The church taught reincarnation?

[Blue_Horizon]

Your vision of Mary and Jesus existing physically in Heaven seems to me to be somewhat limiting to Jesus’ ability to return the manifestation of His substance back to it’s original form without annihilating His identity.

Rudy
I did not actually say what you opine above.
I intentionally did not mention the highly ambiguous word “physically” which may be why you have issues with the traditional Catholic theology that I am espousing.
BTW If you research the meaning of “glorified body” I think your concerns will be addressed.

I was explaining that Heaven cannot be denied the label “place” simply on a logical inference from the fact that spiritual souls can be said to be in Heaven (souls, validly, do not have bodies or “place”).

The logic fails because, to quote Aquinas, “whatever is received is received according to the mode of the receiver.”

If I observe a cone at some distance from the side…that does not mean the cone is actually a triangle. The limitation is with me, not the cone, not reality.

 

[FrDonato]

I strongly concur with the posters who recommended that you report this strange teaching to someone in authority. If this was a diocesan-sponsored formation class for catechists, address your complaint directly to the Office of Catechesis, and CC the Bishop’s office. If this was a parish related event, then address the letter to your pastor. If he disagrees with you or takes issue with your complaint in a way that does not satisfy you, I would appeal directly to the Bishop’s office. If you still receive no reply, send your letter to the Apostolic Nuncio to the U.S. in Washington, DC and CC the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

Archbishop Carlos Maria Vigano
U.S. Apostolic Nuncio
3339 Massachusetts Ave. N.W.
Washington DC 20008

The Most Reverend Gerhard Ludwig Müller, Prefect
Sacred Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith
Piazza del S. Uffizio 11
00193 Rome, Vatican City
E-mail: cdf@cfaith.va

You will be doing everyone who is subject to this erroneous teaching a great charitable service!

 

[theotikos]

I feel sorry for this nun because her fellow catholics are judging her then she can’t hold her own beliefs in a dogmatic religion. Very sorry that she is going to be reprimanded but maybe its for the best so she can believe what she wants and not have it shoved down her throat.

 

[JRKH]

I feel sorry for this nun because her fellow catholics are judging her then she can’t hold her own beliefs in a dogmatic religion. Very sorry that she is going to be reprimanded but maybe its for the best so she can believe what she wants and not have it shoved down her throat.

There is no intent to judge this nun but rather to correct an erroneous teaching, though I would agree that some of the comments made here are a bit blunt.
If you examine the passage in Matthew 18:15-18 I think you will find that the advice given here is entirely within the spirit of that passage. Of course time, location and other factors can effect precisely how one approaches the matter of correction, but the underlying principle is the same.
This nun is in error, she needs to be corrected for her own good and the good of all who are affected by her teaching.

Peace
James

 

[JCnMe]

While I can’t say that the early Church “taught” reincarnation- it was part of it until the Council of Nicea in around 550ad…and then it was removed - but never by Papal decree- the Pope was under threat of death if he showed and never showed up- I believe it was Constantine who removed it… and it simply was never restored- the reasons the Nun gave were probably correct- it was more a political move than a spiritual one… the rest though is not standard Catholic protocol… if Heaven is real and it is- so are the lower levels of existence-doesn’t really matter what you call them-only that you try to avoid them:thumbsup:

 

[1ke]

While I can’t say that the early Church “taught” reincarnation- it was part of it until the Council of Nicea in around 550ad…and then it was removed - but never by Papal decree- the Pope was under threat of death if he showed and never showed up- I believe it was Constantine who removed it… and it simply was never restored- the reasons the Nun gave were probably correct- it was more a political move than a spiritual one…

I would really encourage you to learn more about your faith. There isn’t one thing in this entire paragraph that is accurate.

 

[JCnMe]

…And I would say the same to you-…my faith and my relationship with God are in good standing…despite your personal opinion…

 

[Bill_Martin]

I feel sorry for this nun because her fellow catholics are judging her then she can’t hold her own beliefs in a dogmatic religion. Very sorry that she is going to be reprimanded but maybe its for the best so she can believe what she wants and not have it shoved down her throat.

Holding beliefs is not the problem; teaching them as fact in a Catholic class is.

 

[XiWang717]

I attended a class today given by a Benedictine sister. Someone asked about Reincarnation, and she said that the Church taught it about 300 years ago, but stopped because people used it as an excuse to misbehave in this life. That raised a HUGE red flag. She went on to talk about how the planets are going to align soon and that that’s going to mess with the vibrations in our body, and our energy fields. She also said that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are all states of mind. They aren’t places we go to after we die, but things we’re living now. So when you have a bad day, it’s He’ll and when you’re having a good day you’re in Heaven.

I was deeply disturbed by everything she said. She was teaching a room full of catechists, and they all nodded in agreement. They were eating out of the palm of her hand and accepted everything she said without question. These people are gonna go out and teach these things to their classes! Am I exaggerating, or is she deeply wrong about these things?

I have read of such beliefs, and I think to some degree, I understand them. They are…thought-provoking, to say the least, and controversial in the extreme, of course. I will say only that she has her beliefs, and you have yours.

 

[Mystophilus]

I have heard this from my fellow Pagans, none have given me the source texts for this however.

A somewhat similar idea did exist in the early Church period: the belief that the soul pre-existed the body, and was placed in a particular body on account of acts committed in its pre-embodied state (q.v. section 16). People could easily confuse that with reincarnation, and confuse “some Christians believed it” with “Christians believed it”, and thus think that “it was Christian belief”, but it was only ever a heresy.

Further, because proper reincarnation is not only absent from but contradictory to fundamental Christian teaching (e.g., Hebrews 9:27, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”), it has never been orthodox Christian belief.

 

[XiWang717]

A somewhat similar idea did exist in the early Church period: the belief that the soul pre-existed the body, and was placed in a particular body on account of acts committed in its pre-embodied state (q.v. section 16). People could easily confuse that with reincarnation, and confuse “some Christians believed it” with “Christians believed it”, and thus think that “it was Christian belief”, but it was only ever a heresy.

Further, because proper reincarnation is not only absent from but contradictory to fundamental Christian teaching (e.g., Hebrews 9:27, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”), it has never been orthodox Christian belief.

Perhaps so. But on the other land, the Bible has never explicitly mentioned prayer to Mary either, yet millions of Catholics and the Pope himself do so every day.

 

[Mystophilus]

Perhaps so. But on the other land, the Bible has never explicitly mentioned prayer to Mary either, yet millions of Catholics and the Pope himself do so every day.

The Bible does not explicitly mention washing machines, automobiles, or computers, either, but, just like praying to saints, those are only “absent from” and not “contradictory to fundamental Christian teaching”.

 

[melekali]

I attended a class today given by a Benedictine sister. Someone asked about Reincarnation, and she said that the Church taught it about 300 years ago, but stopped because people used it as an excuse to misbehave in this life. That raised a HUGE red flag. She went on to talk about how the planets are going to align soon and that that’s going to mess with the vibrations in our body, and our energy fields. She also said that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are all states of mind. They aren’t places we go to after we die, but things we’re living now. So when you have a bad day, it’s He’ll and when you’re having a good day you’re in Heaven.

I was deeply disturbed by everything she said. She was teaching a room full of catechists, and they all nodded in agreement. They were eating out of the palm of her hand and accepted everything she said without question. These people are gonna go out and teach these things to their classes! Am I exaggerating, or is she deeply wrong about these things?

No, the Roman Catholic Church never taught reincarnation as if it were true.

 

[JRKH]

While I can’t say that the early Church “taught” reincarnation- it was part of it until the Council of Nicea in around 550ad…and then it was removed - but never by Papal decree- the Pope was under threat of death if he showed and never showed up- I believe it was Constantine who removed it… and it simply was never restored- the reasons the Nun gave were probably correct- it was more a political move than a spiritual one… the rest though is not standard Catholic protocol… if Heaven is real and it is- so are the lower levels of existence-doesn’t really matter what you call them-only that you try to avoid them:thumbsup:

I find the above very confusing…If you can’t say the Church “taught” reincarnation…how can you say reincarnation was part of the Church until the Council of Nicea when it was “removed”…Color me confused…

If it wasn’t part of Church teaching…Just what was it a part of?
If it wasn’t part of Church teaching…What was it “removed” from?

Makes no sense to me…

Can you provide source documents for this??

Peace
James

 

[FrDonato]

I feel sorry for this nun because her fellow catholics are judging her then she can’t hold her own beliefs in a dogmatic religion. Very sorry that she is going to be reprimanded but maybe its for the best so she can believe what she wants and not have it shoved down her throat.

Catholicism is based on divine revelation, the religious and moral truths that God has revealed for the sake of our salvation. It is a great gift from God and the only proper human response to God’s revelation is faith and obedience. Catholicism is not a religion where Catholics can believe what they want, accept this and not that. This is all the more true for a Catholic nun who has consecrated her life to God, and is bound to Him by a vow of obedience. If the nun is not teaching the truth of divine revelation, she needs to be corrected because her false teaching can do great harm to others. In this case, she was teaching catechists - other teachers of the faith, who will go into a classroom and spread those errors to unsuspecting children. If Sister no longer believes what the Catholic Church believes, then she should resign or take an extended retreat. No one is shoving divine revelation down her throat.

 

[Trishie]

Thank you Fr. Donato.

The wise and true counsel of a good priest is welcome and valued.

Welcome to this Forum.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you Fr. Donato.

The wise and true counsel of a good priest is welcome and valued.

Welcome to this Forum.

Amen…

 

[JCnMe]

JRKH- I say that because I wasn’t there to witness what was accepted or “taught” and neither were you-but as I said it wasn’t removed(it would have had to be part to be removed) from the Church until the council of Nicea around 550 ad-and then not by Papal decree but by political decree-it was never restored to Church doctrine for whatever reason-the Church was very political for hundreds of years and that can’t be ignored as a possible reason–you agreeing or disagreeing or not understanding- doesn’t change those facts…however- I totally agree with FrDonato that she should only be teaching what the Church is very clear on as their representative/teacher-her personal views-if different from Church teachings- are between her and God and should stay that way.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH- I say that because I wasn’t there to witness what was accepted or “taught” and neither were you-but as I said it wasn’t removed(it would have had to be part to be removed) from the Church until the council of Nicea around 550 ad-and then not by Papal decree but by political decree-it was never restored to Church doctrine for whatever reason-the Church was very political for hundreds of years and that can’t be ignored as a possible reason–you agreeing or disagreeing or not understanding- doesn’t change those facts…

You say these are “facts” and I am asking for your sources for these “facts” that you are presenting. Simply repeating your previous comments does nothing to advance the conversation. As you say, neither of us were there so you must be getting your “facts” from somewhere. I simply ask you to share them with us…

however- I totally agree with FrDonato that she should only be teaching what the Church is very clear on as their representative/teacher-her personal views-if different from Church teachings- are between her and God and should stay that way.

Peace
James

 

[JCnMe]

JRKH-I have no need to further the conversation- looked for the Catholic Encyclopedia I found it in years ago online- that seems to not be available any longer…the one accessible from here doesn’t have anything on Reincarnation at all- yea or nay… I did find this passage on Reincarnation and ancient Rome that nutshells some of what I have read before-although what I read before went more into the circumstances of the Pope not being part of the Council and not Constantines personal life or demons… you don’t have to believe it- you don’t even have to read it…makes no difference to me… There also are Biblical passages that imply reincarnation…Jesus referring to John the Baptist as Elijah is one that comes to mind…surely such references would have not been included in the first place if the early Church had an issue with it…but that was then-this is now… just food for thought

Ancient Rome
Reincarnation was a basic tenant of the Catholic church until the fourth century AD when the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to tailor it to his specifications. Roman, having been the dominant military leader was on the verge of change. The Christians had been a cult that had been persecuted for over 300 years. That is when they were throwing them to the lions.

The ancient religions of the Gods were slowly disappearing, since the extraterrestrial contact that had caused them in the first place was no longer happening. Gaul had broken away from the Empire. Rome saw it’s power slipping and the rise of another star coming.

The Roman Emperor Constantine married his way into power. His wife mysteriously disappeared. His second wife was his ticket to the throne. Then he had her killed. His third wife was a prostitute who had risen to the throne in the same diabolical ways Constantine had and who lived to have a devastating effect on the belief in reincarnation. She feared that her sins would follow from lifetime to lifetime infuriated her. She did not like the idea of Karma. Her life was filled with lies and treachery. She was not interested in advocated any religion that would demote her in another life. Thus she persuaded Emperor Constantine to remove reincarnation from Christianity.

Constantine, for all reports was vain and fearful for his many sins. He considered himself on one hand to be the incarnation of the Gods Apollo, Mytha, Jupiter, and Christ. On the other hand he was afraid that when he died he would anger these Gods in heaven. He was the first Roman Emperor to support complete religious freedom of all faiths so that when he got to heaven no God would want to take vengeance on him personally.