The Church of the Future – a Lay Church

[Roseeurekacross]

You will get missionary Priests, just as we have. Places like Asia, Africa and India are seeing a wonderful interest in Vocations. And these missionary Priests are a great gift.

Pray for more.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Oh wait, @StephieNorthCo

Was that technically a prediction…

 

[Entwhistler]

There is a reason why the Church is not a democracy. I do hope that the Church is never run by the laity. Coming from a lay perspective (surprise, surprise), there is a lot of, um, diverse opinions amongst us. There is a reason why there is a seminary too.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Just an observation. A prediction would possibly be saying that Ireland will remain faithful thru the trial, and be repaid multiple times.

But I’m not a prognosticator.

Blessings,
Stephie

 

[Gorgias]

In Ireland there is a huge decrease in those seeking priestly ordination. All seminaries in the Republic of Ireland,except one, have been closed and this one has been condemned by Cardinal Dolan as has been the Irish College in Rome. The Archbishop of Dublin has forbidden his students to attend this national seminary.

Wow. This seems a substantial misrepresentation of the facts. Let’s review:

• In 2011, there was an Apostolic Visitation to Maynooth and to the Irish College in Rome.
• Unsubstantiated reports indicated that Cardinal Dolan was going to recommend that Maynooth be closed and its seminarians sent to Irish College, Rome. Cardinal Dolan released a statement denying these rumors.
• The Visitation to Irish College, Rome, disclosed issues with the leadership of the College. They subsequently left the college and returned to Ireland.
• In 2016, the archbishop of Dublin decided to pull his seminarians from Maynooth and send them instead to Irish College in Rome. (That happens from time to time; bishops (rightfully) decide that they’d prefer their seminarians to attend seminary here rather than _there, and act accordingly.)

So… none of this leads to your conclusion that “in the future there will be few Irish priests” or that “Mass will be replaced by services of Word and Eucharist, led by lay folk.” Moreover, your statement that “permanent deacons are not allowed in much of the country” seems suspect. On the webpage for the permanent diaconate of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference, we find the following assertion:

In 2001 the Irish Episcopal Conference received permission from the Holy See to proceed with the restoration of the Permanent Diaconate in Ireland. In 2005 approval was received for the document The Permanent Diaconate: National Directory and Norms for Ireland and this document was subsequently published by the Irish Bishops. These norms were approved for a further five years in 2011.

In March 2009 the Bishops appointed a national training authority to approve and monitor formation for permanent deacons in this country. This body ensures that the preparation of candidates for ordination to the diaconate is in keeping with the expectations of the Church. It is chaired by Bishop Raymond Browne.

So, I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around the assertions you’re making, since the ‘facts’ you cite in support of them seem not to hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I reckon they’ll import a few priests from Africa and the Philippines like they’re already doing in USA.

Could be a great career path for those willing to emigrate

 

[NoelFitz]

Gorgias
Thanks.

I see in the www

‘Irish Archbishops slam Cardinal Timothy Dolan’s report on Rome Irish
college’.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-archbishops-slam-
cardinal-timothy-dolans-report-on-rome-irish-college-159170715-237510771

The points I made can be checked by looking up the www. I do not consider I
have misrepresented the facts.

You might like to look at

Bishop of Killaloe delays introduction of male-only diaconate

Women in diocese had been ‘hurt and very disappointed’

www.irishtimes.com

 

[edwest211]

Vatican II made no such recommendation. Lay people will not replace the priest. Mass will not be replaced.

 

[jcrichton]

thanks for your post. I always enjoy them, since they make me think deeply

Hi, Noel!

Thank you for your kind words.

Your mention of Cain and Abel reminds me of Oklahoma! where the farmer (Cain, the tiller of soil) and the cowboy (the herder of flocks) should be friends. The bible does not give a reason for Cain’s actions or why God preferred the offering of Abel over that of Cain.

Yes, this is one of those issues that’s simply there… although many have made assertions about this or that and although we do not find an explicit “here’s the reason why…” we can surmise from the context and content that there are definite differences with both offerings–no, I’m not referring to the type of offering (blood sacrifice vs. grain/fruit/vegetable).

Check this out:

Yahweh looked with favour on Abel and his offering. 4:5 But he did not look with favour on Cain and his offering, (Genesis)

Clearly, it is Yahweh God that acknowledges a distinction between the two offerings.

Some propose that Abel’s offering was of a higher standard because it was a blood sacrifice. Yet, there’s no conclusive evidence that points to that as the requirements of the Law would take into consideration animal, grain, and oil offerings.

When we study the passage we find that there is indeed a difference:

Cain brought some of the produce of the soil as an offering for Yahweh,
Abel for his part brought the first-born of his flock and some of their fat as well. (Genesis 4)

So both brothers were moved to Worship God and each gave their offering from their respective livelihood.

Yet, not both employed the same heart and generosity:

Cain brought some of the produce of the soil

Did you see that? Cain brought some produce to Yahweh.

Abel for his part brought the first-born of his flock

Perhaps without realizing it Abel sets out to get the best of his stock (which coincidentally follows Yahweh God’s Salvific Plan: Promise: Firstborn) while Cain gathered “some” produce from his farm/terrain.

There is no mention of Cain claiming 'God, will have to accept my offerings now!’

Yeah, that’s just a personal liberty that I took; yet, if we follow the event we find that: a) Cain’s offering was not as pleasing to God as Abel’s; Cain felt that Abel had gain an unfair advantage over him; Cain did not change the method or offering but concluded that Abel had to die.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Joy!

What can I say to that but:

U R:



The only thing that can bring us together is





Prayer warriors are the stones that sustain the Body of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You don’t know how much you’ve sounded like Mom; that was her whole life… her devoting began quite early; at age six she made her firs Rosary (the Missionary Priests did not get to her edge of the woods till after all the materials were handed out); as soon as she was old enough, she traveled to Mass, several kilometers away–for perspective she had to travel before sun up (4 am or so) in order to make it to Mass)… her devotion to the Eucharist remained throughout her life as well.

Thank you for the memories!

…and yes, it is the Holy Spirit Who has Filled you with the Understanding of your Vocation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

Tis_Bearself,
in Ireland there are foreign priests. I have mentioned this.
Last Easter I got confession from a young Indian priest. He was wonderful and gave me encouragement and hope.
A problem with African priests is that it is difficult to understand what they say, and their sermons seem to go on and on.

 

[Cantankersaurus]

Regardless of everything else, the decline of obstinately, brazenly Catholic Ireland is sad.

 

[NoelFitz]

(name removed by moderator)
When you are praying for priests etc, please remember lay people. I am reminded of two quotes, one anonymosus “The role of the laity is to pray up, pay up and shut up” and also Fr Gilbey who claimed the role of the laity was to “hunt, to shoot and to entertain”. Blessed John Henry Newman wrote about the laity in the Church (see below).
One sees in the Bible
But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Pet. 2:9 NAB)
A priest in our parish claims that those in ministerial priestrhood and the priesthood of the laity are equal in dignity, they only differ in office.
In the old days it was considered that the laity assisted/attended Mass, now we participate.
I have been at Masses where there were many priests. Some concelebrated at the altar, some remained with the congregation, indicating all at Mass can participate.

---

NEWMAN ON THE LAITY
Rev. Michael Sharkey

“What is the province of the laity? To hunt, to shoot, to entertain,” (1) wrote Monsignor George Talbot in protest at the position John Henry Newman had expressed in his article On Consulting the Faithful in Matters of Doctrine, which was published in the Rambler in July, 1859. As John Coulson says of Newman, “his publication of this essay was an act of political suicide from which his career within the Church was never fully to recover; at one stroke he, whose reputation is the one honest broker between the extremes of English Catholic opinion had hitherto stood untarnished, gained the Pope’s personal displeasure, the reputation at Rome of being the most dangerous man in England, and a formal accusation of heresy proffered against him by the Bishop of Newport”. (2)
Talbot’s conception of the laity has since been caricatured in the remark that the laity are in the Church to “pray up, pay up and shut up!” The nub of Talbot’s anxiety was plain: “if a check not be placed on the laity in England they will be the rulers of the Catholic Church instead of the Holy See and the Episcopate”. (3) Even Bishop Ullathorne, Newman’s Ordinary, could ask, “Who are the laity?” As Newman noted, “I answered (not in these words) that the Church would look foolish without them”. (4)
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/NEWMNLAY.HTM

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m sorry you had trouble with the African priest, however I have one in my hometown parish in the States now and we do not have these problems with him. He did a wonderful job on my mother’s funeral and helped my own spiritual life through advocating praying for deceased souls. He is a real people person and others love him as well. I also visited a shrine and heard a wonderful homily by another African priest, who did not go on too long.

Please be careful about generalizations. It may be that the priests you have met were just not as well trained, but the only priest I’ve heard go on too long in the last 2 years was a regular old American born middle-aged one who was into charismatic Masses.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Yes but the longer anyone is in a country, the less broad their accent becomes. This is really not an issue. A Priest is a Priest,. We need them, from wherever they spring.

 

[Gorgias]

‘Irish Archbishops slam Cardinal Timothy Dolan’s report on Rome Irish
college’.

The points I made can be checked by looking up the www. I do not consider I have misrepresented the facts.

So… the men whose job Dolan and the visitors criticized spoke up and said he was mistaken? Big surprise.

Nevertheless, the Irish College has not been shut down, but the report’s recommendation that the administrators be sacked was followed.

You might like to look at

Bishop of Killaloe delays introduction of male-only diaconate

So… one – and to the best of my knowledge, only one – Irish bishop is not implementing a program leading to the ordination of deacons. That hardly rises to your assertion that deacons cannot be found in Ireland, now, does it?

 

[jcrichton]

I concur!

I think that there’s also an issue of perspective… in the US (at least in the parishes I’ve visited) people come in as they want and whenever and however they want; the one common theme is their dislocation: not the House of God, but a place to gather, to pay their traditional respects, and to wait out the important meets they have to attend!

I’ve seen “Mass” rushed as if the kickoff of the final cup game depended upon leaving the physical building, in exactly “x” minutes!

Other cultures may still retain that idea that when we walk into a parish’s Church building we are walking into the House of God for the Purpose of Meeting with God–the Consecration and the Body and Blood cannot be rushed… neither should the whole even of the Mass.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

The church is God’s house, and in it we should find a true community.
Some time ago we had a harvest festival in the church and on entering it I was given a glass of wine. We chatted and admired the exhibits, but I did not go into the sanctuary to see them, as I am still old-fashioned. I see both sides about being reverent in the church. Different views are held sincerely. Please look at http://www.newtownparkparish.com/
Having a gathering area at the back of the church where people meet can be justified, as the church (and Church) should be seen as welcoming all. That is why we are building a parish center for several million Euros.
Please remember my parish in your prayers.
[This is slightly off topic, but somewhat relevant]

 

[Duesenberg]

In Ireland there is a huge decrease in those seeking priestly ordination. All seminaries in the Republic of Ireland,except one, have been closed and this one has been condemned by Cardinal Dolan as has been the Irish College in Rome. The Archbishop of Dublin has forbidden his students to attend this national seminary.

How terribly sad. The impact the legion of Irish-born priests in the USA has been profound.

So in the future there will be few Irish priests, even at present priest are dying off. So, perhaps, Mass will be replaced more and more by Services of Word and Eucharist, led by lay folk, male and female, since permanent deacons are not allowed in much of the country.

Fewer Masses would be tragic. The sacrifice is the very heart of the Church. Communion services would be better than noting, but such a loss would be dire.

Why are permanent deacons not allowed?

There will be greater lay involvement in the Church, as recommended by Vat II.

How so? As property/facility managers? Bookkeepers? Secretaries? Janitorial/maintenance/grounds help? Catechists? The sorts of things that the laity should already be engaged in?

V2 said nothing about replacing clergy with laity.

Will this tendency be followed elsewhere? D you agree with my prediction and do you welcome this trend?

Hopefully not. This “trend” is awful. Hopefully Ireland’s priesthood will be fully rebuilt. If we look at how the Church began – under very trying times and circumstances, I believe that the Church will fully recover in Ireland – without further butchering it.