The Church of Jesus Christ was never in apostacy?

[Canto]

Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because he found the truth of the Word of God that says: “By grace you have been saved through Faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast.” Ephesians 2:8. He found the truth by reading the Word of God for himself and not letting man tell him what was right.

If only Catholics would read the Word of God for themselves and ask God to let them see the TRUTH so they could decide for themselves and not be influenced by man.

Lets read in context noting that the works condemned are works of the Jewish Mosaic law and not the faith in works of Christ

Ep 2:8-10 8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, that no man may glory.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

See also 1Cor 1:13 where he says that charity/love is **greater **than faith

Tt 3:7-8 7 That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs according to hope of life everlasting. 8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have thee affirm constantly, that they who believe in God may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1Tm:1:14: Now the grace of our Lord hath abounded exceedingly with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus.

Col:3:14: But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection.

Gal:5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

Rom:13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. **Love **therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

1Cor:16:14: Let all your things be done in charity.

Ti:2:7: **In all things shew thyself an example of good works, **in doctrine, in integrity, in gravity,

Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse **to himself **a people acceptable, **a pursuer of good works. **

Eph:4:15: But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:

James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone?
James 2: 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

Mt:16:27: For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then** he will render to every man according to his works.**

“I know your works and faith, and your charity,” the three together. -(Rev 2:19)

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.” (John 10:37)

Martin Luther found was he though was the truth. Many Christain denominations claim to have found the truth but can they all be right? After 1.5 millenimus did Luther all of a sudden realise the Church was wrong?

Us Catholics read the Word of God for oursleves and what we read is influenced by a man who is God - Christ, and we see the truth shining from the east to the west and believe

The Bible is called the Holy Bible. Why? Because that’s the name the Catholic Church gave it (Biblia Sacra)!

Can anyone point to a Bible beofre Jerome. Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own Bible.

Can anyone point to a Canon (contents page) beofre Pope Damascus (council of Rome 382 AD). Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own canon.

 

[peary]

Can anyone point to a Bible beofre Jerome. Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own Bible.

Can anyone point to a Canon (contents page) beofre Pope Damascus (council of Rome 382 AD). Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own canon.

Jerome wasn’t a Christian?

 

[Canto]

Jerome wasn’t a Christian?

Interesting that rather than answering the question you choose to slur Saint Jerome.

Who gave you the authority to decide that Saint Jerome was not a Christian.

Didn’t Jesus say judge not lest ye be judged.

St Jerome “…a most learned father and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him…” - Preface to the 1611 King James Bible.

“Do not, my dearest brother, estimate my worth by the number of my years. Gray hairs are not wisdom; it is wisdom which is as good as gray hairs At least that is what Solomon says: “wisdom is the gray hair unto men.’ [Wisdom 4:9]” Moses too in choosing the seventy elders is told to take those whom he knows to be elders indeed, and to select them not for their years but for their discretion (Numbers 11:16)? And, as a boy, Daniel judges old men and in the flower of youth condemns the incontinence of age (Daniel 13:55-59, aka Story of Susannah) St. Jerome, To Paulinus, Epistle 58 (A.D. 395).

 

[Canto]

Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary.
Show me where the apostolic church had statues and other idols inside their church.
Show me where the apostolic church taught purgatory.
Show me where the apostolic church taught indulgences.
Show me where the apostolic church taught a celibate priestly class.

Show me where the apostlic church prayed to Mary.

Bearing in mind that the people in heaven are alive, what is so wrong about asking Maryto pray for you? Esp. when she is the closest human to Jesus.

Show me where the apostolic church had statues and other idols inside their church.

Due to persecutuin the early Church met in houses and caves. What’s so wrong with having images to remind us of the wonders of Christ and the goodness of His mother and apostles, and His teachings and life etc? Didn’t Daniel venerate an angel (Daniel 8:17) and Moses make a statue of a serpant (Numbers 21:4-9)?

Show me where the apostolic church taught purgatory.

Rather then pasting verbatum scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
a pile of Biblical references

Show me where the apostolic church taught indulgences.

Matthew 16:19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound in the heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose in earth it shall be loosed also in heaven.

2 Cor 2 10. And whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, myself also that which I pardoned, if I pardoned anything, for you in the person of Christ,

Show me where the apostolic church taught a celibate priestly class.]

What’s wrong with being celebate? Can’t you devote more time to the Church instead of worriying about wife and kids? Didn’t Paul recommend celibacy c.f. Ch7 of 1Cor?

c.f. scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html scroll down to IV

As other’s have suggest on the contrary
Show us where the apostolic Church taught

1. Sola Scriptura
2. Sola Fide
3. Multiple denominations each teaching different doctrines and disciplines
4. Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, by our epistle and by our epislte only complety ignoring any tradition by word (oral).

And where in the bible does is say which books should be included? Who then decided? If the Holy Spirit guided someone who were they?

 

[dosdog]

Lets read in context

Can anyone point to a Bible beofre Jerome. Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own Bible.

Can anyone point to a Canon (contents page) beofre Pope Damascus (council of Rome 382 AD). Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own canon.

1952 – [Feb.] Bedouin discover 30 fragments of other scrolls in Cave 2, including Jubilees & ben Sirach in the original Hebrew.

– De Vaux locates Cave 4 less than 200 yards from Khirbet Qumran. 15000 of fragments of 574 mss. found including Aramaic versions 1 Enoch & Tobit, a scroll of Samuel that was closer to the Greek Septuagint than the official Hebrew text & fragments of a copy of the Damascus Covenant, a text that had been discovered in 1896 in the geniza of old Cairo synagogue.
gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_timeline.htm

“Eventually, some Jews rejected the Septuagint in favor of another Greek translation before, ultimately, rejecting any Greek translation as authoratative. The Hebrew text of the Hebrew bible would not be fully stabilized until the work of a group of Jewish scribes, the Masoretes, in the early Middle Ages; this became known as the MasoreticText. In addition to finally fixing the text, they added the vowels, (Hebrew does not use seperate letters to indicate vowels), divisions, punctuations, and musical notations that govern the liturgical readings of the Torah.”

Creating Judasim–History, Tradition, Practice -
by Michael L. Satlow - Satlow is an editor of Brown Judaic Studies and chair of the History and Literature of Rabbinic Judaism section of the Society of Biblical Literature, and previously taught at Indiana University, the University of Virginia and the University of Cincinnati before arriving at Brown in 2002. During the 2006/7 academic year he will teach “Judaism,” “Early Jewish Prayer,” “The Beginning of Judaism,” and “The Jewish Lifecycle.”
amazon.com/Creating-Judaism-History-Tradition-Practice/dp/0231134894/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-1886218-0658854?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186820215&sr=1-1

The early church was founded by Hellenistic Jews; naturally, they used the Septuagint. There are passages in the gospels and epistles where Jesus and Paul quote from the Septuagint: 300 of 350 quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. So while the Jews may have settled on the Palestinian canon by the early first century, the Christian church did not. apostate.com/2.0/english-bible-versions

 

[peary]

Can anyone point to a Bible beofre Jerome. Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own Bible.

Can anyone point to a Canon (contents page) beofre Pope Damascus (council of Rome 382 AD). Surley there were ‘true’ Christians’ with their own canon.

Canto -
You seemed to have referred to Jerome as not a ‘true Christian’ in your post. At least, that is how I interpreted it, and that is how it came across to me. Of course, Jerome was a Christian. And that is why I made the comment/question. I did not understand what you were getting at.

 

[Canto]

Canto -
You seemed to have referred to Jerome as not a ‘true Christian’ in your post. At least, that is how I interpreted it, and that is how it came across to me. Of course, Jerome was a Christian. And that is why I made the comment/question. I did not understand what you were getting at.

SORRY!

What I was ‘trying’ to illustrate was that some claim the Catholic Church did not give the world the Bible, so I was enquiring as to who did and if it was the Holy Spirit, who did He hand it to.

If the Church did give the world the Bible or at least the contents page, this in my opinion does not bode well for any apostasy theory.

the ‘true’ was in relation to the idea that there were other Christians (aside from heretics like those who denied the divinity of Christ) around at the time who came up with a contents page before those not so true apostasising Catholics.

The perils of not being able to talk to people face to face. Again sorry. Should have noticed your use of a question mark and your name which is a cleary giveaway of your fine other posts, that you would never think such a thing:thumbsup:

2 John 1:12
Having more to write to you, I am unwilling by paper and ink; for I hope to be with you and speak face to face; so that your joy may be full.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapamarogi
Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because he found the truth of the Word of God that says: “By grace you have been saved through Faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man boast.” Ephesians 2:8. He found the truth by reading the Word of God for himself and not letting man tell him what was right.

If only Catholics would read the Word of God for themselves and ask God to let them see the TRUTH so they could decide for themselves and not be influenced by man.

Not influenced by man? you just mentioned Martin Luther is your model for reading the Scriptures. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Their has never been an apostacy of the Roman Catholic church. Those that make this false claim are professing another messiah, and do not believe in the same Jesus as the 2000 year old Christian Tradition since Jesus built his Church on Peter.

Those that teach such a Lie of an apostate Church of Jesus Christ. Have found their teachings in the belief of a apostate church from another gospel, such as Mormons, Islam, Jehovah witnesses, Seventh day adventist derive their origin of belief from either a Man,or other. It is the Roman Catholic church that has outlived nations, countries, governments, religions and founded by Jesus Christ himself.

To my brothers and sisters who have been deceived from this false teaching I leave you this scripture:

Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel. 7 not that there is another. But there aere some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH TO YOU A GOSPEOL OTHER THAN THE ONE THAT WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET THAT ONE BE ACCURSED! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if ANYONE PREACHES TO YOU A GOSPEL OTHER THAN THE ONE THAT YOU RECIEVED, LET THAT ONE BE ACCURSED!

Their is only one faith, one baptism, one church, one Lord. And this body of Jesus Christ can be truly found present in the Roman Catholic church with the unchanged Gospel since the apostles and the resurrection of Jesus christ, that has the 2000 year old Christian Tradition and teachings of Jesus and his apostles.

Peace be with you all