The Church Visible

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Has anyone read The Church Visible by Noonan?(1) What do you think about this book? I am not so interested in comments on the style of writing. I have clear opinions on that. I am more interested in comments on its accuracy.
  1. Noonan, James-Charles, Jr. (1996) The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life and Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church. New York, USA: Viking Penguin. (ISBN 0-760-86754-4)
 
Trishie said:
teddybarboza.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-visible-ceremonial-life-and.html

There are surely good reviews available, but so far I have not found much except for the content of this blog, in which some comments are made regarding accuracy ascribed to an unnamed master of ceremonies.
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So far, I would be inclined to agree with the review to which you linked. The book has errors in matters of which I am sure. That always leads me to think that the rest of the book must be full of similar errors, even if I do not know. I am very glad that the book cost me far less (it’s a very recent purchase) than most second hand sellers want for it (it’s out of print).
 
I’ve been trying for some time to find other reviews, specifically from a reliable ecclesiastical source…but so far have found none, though doubtless some exist.

Archbishop John P. Foley is editor of the book…I’ve included a link to his biography in hope you can assess something regarding his scholarship there, vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/oessh/oessh-biografia_foley_en.html
but as it’s a quarter to one (am) here in Australia and I should already be sound asleep…instead of fruitlessly googling trying to find some balanced and informed reviews. 🙂 I wish I’d been more successful for you. Hopefully someone else will be.

God bless you
 
This response isn’t precisely on-point to your question, but I have picked up (and put down) this book several times when it was in bookstores. My honest reaction to its contents was one of embarassment, particularly in a general-circulation book. While there may be certain specialized needs to know the history of Vatican medals, who gets to wear ermine, and the proper way to invite a cardinal to dinner, my idea of the “Church Visible” runs more to soup kitchens, aid workers in Haiti, and the unsung many who roll up their sleeves to keep parishes afloat, religious education programs running, and making the Church present in numerous other ways. Just sayin’.
 
Trishie said:
I’ve been trying for some time to find other reviews, specifically from a reliable ecclesiastical source…but so far have found none, though doubtless some exist.

Archbishop John P. Foley is editor of the book…I’ve included a link to his biography in hope you can assess something regarding his scholarship there, vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/oessh/oessh-biografia_foley_en.html
but as it’s a quarter to one (am) here in Australia and I should already be sound asleep…instead of fruitlessly googling trying to find some balanced and informed reviews. 🙂 I wish I’d been more successful for you. Hopefully someone else will be.

God bless you
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I am not looking for literary reviews. I am hoping that some of CAF’s members may have read the book and be willing to share their impressions of that book in this thread.

The Most Rev. John Foley is not the editor. That would suggest he had some responsibility for its content. James-Charles Noonan, Jr is the book’s sole author. The Archbishop wrote a kind of foreword and he is cited as a ‘special consultant’. As such I don’t think any scholarship he may have can reflect on this book.

Despite the accuracy of the content the book itself is poorly written especially as its author goes to great pains to insist it’s an extensively researched scholarly treatise.
 
Tarpeian_Rock said:
This response isn’t precisely on-point to your question …
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I would strongly agree. I do not dispute your key point but would say it is worthy of a different thread as opposed to taking one off at an irrelevant tangent.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I am not looking for literary reviews. I am hoping that some of CAF’s members may have read the book and be willing to share their impressions of that book in this thread.

The Most Rev. John Foley is not the editor. That would suggest he had some responsibility for its content. James-Charles Noonan, Jr is the book’s sole author. The Archbishop wrote a kind of foreword and he is cited as a ‘special consultant’. As such I don’t think any scholarship he may have can reflect on this book.

Despite the accuracy of the content the book itself is poorly written especially as its author goes to great pains to insist it’s an extensively researched scholarly treatise.
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Apologies Matthew. One website stated the archbishop is editor, and I foolishly failed to check this against other sources. Apologies also for overlooking the exact parameters of your question, although at least one review external to CAF proved a small confirmation of your impressions. 🙂

(Tarpeian Rock I agree with the point you make. Church Visible is the living, serving Church’)

Matthew, I have a close friend who has a PhD in Liturgical Studies, who lectures at a Catholic university and who possesses several bookcases of numerous aspects of liturgy, ceremonial, and Church with whom I expect next week to share coffee. I’ll enquire regarding the book.

God bless.
 
I wonder if he’s referring to the Church Militant?

Or maybe he’s a “modern writer” with modern terminology.

The title, to me at least is an immediate turn off.
 
Trishie said:
Apologies Matthew. One website stated the archbishop is editor, and I foolishly failed to check this against other sources. Apologies also for overlooking the exact parameters of your question, although at least one review external to CAF proved a small confirmation of your impressions. 🙂

(Tarpeian Rock I agree with the point you make. Church Visible is the living, serving Church’)

Matthew, I have a close friend who has a PhD in Liturgical Studies, who lectures at a Catholic university and who possesses several bookcases of numerous aspects of liturgy, ceremonial, and Church with whom I expect next week to share coffee. I’ll enquire regarding the book.

God bless.
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Trishie, thank you very much for the apology. It was not expected and it was not what I was trying for. I do, again, however, appreciate it. I suspect Mr. Noonan himself is trying to mislead with regards to the several prelates whose names appear in his book. I think any credit for and comments, good or bad, on the book should be laid at his doorstep and no one else’s.

If you manage to obtain your friend’s opinion on this book I’d love to hear it.

It is not clear on what and to whom perro sarnoso’s comments are aimed.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Has anyone read The Church Visible by Noonan?(1) What do you think about this book? I am not so interested in comments on the style of writing. I have clear opinions on that. I am more interested in comments on its accuracy.
  1. Noonan, James-Charles, Jr. (1996) The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life and Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church. New York, USA: Viking Penguin. (ISBN 0-760-86754-4)
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I happened to come across this post while looking for other information: I hope you will excuse the very late contribution to the thread.

I am not a fan of Noonan’s book. It has good pictures, and vrious useful titbits. As a reliable guide to at least church vesture and ecclesiastical precedence, it is not reliable. As a scholarly work it is just bad.

I do not have it in front of me, so I will have to look at it when I get home: but from memory, I think somewhere it is mentioned that he did research in Rome or the Papal archives or something. But the mistakes are often VERY elementary mistakes that someone familiar with a publication like Acta Apostolicae Sedis could spot. For example (again this is from memory), he seems completely unfamiliar with Pius XII’s Valde solliciti. In other areas, he guesses to fill in the blanks when he wishes to assert something: one thing I remember is that somewhere in his book, he says that the shape of the pectoral cross was fixed by papal decision, or something like that - which is completely inaccurate, since many ceremonial authors stress that the Latin cross shape is a tradition. Another example – his section on precedence at liturgical functions contravenes the liturgical books. The liturgical books always place concelebrants behind non-concelebrants, whereas Nainfa arranges them according to precedence. I could probably come up with some more once I take another look at the book.

This is a harsh review, but really much of his innacuracy could have been avoided by a careful reading of other ceremonial authors, and a little more painstaking research. Another litmus test I use – admittedly a rather strict one – is to see the comments on Papal vesture. He simply repeats the claim that Pius V instituted the white cassock, etc. as a Dominican. Again, it is harsh, but if a scholar has really done research in the Vatican library or archives or wherever, then the falsity of this statement should be immediately apparent with the mass of documentary evidence to the contrary.

So I would read it but take what it says with a good sized pinch of salt. It does have some very good sections - for example, his writing about a cardinal’s etiquette when receiving the biretta, etc. : dated but IIRC many particulars about the ceremony as it stood at the beginning of the 20th century.
 
Since I have the book in front of me, let me go through the first chapter of “Vesture and Insignia”

The 4th Laterna Council did not prescribe the use of green.
It was Innocent IV who granted the red hat, and not Gregory X. This was in 1245-46.
The Holy See has mandated colours before the 1700s except different colours.
Rose was not abolished in 1939 but fell out of use much earlier in the 30s. I am not sure who he was referring to when speaking of gray.
The mourning vesture for cardinals was not rose, but violet. Likewise the mourning of monsignori is incorrect, and furthermore, not all prelates donned mourning during the mourning periods.
The mozzettas of the Franciscans did not have amaranth piping.
The Pope’s shoes did not start to be “exlsuively red” from John XXIII. Furthermore, he seems to confuse the Papal mules with liturgical buskins.

These are mistakes in 1 and 1/2 pages of the section…and ones that could have been easily corrected.
 
AJV said:
Since I have the book in front of me, let me go through the first chapter of “Vesture and Insignia”

The 4th Laterna Council did not prescribe the use of green.
It was Innocent IV who granted the red hat, and not Gregory X. This was in 1245-46.
The Holy See has mandated colours before the 1700s except different colours.
Rose was not abolished in 1939 but fell out of use much earlier in the 30s. I am not sure who he was referring to when speaking of gray.
The mourning vesture for cardinals was not rose, but violet. Likewise the mourning of monsignori is incorrect, and furthermore, not all prelates donned mourning during the mourning periods.
The mozzettas of the Franciscans did not have amaranth piping.
The Pope’s shoes did not start to be “exlsuively red” from John XXIII. Furthermore, he seems to confuse the Papal mules with liturgical buskins.

These are mistakes in 1 and 1/2 pages of the section…and ones that could have been easily corrected.
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Thanks for the post, even though it’s late.😃

I have purchased the book. I agree that it is not very good. When you said as a scholarly publication it was bad: I believe you were being kind. It also surprises me to see the number of (alleged) endorsements the book as. I also knew it was bad from a litmus test I often apply to a book when I buy it. I look for facts that I know. If the book gets them wrong I won’t buy it because I can’t trust the rest of it to be accurate. That’s why I mostly purchase books from a book shop where I can examine them before buying. However, I was only able to get Noonan from an online retailer.
 
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