The Church put the Bible on the Index of Forbidden Books?

[JamesCaruso]

But now I know that it isn’t maturity, training, education, or any kind of knowledge that helps us understand what God’s Word is saying; it is the help of The Holy Spirit, who makes the word become alive for us, and gives us the meaning, at the same time causing the word to bring about conversion and change.

If only that simplistic formula were true!!! Alas, that kind of thinking has led to division throughout Christendom.

 

[jeansroses]

If only that simplistic formula were true!!! Alas, that kind of thinking has led to division throughout Christendom.[/QUtOTE]

But it’s not a “simplistic formula”; it’s not about applying a formula, it’s about what’s in your heart. Jesus said:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Whoever is willing to do his will understands my teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak for my own pleasure".
He’s saying that if you really want to do God’s will, you are beginning to be aligned with Him, and are therefore capable of receiving His truth. Usually God reveals His will and His truth to you according to your readiness to receive it and benefit from it. That’s why you can’t expect to fully understand the bible all at once; you have to go thru the process of sanctification, healing, restoration, cleansing, and reconciliation to God, waiting on Him for the Word that He will reveal to you for that purpose.

 

[JamesCaruso]

JamesCaruso;10829721:

If only that simplistic formula were true!!! Alas, that kind of thinking has led to division throughout Christendom.[/QUtOTE]

But it’s not a “simplistic formula”; it’s not about applying a formula, it’s about what’s in your heart. Jesus said:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Whoever is willing to do his will understands my teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak for my own pleasure".
He’s saying that if you really want to do God’s will, you are beginning to be aligned with Him, and are therefore capable of receiving His truth. Usually God reveals His will and His truth to you according to your readiness to receive it and benefit from it. That’s why you can’t expect to fully understand the bible all at once; you have to go thru the process of sanctification, healing, restoration, cleansing, and reconciliation to God, waiting on Him for the Word that He will reveal to you for that purpose.

Geesh! If none of the thousands and thousands of learned leaders of all the Christian sects were not able to finish the process you refer to, what chance does anyone have to know the truth!? But I’ll answer my own question-- because God saw that few men would be able to find the truth left on their own, he gave us his church and his promise that it would be inerrant in matter of faith and morals. In that way, everyone can come to know the fullness of truth. I think he had it well thought out, which goes without saying.

 

[adrift]

Why is this thread that is over two years old and OP no longer with us being posted to?

 

[JamesCaruso]

Why is this thread that is over two years old and OP no longer with us being posted to?

you’ll have to ask jeansroses. Apparently it interested him. I am just replying to his posts and they are current.

 

[jeansroses]

jeansroses;10849670:

Geesh! If none of the thousands and thousands of learned leaders of all the Christian sects were not able to finish the process you refer to, what chance does anyone have to know the truth!? But I’ll answer my own question-- because God saw that few men would be able to find the truth left on their own, he gave us his church and his promise that it would be inerrant in matter of faith and morals. In that way, everyone can come to know the fullness of truth. I think he had it well thought out, which goes without saying.

No, James,
absolutely NO Man is able to find the truth left on their own. We are all sinners, and God declared that no one is righteous, no one searches after Him.
Also, we are never expecting to “finish the process”; we simply come to know Truth gradually, as we can receive it, and it’s applied to the process of sanctification within. He never promised that His church would be inerrant in faith or morals or doctrine, etc.; but only that He would send His Holy Spirit, who would lead us into all truth and remind us of what Jesus said while on earth.
But since we are on a journey toward reconciliation with God and sanctification and renewal, we can never come into the knowledge of all truth, and no institution can claim to have “all truth”; only Jesus Himself embodies all Truth in Himself.
Any person that is relying on a religious institution for their salvation is a fool

 

[JamesCaruso]

JamesCaruso;10849824:

No, James,
absolutely NO Man is able to find the truth left on their own. We are all sinners, and God declared that no one is righteous, no one searches after Him.
Also, we are never expecting to “finish the process”; we simply come to know Truth gradually, as we can receive it, and it’s applied to the process of sanctification within. He never promised that His church would be inerrant in faith or morals or doctrine, etc.; but only that He would send His Holy Spirit, who would lead us into all truth and remind us of what Jesus said while on earth.
But since we are on a journey toward reconciliation with God and sanctification and renewal, we can never come into the knowledge of all truth, and no institution can claim to have “all truth”; only Jesus Himself embodies all Truth in Himself.
Any person that is relying on a religious institution for their salvation is a fool

Put the claim of infallibility aside for a minute. Even without infallibility in faith and morals, we have to reconcile those things which Christ gave his original church, including the Holy Eucharist, which the early Christians believed was the actual Body and Blood of Christ, apparently because Christ told them it was so; the power given to the Apostles to forgive sins (whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained); baptism for the remission of original sin; the imposition of hand to convey the Holy Spirit; and the discernment exercised by the early church in declaring which books were inspired and which were not, and upon which even your own understanding is based. One also has to question why Christ began an organization, the twelve, in the first place, if he did not intend to form a church. Why did the eleven remaining after Judas feel compelled to elect a replacement? Why did the early Apostles establish churches? Why did the early Apostles strive to act of one mind? Why was it important that Peter and Paul reconcile their differences? Why do you feel the Holy Spirit was to come to lead us “individually” to the truth, and yet Christ began a community with leaders (feed my sheep, feed my lambs), if he expected everyone to receive the Holy Spirit and go their own ways following the guidance of the Spirit? Everything seems to lead me back to one Church established by Jesus Christ and intended to lead the faithful in all truth, itself led and protected by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we each have the Holy Spirit to guide us, but if that were enough those who broke away to follow the Spirit on their own would not each be going off on a different path, some of those paths in seriously different and conflicting directions. My gut tells me you are wrong about this. Peace. James

 

[NHInsider]

JamesCaruso;10849824:

we can never come into the knowledge of all truth, and no institution can claim to have “all truth”; only Jesus Himself embodies all Truth in Himself.
Any person that is relying on a religious institution for their salvation is a fool

We do not rely on an institution. We are members of the Body of Christ. (I Cor. 12:27-31)

Jesus said to His Apostles “who hears you, hears Me.” Who else would you listen to? (Luke 10:16, John 17)

St. Paul said “Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise.” (I Cor. 3:18). So I guess I’m okay with being a fool.

Sally

 

[NHInsider]

JamesCaruso;10829721:

If only that simplistic formula were true!!! Alas, that kind of thinking has led to division throughout Christendom.[/QUtOTE]

But it’s not a “simplistic formula”; it’s not about applying a formula, it’s about what’s in your heart. Jesus said:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Whoever is willing to do his will understands my teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak for my own pleasure".
*He’s saying *

that if you really want to do God’s will, you are beginning to be aligned with Him, and are therefore capable of receiving His truth…

And the reason we should accept YOUR interpretation of Scripture as authentic is . . . .?

The point is, we ALL interpret Scripture. The question is, did Jesus make any provision for the possibility that individuals might misinterpret Scripture, or did He leave us to figure it out for ourselves, knowing (since He knows everything) that some people would get it wrong? Or are all the divergent, contradictory interpretations of Scripture true?

It has been observed that the alternative to an infallible Church is an infinite number of infallible individuals who disagree with each other . . .

 

[pocohombre]

JamesCaruso;10849824:

No, James,
absolutely NO Man is able to find the truth left on their own. We are all sinners, and God declared that no one is righteous, no one searches after Him.
Also, we are never expecting to “finish the process”; we simply come to know Truth gradually, as we can receive it, and it’s applied to the process of sanctification within. He never promised that His church would be inerrant in faith or morals or doctrine, etc.; but only that He would send His Holy Spirit, who would lead us into all truth and remind us of what Jesus said while on earth.
But since we are on a journey toward reconciliation with God and sanctification and renewal, we can never come into the knowledge of all truth, and no institution can claim to have “all truth”; only Jesus Himself embodies all Truth in Himself.
Any person that is relying on a religious institution for their salvation is a fool

I like what you said about the process, a journey. Perhaps the same attitude CC takes towards salvation-a journey, not set in concrete, not something to be haughty about, should be taken about their definition of church.

 

[JamesCaruso]

We do not rely on an institution. We are members of the Body of Christ. (I Cor. 12:27-31)

Jesus said to His Apostles “who hears you, hears Me.” Who else would you listen to? (Luke 10:16, John 17)

St. Paul said “Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise.” (I Cor. 3:18). So I guess I’m okay with being a fool.

Sally

Your quote makes it look like I posted those remarks. I did not. I believe it was jeanroses whose name appears at the top of the page. I’d appreciate it if you would edit this page.

 

[pocohombre]

But now I know that it isn’t maturity, training, education, or any kind of knowledge that helps us understand what God’s Word is saying; it is the help of The Holy Spirit, who makes the word become alive for us, and gives us the meaning, at the same time causing the word to bring about conversion and change.

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled, and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus"…vs 8-" Then Peter filled with the Holy Ghost said…". “For flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but the Father which is in Heaven” John(?). Job 32:“I am young, you are old… multitude of years should teach wisdom BUT there is a spirit in man, and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding, Great men are not always wise, neither do the aged understand judgement,Therefore listen to me and I will speak my opinion”. Speak on jeanroses and let those established in a multitude of years church listen to what they should have known.

 

[pocohombre]

. It’s just not true to say that the Church tried to prevent people from reading the Bible.

There is much myth to debunk and has been nicely here but there is also some truth to it.Your statement above is one of the weaker ones.It is a blanket statement trying to cover 2000 years of history of church dogmas,decrees and those within the church,covering both what is preached and what is practiced (sometimes the same, sometimes different). As C.S. Lewis said, “Those ignorant of history are slaves to the recent past”. That is, today throughout all Christendom, including CC, bible reading is encouraged, in ones own language and there is a plethara of bibles in all languages,and translations,and hopefully there are more than just one big bible on the coffee table in every Christian home. This has not always been the case, that is the encouragement or effort to make it possible. Some of the reasons have been provided nicely here, but to say they were all “benevolent” and non-political is quite subjective,and not true to history.

 

[jeansroses]

jeansroses;10861665:

Put the claim of infallibility aside for a minute. Even without infallibility in faith and morals, we have to reconcile those things which Christ gave his original church, including the Holy Eucharist, which the early Christians believed was the actual Body and Blood of Christ, apparently because Christ told them it was so; the power given to the Apostles to forgive sins (whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained); baptism for the remission of original sin; the imposition of hand to convey the Holy Spirit; and the discernment exercised by the early church in declaring which books were inspired and which were not, and upon which even your own understanding is based. One also has to question why Christ began an organization, the twelve, in the first place, if he did not intend to form a church. Why did the eleven remaining after Judas feel compelled to elect a replacement? Why did the early Apostles establish churches? Why did the early Apostles strive to act of one mind? Why was it important that Peter and Paul reconcile their differences? Why do you feel the Holy Spirit was to come to lead us “individually” to the truth, and yet Christ began a community with leaders (feed my sheep, feed my lambs), if he expected everyone to receive the Holy Spirit and go their own ways following the guidance of the Spirit? Everything seems to lead me back to one Church established by Jesus Christ and intended to lead the faithful in all truth, itself led and protected by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we each have the Holy Spirit to guide us, but if that were enough those who broke away to follow the Spirit on their own would not each be going off on a different path, some of those paths in seriously different and conflicting directions. My gut tells me you are wrong about this. Peace. James

hose things which Christ gave his original church, including the Holy Eucharist, which the early Christians believed was the actual Body and Blood of Christ, apparently because Christ told them it was so-]
Jean- no the original church did not have “the eucharist”—they continued with what Jesus had actually done when He said those words—they broke bread and shared wine amongst each other “in memory of Him, which He had requested them to do****.;

the power given to the Apostles to forgive sins (whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained); baptism for the remission of original sin; the imposition of hand to convey the Holy Spirit; and the discernment exercised by the early church in declaring which books were inspired and which were not, and upon which even your own understanding is based. One also has to question why Christ began an organization, the twelve, in the first place, if he did not intend to form a church. Why did the eleven remaining after Judas feel compelled to elect a replacement? Why did the early Apostles establish churches? Why did the early Apostles strive to act of one mind? Why was it important that Peter and Paul reconcile their differences? Why do you feel the Holy Spirit was to come to lead us “individually” to the truth, and yet Christ began a community with leaders (feed my sheep, feed my lambs), if he expected everyone to receive the Holy Spirit and go their own ways following the guidance of the Spirit? Jean- yes, the church was instituted by Jesus for very important reasons, such as being a place where believers would gather and hear God’s word, share their faith with and encourage each other, confess their sins to each other, and generally benefit from Christian fellowship. However, each one that attends that church is there because God Himself led them there, and is the Only One responsible for their faith, belief, and sanctification; He uses the bible or whatever He chooses to lead his individual child into all truth. Everything seems to lead me back to one Church established by Jesus Christ and intended to lead the faithful in all truth, itself led and protected by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we each have the Holy Spirit to guide us, but if that were enough those who broke away to follow the Spirit on their own would not each be going off on a different path, some of those paths in seriously different and conflicting directions. Jean: but can’t our individual paths be quite different from each others’? Maybe God knows exactly what will affect us in the way that brings about openness to Him and receptivity to what He wants to give us? He is not limited or intimidated by anything that we currently need to be doing, since, ultimately, He will subdue all things to Himself.

 

[jeansroses]

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled, and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus"…vs 8-" Then Peter filled with the Holy Ghost said…". “For flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but the Father which is in Heaven” John(?). Job 32:“I am young, you are old… multitude of years should teach wisdom BUT there is a spirit in man, and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding, Great men are not always wise, neither do the aged understand judgement,Therefore listen to me and I will speak my opinion”. Speak on jeanroses and let those established in a multitude of years church listen to what they should have known.

Thank you for your encouragement! I want to help challenge people to quit defending their religion, and draw closer to Jesus Christ as THE Way, Truth, and Life.

 

[JamesCaruso]

hose things which Christ gave his original church, including the Holy Eucharist, which the early Christians believed was the actual Body and Blood of Christ, apparently because Christ told them it was so-]
Jean- no the original church did not have “the eucharist”—they continued with what Jesus had actually done when He said those words—they broke bread and shared wine amongst each other “in memory of Him, which He had requested them to do****.;

the power given to the Apostles to forgive sins (whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained); baptism for the remission of original sin; the imposition of hand to convey the Holy Spirit; and the discernment exercised by the early church in declaring which books were inspired and which were not, and upon which even your own understanding is based. One also has to question why Christ began an organization, the twelve, in the first place, if he did not intend to form a church. Why did the eleven remaining after Judas feel compelled to elect a replacement? Why did the early Apostles establish churches? Why did the early Apostles strive to act of one mind? Why was it important that Peter and Paul reconcile their differences? Why do you feel the Holy Spirit was to come to lead us “individually” to the truth, and yet Christ began a community with leaders (feed my sheep, feed my lambs), if he expected everyone to receive the Holy Spirit and go their own ways following the guidance of the Spirit? Jean- yes, the church was instituted by Jesus for very important reasons, such as being a place where believers would gather and hear God’s word, share their faith with and encourage each other, confess their sins to each other, and generally benefit from Christian fellowship. However, each one that attends that church is there because God Himself led them there, and is the Only One responsible for their faith, belief, and sanctification; He uses the bible or whatever He chooses to lead his individual child into all truth. Everything seems to lead me back to one Church established by Jesus Christ and intended to lead the faithful in all truth, itself led and protected by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we each have the Holy Spirit to guide us, but if that were enough those who broke away to follow the Spirit on their own would not each be going off on a different path, some of those paths in seriously different and conflicting directions. Jean: but can’t our individual paths be quite different from each others’? Maybe God knows exactly what will affect us in the way that brings about openness to Him and receptivity to what He wants to give us? He is not limited or intimidated by anything that we currently need to be doing, since, ultimately, He will subdue all things to Himself.

Who are you trying to quote? you answering?

 

[JamesCaruso]

Thank you for your encouragement! I want to help challenge people to quit defending their religion, and draw closer to Jesus Christ as THE Way, Truth, and Life.

Yes, I wish they’d only defend the religion of Jesus Christ. Since he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, he must have known what he was doing when he established his Church, don’t you agree? So I agree that everyone should stop defending their religion and defend the religion of Jesus Christ, which traces its leadership all the way back to Peter, whom Jesus first put in charge. Thank you. If he only wanted us to follow him independently, he wouldn’t have had all these apostles to start churches to lead and teach the people in the faith, and he wouldn’t have told Peter three times to feed his flock. So we should all stop following man’s inventions, and follow the church given to us by the Savior, the same church that gave us the Christian Bible and first declared its writings to be inspired by God. So be not guilty of an independent spirit, denying the Church given by Christ, but join the community of believers as he intended, and the Church which alone has been given the role of conserver of the truth and conserver of the sacred scriptures.

 

[Michael57]

Oy vey! :whacky:

 

[JamesCaruso]

Oy vey! :whacky:

Meshuge?

 

[NHInsider]

Your quote makes it look like I posted those remarks. I did not. I believe it was jeanroses whose name appears at the top of the page. I’d appreciate it if you would edit this page.

I’m sorry, I just clicked the “quote” button and don’t know how to change/fix it.

Moderator??

Sally