or “request”. All we are doing is asking others to join in our prayers. To intercede on our behalf. Perhaps you have no experience in court, but this is a formulation still used commonly in that venue as well. A plaintiff “prays the court”. It means asking for something.

This is true. However the passage is not saying we are not separated from each other though. This is an important distinction to keep in mind.

We are all joined into One Body, and we are members one of another. This is done by the love of God only. It is His love that keeps us from being separated from one another, as well as Himself.

Works and sin are 2 different concepts. The usual passage used by catholics is I Corthinians 3:10-15. This has to do with the materials used to build the kingdom and its not about sin.

Really? How can one commit a sin without “doing” something? Isn’t that a work? Are you saying that God has some investment in “material” things? Did He not say that His Kingdom was not of this world?

We can benefit spiritually by that person’s example and teaching for example. As for some kind of spiritual beyond the grave that a person who has died in Christ can somehow benefit me spiritually i.e. grant me more grace or make me more Christ-like would be something the scriptures never teach.

Well, we see it differently. Catholics believe that all members of the Body can benefit one another, in this world, and the next.

How can that be when its never described in the NT?

There are quite a few references to elders in the NT, ja4. The Apostles chose successors for themselves, called Bishops, and they had presbyters that assisted them. For those with eyes that are willing to see, this is described in the NT. Not only that, but the NT was never intended to be a complete record of the Church, so not being able to find everything in all detail is not a problem for persons of Apostolic Faiths.

What do you mean by “special spiritual power”?

It was you that asserted it doesn’t happen!

 

[guanophore]

To Guanophore:

Jesus said in Mark 7:6 -9 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me.‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of MEN.’ “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the TRADITION OF MEN.”

Also, “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the TRADITION OF MEN, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to CHRIST.” Colossians 2:8 (Read further on).

“for you have been BORN AGAIN not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through THE LIVING AND ABIDING WORD OF GOD.” 1 Peter 1:23 "BUT THE WORD OF GOD ABIDES FOREVER. ONLY THE WORD - JESUS

Are you posting these verses on this thread because you imagine that the Catholic Church has abandoned the teachings of Jesus and replaced them with the “traditions of men”? If so, what traditions are these, and how did they cause apostasy?

Because Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because it was always in Apostasy - it was teaching error.

Wait a second…if it was “always in apostasy”, then it was never really the Church. Are you one of those that believes that Jesus did not start a Church?

What error do you think was being taught?

I think you are in error. I don’t think Luther wanted to leave the church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Originally Posted by sapamarogi
To Guanophore:

Jesus said in Mark 7:6 -9 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me.‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of MEN.’ “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the TRADITION OF MEN.”

I believe Jesus was talking to the pharisees. the Church was not even in the scene yet. you seem quite confused. do you need directions?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Regarding traditions of men:

From whence came the 16th century traditions of
Sola Scriptura?
Sola Fide?
Once saved always saved?

I can’t find them in my Bible.

 

[justasking4]

Regarding traditions of men:

From whence came the 16th century traditions of
Sola Scriptura?
Sola Fide?
Once saved always saved?

I can’t find them in my Bible.

What do you make of John 10:27-29 in regards to “once saved always saved”?

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

What do you make of John 10:27-29 in regards to “once saved always saved”?

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

What if they don’t follow?

He gives, but does that guarantee that they accept?

They can not be snatched from His Hand, but can they jump out of His hand?

 

[justasking4]

Joe Kelley;3492839]What if they don’t follow?

If they don’t follow then this is an indication they were never His to begin with.

He gives, but does that guarantee that they accept?

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

They can not be snatched from His Hand, but can they jump out of His hand?

If they sin they geive the HS and there is also a discipline of the Lord as in Hebrews 12:3-11

 

[Good_Daughter]

Daughter I find no evidence for any of this. If there is no evidence I must assume it is not there. Can you show me differently?

Just because you can’t find evidence doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. You build a stronger case by backing your assertions than by pointing out the evidence you lack.

In trying to show the Catholic Church fell into apostacy, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. To this end, you seemed to assert in post #144 that change and development in the Church are signs of apostacy. That’s like saying I’m not the same person upon high school graduation that I was in kindergarden because in kindergarden I couldn’t do calculus, I could only add small numbers. Learning and developing didn’t make me no longer myself, in fact, they helped me become more fully who I am. It’s the same with Christ’s Church.

Though I’m no Catholic apologist, I would argue from reason that growth and development hardly constitute apostacy. I’ll look at your requests since none of the smart Catholics here have done so.

Prayer to Mary- Insofar as Catholics understand prayer (speaking, petitioning, thanking, etc.) it is likely that some in the apostolic church knew the Blessed Virgin personally and asked for her prayers. Considering “the prayers of a righteous man availeth much”, can you imagine being able to ask for prayers from someone described scripturally as “full of grace”? Who wouldn’t jump at the opportunity?

Statues and other idols- Idols, no. Images are referenced in the OT, even used in the Temple by the Jews (1 Kings 6 and 7). Didn’t God command statue/image making in Ex 25:18-19 and Num 21:8? The apostolic church would’ve been aware of the scriptures.

Purgatory- Also scriptural in nature (just not your scripture, probably). The apostolic church would certainly have been familiar with 2 Maccabees 12:44-46.

Indulgences- If you really want to know the beautiful theology behind this teaching and its history, please visit the Catholic Answers Library on the Home page. Look under Anti-Catholicism (surprise, surprise) for a Primer on Indulgences.

Celibate priestly class- Even for the apostolic church being celibate for the kingdom of God (as most Catholic priests are) was praised by Christ in Mt 19:12. Paul recomends celibacy for full-time ministers in 1 Cor 7:32-35. These are recomendations, not requirements and, as such, are part of Catholic discipline, not doctrine. Such things have always been subject to change when change is deemed prudent.

 

[pismopal]

Because Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because it was always in Apostasy - it was teaching error.

Please answer the question previously asked…What non apostasy non erroneous “church” do you belong to? Please share… where in the Bible does it say that the Church that Christ founded went into apostacy…or is this a saying of your “Prophet”. Is your “Prophet” the same one that denounced plural marriage because they Mormons wanted statehood and couldn’t attain it without doing away with plural marriage?
My G-d’s promise of a Church has never been reneged…how about your’s?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

. . .

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish;

Just because He gives it to us are we forced to accept it? Do we have no choice in the matter?

If they sin they geive the HS and there is also a discipline of the Lord as in Hebrews 12:3-11

But He pens them in? They can’t get away?

You appear to deny Free Will. We are His by compulsion; not by Love.

 

[justasking4]

Joe Kelley;3533519]Just because He gives it to us are we forced to accept it? Do we have no choice in the matter?

If you refuse the “gift” that Christ offers you then you are none of His. See Romans 8:9

But He pens them in? They can’t get away?

Not sure what you mean here.

You appear to deny Free Will. We are His by compulsion; not by Love.

No we do have a free will up to a point. I would think we are His by love. Did He not say there is no greater love than to lay down His life for His friends? We may come to Christ out of fear of hell by hopefully grow in love for Him…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Catholic church’s teachings have been here for 2000 years. If there were ever an apostacy this could not be the case. For the Catholic teachings reflect those of Jesus and the Apostles.

I must admit there were bishops who apostacised from the Catholic faith, but this early individual apostacies, does not prove at all that the Catholic church went into apostacy, it only confirms that the Catholic faith existed in the first century. It was the Saints and the Martyrs, including the first Catholic Popes went to their martyrdom to preserve the 2000 year old Christian tradition in the Catholic church.Which we still have today, and first century documents through the 2nd millenium proves that the Catholic faith has been here unchanged for these 2 millenium and scripture supports this Catholic faith.

For Mormons or non Catholics to claim an apostacy of the Catholic church some 1800 years later without any historical event or fact to support a false claim hangs in the balance of unreasonable minds and Lies.

I find it a sad religion who comes 1800 years later to make a false claim on a 2000 year old Catholic church. Started by an exprotestant himself, who is across seas from Rome and Jerusalem, to start up a religion on a Lie that the Catholic church went into an apostacy. In order to make victims of God’s sheep to the father of Lies. Not to mention more false claims to the history of the american Indians.

This lying will cease in time as Truth gets revealed in these days. No matter how Mormons or Seventhday adventist twist the scriptures and make their Lawyering tactics to distort the truth to try and convince God’s people to their newly, changed gospels that are other than the one Jesus and the Apostles gave us. They will have to answer for this deception of God’s children. I pray they repent and follow the Gospel of Jesus, not their own invented scriptures and deceptive doctrines that teach another Jesus and another gospel.