The Church teaches that women cannot be priests because of the example set by Jesus in selecting the apostles. So why are women allowed communion?

[Elizabeth3]

I think the writer was saying that if one gender is an authority over the other then that is power and domination even when one gender believes it to be right. Both genders can participate in service and love of each othe

I want to be clear that I don’t think men have authority over women in general. However I don’t think a male priesthood, bishops and pope over all the faithful IS power and domination like the article suggests. It would only be power and domination if it wasn’t an authority of service in love and because it is that type of authority, it will take counsel, advice, consultation, and expert opinion from those under authority because they are recognized to also be guided by the Holy Spirit so that decisions take all of that into account along with making sure to be within the will of God.

More later…have to make dinner.

 

[Elizabeth3]

I don’t think God needs another outside force, God has everything all in one. If motherhood implies something untrue about God in his relation to creation, then so would fatherhood, because one can’t be a father without a mother, unless we are restricting these terms to humans only.

I agree that God has everything all in One -characteristics of motherhood and fatherhood, but that’s the point. It’s all in One, whereas with humans it takes two. So do we call that One, Father or Mother? It can’t be both or that would be to project the duality of human parenthood onto God who is One.

I think it’s good to meditate on what motherhood reveals about God’s inner life but that doesn’t mean we can consider God as Mother. Motherhood DOES imply something untrue about God in relation to us but that doesn’t mean that everything about motherhood is untrue as far as showing us some characteristics of God. A human mother receives that which is outside of herself in order to be mother. There may be some kind of characteristic of God WITHIN His inner life of the members of the Trinity in their eternal exchange of love that motherhood reveals something about, but we are still talking about something that happens in God’s inner life, not something in relation to us. We can’t extract out some action of that inner life and call that Mother. Whatever that action might be, it is still in the context of the whole One, Undivided God who created us. It will probably always be a mystery.

Here’s a quote by Christopher West in which we can see that there are some characteristics of God that human love between male and female reveal to us but that is all WITHIN God’s inner life among the Three Persons and does not show His being Mother in relation to His creation.

“A ‘common union’ (communion) of persons is established to the degree that persons mutually give themselves to one another in sacrificial love… The Father eternally ‘begets’ the Son by giving himself to and for the Son. In turn, the Son (the ‘beloved of the Father’) eternally receives the love of the Father and eternally gives himself back to the Father. This ever-shared, ever-spirating love is the Holy Spirit who, as we say in the Nicene Creed,’proceeds’ from the Father and the Son.’ ….Perfect love–perfectly and eternally given, perfectly and eternally received, perfectly and eternally returned -that’s God.”

So if we have to choose whether to call God Father or Mother because He is One and not two, we can see that Father is correct in relation to His creation. He transcends humanity, is distinct from humanity, and is the origin of humanity.

Lastly, we must be obedient to Christ who told us to call God, Our Father, who is also His Father.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, but the last decision will always remain with a man.

 

[simpleas]

Motherhood DOES imply something untrue about God in relation to us but that doesn’t mean that everything about motherhood is untrue as far as showing us some characteristics of God

It suggests that women aren’t really made in the image of God, at least to me.

I think I’ve just discovered something very lacking in my faith. Never noticed it before, because the feminine side that is familiar has been found in Our Lady, and some of the female saints.

It’s a very interesting topic, a lot of the old religions always had a female deity, of course they are classed as pagan and so not of God at all.

More research is needed by me.

 

[Lea101]

Have a choice for what?

Sorry I just saw this reply when I was looking through the thread.

What I meant to say was, it doesn’t matter is Catholicism is sexist if the faith is truth (and if the faith is truth, that means the ‘problem’ would lie in God rather than the clergy), and if we choose not to follow that, we burn.

It’s not a fun thing to hear but I guess that’s what I’m trying to say. If I believe it’s Truth then I gotta suck it up, right?

 

[simpleas]

No problem.

I don’t think anyone would ‘burn’ plenty of people change faiths for numerous reasons, but they are still part of the body of Christ if they are living according to Jesus’ words and deeds.

If you believe it’s Truth then you wouldn’t have to ‘suck it up’ would you? You would be content in all the church’s teaching.
You can work on those parts you don’t understand.
Some things are classed as mystery anyway.

The clergy is made up of mortal men, limited in their knowledge of God, as are all of us. But God on the other hand a perfect being.
I suppose it’s an individual, personal matter, that one needs to work on.

 

[Lea101]

I don’t think anyone would ‘burn’ plenty of people change faiths for numerous reasons, but they are still part of the body of Christ if they are living according to Jesus’ words and deeds.

Sure but I was referring to one walking away from Catholicism even though he/she believes that it’s true. Because that would be you walking away from God. It’s different from others living their own faiths without much knowledge about ours.

If you believe it’s Truth then you wouldn’t have to ‘suck it up’ would you? You would be content in all the church’s teaching.

You can work on those parts you don’t understand.

Some things are classed as mystery anyway.

Well that depends on the person. Matter of pride and our own desires I think. If God were to come down and say something we don’t agree with, we would not immediately be okay with that. There’s some sort of wrestling that would happen. Some of us would seek to know why when we don’t understand something, like what you’re doing now, which is really good.

However I guess it’s worth mentioning that we should not judge God by our standards? (e.g. You said that God is a perfect being, which is true, but you imply that it means that women priests are not forbidden by him because he is your idea of perfect). Don’t know if I’m making much sense here, lol. I’m exhausted from today.

The Church definitely has some sexism, but I don’t know how much of it is from the sin of man and how much of it is valid (in other words, from God). But I don’t think male priesthood is sexist at all, so I guess we differ on that. That being said, it’s not something I fully understand either. Hence I’m lurking here, though I must admit I’m more confused than before.

 

[simpleas]

Sure but I was referring to one walking away from Catholicism even though he/she believes that it’s true. Because that would be you walking away from God.

Can’t help but think that one can’t ever ‘walk away from God’ in that one can still believe in God.

The Church definitely has some sexism, but I don’t know how much of it is from the sin of man and how much of it is valid (in other words, from God). But I don’t think male priesthood is sexist at all, so I guess we differ on that. That being said, it’s not something I fully understand either.

Yes I can identify with not fully understanding.

Just so I can maybe understand what you are saying…How is the church sexist, but an all male priesthood isn’t sexist?

I don’t think I’m judging God when I question something like an all male institution.
I’ve read that people assume that it’s our pride/desires when people seek change.
But like I said earlier in the thread, we are trusting the Holy Spirit to guide the church, and the church even admits that more research is needed for the role of woman in the church.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, but the last decision will always remain with a man.

Jesus? Yeah… I’m cool with that, then.

 

[simpleas]

:+1:t2: like it

 

[Elizabeth3]

Yes, but the last decision will always remain with a man.

If the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, then the last decision will always remain with God.

However, taking your exact statement, I would say…

Yes, but the last decision will always remain with a man…who is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit and who also counts himself as an individual as part of the Body of Christ and listens to the Body because he recognizes that the Body is also guided by the Holy Spirit.

Why would this be a bad thing?

What doctrines and infallible teachings on faith and morals are incorrect or are harmful and that would have been better if women were ordained?

If Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would protect the Church, guide it into all truth, and the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against it, then why does it matter that’s it’s men who are ordained as Christ the Head?

Has the Church been limping along for 2000 years because some vital part of the truth which only women can receive and pronounce as Head is missing?

 

[Zaccheus]

It suggests that women aren’t really made in the image of God, at least to me.

Um, how so? God the Father doesn’t have a body, or need one. Nor does God the Holy Spirit. God the Son has a body because He was born into the world for our sake. In His own nature, it was not necessary.
How then is woman less made in God’s image than man?

 

[Elizabeth3]

Motherhood DOES imply something untrue about God in relation to us but that doesn’t mean that everything about motherhood is untrue as far as showing us some characteristics of God

It suggests that women aren’t really made in the image of God, at least to me.

That would only make sense if the Church actually taught that…and it never has.

But the fact that human fatherhood NEEDS a woman in order to be fruitful also implies something untrue about God in relation to us but that doesn’t suggest men aren’t really made in the image of God either.

It’s a very interesting topic, a lot of the old religions always had a female deity, of course they are classed as pagan and so not of God at all.

They also project the duality of humanity onto a God who is One.

 

[Lea101]

Can’t help but think that one can’t ever ‘walk away from God’ in that one can still believe in God.

What do you mean by this?

Just so I can maybe understand what you are saying…How is the church sexist, but an all male priesthood isn’t sexist?

I wouldn’t be quick to call the church sexist, it’s just that there have been instances of sexism. What old church fathers said, for example. Or those hard-to-swallow Bible verses. Are those interpretations infallibly correct or is it just us modern Christians trying to sugarcoat things. More modern ones that Catholics are debating would be stuff like Ephesians 5, views towards motherhood/fatherhood/virginity and the feminine genius. I also see trad cats being against altar girls and women giving out Holy Communion and stuff like that.

I don’t think the male priesthood is sexist (in the sense that men forbade women, rather than God) because, simply put, Jesus is a man and God revealed himself in masculine terms. So I’m guessing that’s intentional for some reason. I don’t know how to understand it, especially in a modern context, but because of that I believe that it was God who said no women for priests.

I’m just skeptical about the overly deep theology behind it. There seem to be no sources about it, just personal interpretation? I don’t know why: if there’s a deep reason or maybe God just favors men (lol) or it’s a random decision.

 

[simpleas]

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that men are priests, I’m not saying only women could receive something that men can’t.
Considering men and women have psychological difference, I’d take a stab at suggesting that some of the not so christian things that the church let happen may have be reduced or would not have happened at all, if a woman had had a say in those decisions.

 

[simpleas]

The fact is also that God is a pure spirit, Masculine AND Feminine, or else we would all be males able to reproduce without another opposite to us. What was the point of God making a female in his own image and likeness, but the say, I’m purely Masculine?

We can believe God is masculine and Feminine but at the same time ONE.
As human beings created as creatures, but with a soul, different in gender and able to participate in procreation with the one God, we still as individuals become One with God when we eat and drink the body and blood of Christ.

There’s lots of stories of Gods and goddess, some good some bad.

 

[simpleas]

What do you mean by this?

Being baptised into Christ as a new creation can’t ever be undone. Granted people can walk away from the church, but I don’t think they can easily walk away from God.

I wouldn’t be quick to call the church sexist, it’s just that there have been instances of sexism. What old church fathers said, for example. Or those hard-to-swallow Bible verses. Are those interpretations infallibly correct or is it just us modern Christians trying to sugarcoat things. More modern ones that Catholics are debating would be stuff like Ephesians 5, views towards motherhood/fatherhood/virginity and the feminine genius. I also see trad cats being against altar girls and women giving out Holy Communion and stuff like that.

I was really surprised when I discovered how woman were thought of many years ago.

Ephesians 5 reads to me, a teaching on how husbands and wives should trust and love each other.
Maybe in that time a lot of women were treated as property of their husbands and so not loved at all like Jesus loved everyone.
Yes there are some who would drag the church back centuries, but I don’t think (could be wrong) that there are many Catholic’s who think like that.

Thanks for explaining what you meant.

Yes, I quoted the 1976 Pontifical Biblical Commission that was put together to investigate women priests a number of posts back, not sure if it was over looked. -

In April 1976 the Pontifical Biblical Commission concluded unanimously: “It does not seem that the New Testament by itself alone will permit us to settle in a clear way and once and for all the problem of the possible accession of women to the presbyterate.” In further deliberation, the commission voted 12-5 in favor of the view that Scripture alone does not exclude the ordination of women, and 12-5 in favor of the view that the church could ordain women to the priesthood without going against Christ’s original intentions.

Bishops are more intelligent, have studied theology and can speak better than I can and they didn’t come to any complete conclusion it seems back in '76.

Editorial: Ordination of women would correct an injustice | National Catholic Reporter

Lots of words are thrown around, like injustice, sexist etc, I’m not sure they would be fully true, I’m thinking the church has just developed as it should through the centuries, and would come to a better conclusion if the door hadn’t been closed forever…

 

[MonteRCMS]

National Catholic REPORTER is a radical left wing newspaper … founded in 1964.

The National Catholic Reporter is an American Roman Catholic newspaper. Based in Kansas City, Missouri, NCR was founded by Robert Hoyt in 1964

Whereas, the National Catholic REGISTER is mainstream and was founded in 1927.

The National Catholic Register is the oldest national Catholic newspaper in the United States. It was founded on November 8, 1927, by Matthew J. Smith as the National Edition of the Denver Catholic Register.

For many years, the REPORTER copied the DESIGN of the masthead/front page of the REGISTER which caused great confusion.

 

[simpleas]

see post 245

 

[Vico]

Jesus selected only men as apostles. This is taken to indicate that he did not want women to be priests or bishops. He gave his body and blood only to men. Why does this not indicate that women should not receive communion?

John 6

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said to them:

Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 54 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

59 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.