"The Church teaches now what it taught 2000 years ago!"

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IvanKaramozov

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I constantly hear this claim in response to non-Catholics who wish to know the attributes of the Church. She preserves truth reguardless of the times and her truth has never shanged.

Yet I think history suggusts otherwise. The most obvious example would be extra ecclesiam nulla sallus, can anyone truly, with any semblence of intelectual honsty tell me that the Church has remained consistent and unchanging in this issue?

It seems now that many Catholics beleive Jews will be saved, St. Edith Stein even claimes to have seen her Jewish mother in heaven, and I beleive Pope John Paul II said something to this effect, yet clearly the early(er) Church taught that Jews were not saved.
The Council of Florance for example.
“It (the council) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”

Thoughts?
 
Great question Vanya,

I think in any tradition you are going to have an inevitable clash between fundamentalists and modernists, and the pendulum will swing back and forth as the ages pass.

I’ve been interested to see how the current pope will influence Christian (and secular) thought. He’s a brilliant man, and this non-Catholic is pretty impressed with him, but at the same time he’s a very complex personality and it’s hard to pin him down. I wonder if he’ll drive things in one definite direction or another. I suppose only time will tell.

In any event, I look forward to reading responses pro and con.
 
UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
 
LaMar said:
Great question Vanya,

I think in any tradition you are going to have an inevitable clash between fundamentalists and modernists, and the pendulum will swing back and forth as the ages pass.

I’ve been interested to see how the current pope will influence Christian (and secular) thought. He’s a brilliant man, and this non-Catholic is pretty impressed with him, but at the same time he’s a very complex personality and it’s hard to pin him down. I wonder if he’ll drive things in one definite direction or another. I suppose only time will tell.

In any event, I look forward to reading responses pro and con.
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someone said of Bennedicts intelect, “it’s hard to see how all that can fit in his small head”(approximately).

I think that’s a good description of him. He’s a fairly extraordionary intelectual powerhouse to put it lightly. I’ve always been impressed with him, I started reading him in 10th grade and have never ceased to be impressed.
 
tbuley said:
UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Click to expand...
So much for a chance of this being a charitable thread.
 
unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."
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I fail to see how this ‘contradicts’ Church teaching ‘today’.

“Unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives”. . .and how they are joined is what is known to God. Since we know that there is no other name but Jesus by which we may be saved, non-Christians who are not baptized for example, if they are saved, are saved through Jesus even if they don’t ‘know’ Him. Likewise, nonCatholics of any stamp are saved by Jesus–as are we all–through His Name and BY the Catholic Church. . .whether we ‘know’ it or not.

If the Jews, pagans, heretics, etc. have somehow ‘grasped’ (without knowing) that Jesus is Lord, they have done so ‘through’ the Catholic Church. We don’t know ‘how’. We could speculate. . .there may indeed be many answers as the way in which an individual was ‘saved’ through the Church might differ from the way another individual was saved. God knows. We don’t.
 
IvanKaramozov said:
I constantly hear this claim in response to non-Catholics who wish to know the attributes of the Church. She preserves truth reguardless of the times and her truth has never shanged.
Click to expand...
It’s fine with me if this is your “gotcha” moment concerning the Catholics.

So where should Catholics go? To the denoms who through sins of omission are allowing, even promoting their own demise through contraception? To secularized Protestant teachers who are afraid to tell the whole truth? Who downplay abortion as "an unfortunate necessity?

There was a time when all the arguments between Protestants and Catholics were theological.

Now they are moral arguments.

We all know Protestantism has changed their morals teachings.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
non-Christians who are not baptized for example, if they are saved, are saved through Jesus even if they don’t ‘know’ Him. Likewise, nonCatholics of any stamp are saved by Jesus–as are we all–through His Name and BY the Catholic Church. . .whether we ‘know’ it or not.

If the Jews, pagans, heretics, etc. have somehow ‘grasped’ (without knowing) that Jesus is Lord, they have done so ‘through’ the Catholic Church. We don’t know ‘how’. We could speculate. . .**there may indeed be many answers as the way in which an individual was ‘saved’ **through the Church might differ from the way another individual was saved. God knows. We don’t.
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:confused:

I think the Bible is clear on how and who is saved
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

I posted the quote from the papal bull because I understand now that Rome teaches of “the anonymous christian” in its catechism, and that the shifting sands of tradition seem to change like its teaching.
 
tbuley said:
:confused:

I think the Bible is clear on how and who is saved
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

I posted the quote from the papal bull because I understand now that Rome teaches of “the anonymous christian” in its catechism, and that the shifting sands of tradition seem to change like its teaching.
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Speaking of shifting sands, how does your Church handle the contraception issue? We all know how Martin Luther handled it.

Or possibly are you of the Wisconsin synod?
 
mark_a said:
It’s fine with me if this is your “gotcha” moment concerning the Catholics.
Click to expand...
I have no antimosity towards the Catholic Church, I was raised Catholic, seriously cosidered becoming a Franciscan Friar in High School, and still attend Mass semi-regularly, however I am not firm in my beleifs and am asking serious questions.
So where should Catholics go? To the denoms who through sins of omission are allowing, even promoting their own demise through contraception? To secularized Protestant teachers who are afraid to tell the whole truth? Who downplay abortion as "an unfortunate necessity?
Click to expand...
You could be Orthodox Jews:shrug:
There was a time when all the arguments between Protestants and Catholics were theological.

Now they are moral arguments.

We all know Protestantism has changed their morals teachings.
Click to expand...
So has Catholicism, we certianly once had different teachings concerning marriage.
 
IvanKaramozov said:
I have no antimosity towards the Catholic Church, I was raised Catholic, seriously cosidered becoming a Franciscan Friar in High School, and still attend Mass semi-regularly, however I am not firm in my beleifs and am asking serious questions.

You could be Orthodox Jews:shrug:

So has Catholicism, we certianly once had different teachings concerning marriage.
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So, what religion are you? I’m willing to let God sort out who is Catholic and who isn’t unless they are blatently anti-Catholic or pick and choose while pretending to be Catholic. That doesn’t change the truth that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

What are these different Catholic teachings about marriage? I know of none.

CDL
 
I bet this has been asked before, but:

By the decrees of the First Vatican Council, working retroactively (as, doctrinally, they should) is not “Unam Sanctam” an infallible document?

It is a Papal proclamation of a dogma regarding faith AND morals which contradicts nothing earlier and is addressed not only to all Christians, but to all nations.

Hmmm…

Also, wouldn’t the decrees of Florence be likewise infallible; they are fairly clear cut, too.
 
mark_a said:
Speaking of shifting sands, how does your Church handle the contraception issue? We all know how Martin Luther handled it.

Or possibly are you of the Wisconsin synod?
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No, I was baptized in the LCMS congregation and still am a member of that church. I’ve only been in it for around 4 years but know it is of the few denom. to have turned back a liberal trend, although some of the congregations now have bought into the church growth movement I’ve heard. If someone holds to a confessional Lutheran view I think they would agree that one should not use any type of contraception for it would cheapen what God had planed. Yes shifting sands of human traditions, one must remain Christ centered and cross focussed relying on Grace alone, Faith alone, Christ alone.

I did not mean to try and single out the R.C.C. or any denom. or synod I think you see changes in all over time, face the altar face the people speak in latin or english. I attend my church for the Word and sacrament.
 
tbuley said:
I did not mean to try and single out the R.C.C. or any denom. or synod I think you see changes in all over time, face the altar face the people speak in latin or english. I attend my church for the Word and sacrament.
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I’m no fan of Karen Armstrong, but I think she’s correct when she says that religions that don’t change die out.
 
tbuley said:
I did not mean to try and single out the R.C.C. or any denom. or synod I think you see changes in all over time, face the altar face the people speak in latin or english.
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Those are changes in ceremonial practice, not in doctrines. Practices can change to help us live out our beliefs in a given place and time. Doctrines (beliefs) can never change. One of the biggest source of confusion in Protestantism is the failure to distinguish between doctrines and practices.

Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
Those are changes in ceremonial practice, not in doctrines. Practices can change to help us live out our beliefs in a given place and time. Doctrines (beliefs) can never change. One of the biggest source of confusion in Protestantism is the failure to distinguish between doctrines and practices.

Paul
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Do you view the R.C.C. doctrine of Grace to have changed from Saint Augustine to Trent?
Is it just practice what I see them doing down in South America with the hybrid ceremonies?
 
tbuley said:
Do you view the R.C.C. doctrine of Grace to have changed from Saint Augustine to Trent?
Is it just practice what I see them doing down in South America with the hybrid ceremonies?
Click to expand...
For instance?

Source where you get the information?

Please.
 
IvanKaramozov said:
I constantly hear this claim in response to non-Catholics who wish to know the attributes of the Church. She preserves truth reguardless of the times and her truth has never shanged.

Yet I think history suggusts otherwise. The most obvious example would be extra ecclesiam nulla sallus, can anyone truly, with any semblence of intelectual honsty tell me that the Church has remained consistent and unchanging in this issue?

It seems now that many Catholics beleive Jews will be saved, St. Edith Stein even claimes to have seen her Jewish mother in heaven, and I beleive Pope John Paul II said something to this effect, yet clearly the early(er) Church taught that Jews were not saved.
The Council of Florance for example.
“It (the council) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I like that the pope said. the catholic church is the only way, and they who are not under it cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire. Thats what is said all along.
 
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