The Churches wealth

  • Thread starter Thread starter michaelmas
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

michaelmas

Guest
How do I explain to an atheist about the churches wealth?

I as well have questions. I never understood the need for huge gothic cathedrals when people were starving to death right outside the building of the cathedral.

How can I answer this question?

Thank you for the help

Mike
 
I’ve read because it’s God’s house; even in the Old Testament, God instructed His people to build very ornate things.

How many huge gothic cathedrals are being built today? You can probably blame royalty in the past for making people pay taxes to pay for massive churches. However, even in the past, jobs were provided to many people when cathedrals and churches went under construction. In today’s time, I don’t see very much construction of cathedrals, and new churches aren’t ginormous stone temples. A lot of churches renovate old ones.

Considering how much the Church (clergy and laity) do for the poor and hungry, atheists don’t have much room to talk. Have you seen a person die outside of a cathedral? That’s very troubling, and I think you need to speak to your parish priest and your mayor.

Also, I’d like to know about the Church’s abundant wealth as well, because I read it ran a deficit for a couple of years. Of course, it must be remembered that the Church has a lot of property because it needs the facilities.
 
“The poor you will always have with you”

The wealth of this world passes from dust to dust, and is immune from the glomming on of whatever else needs met in the interim.

The Church, is here for attendance to that interim.

“Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s”

What does your friend have to say regarding the insane amount of wealth accumulated through taxation. The amount of good done with the taking in not comparable to the works of the church, and the needle does not even lift-off of the peg, when it comes to the morality of the method of accumulation.
 
The Catholic Church safeguards and preserves countless priceless works of art and architecture, and has for many centuries, so that all of humanity can experience it. What a crime it would be to sell it off. Then it would be lost forever to the hands of private collectors.

This notion that the Church should sell off its possessions to “feed the poor” is preposterous. The Catholic Church is the most charitable organization in the world.
 
Nigel7 said:
The Catholic Church safeguards and preserves countless priceless works of art and architecture, and has for many centuries, so that all of humanity can experience it. What a crime it would be to sell it off. Then it would be lost forever to the hands of private collectors.

This notion that the Church should sell off its possessions to “feed the poor” is preposterous. The Catholic Church is the most charitable organization in the world.
Click to expand...
This
👍

Every piece of art (with the possible exception of a few) were created by either devoted artists working to exalt God through their medium, or by commissioned artists, working to create masterpieces that would give the laypeople a way of understanding the magnificence of God’s work. Remember, at the point in history when a lot of these masterpieces were created, most people were illiterate. These artworks were one of the only way for people to experience the Bible stories. Telling the Catholic Church to sell off this artwork is like demanding that the Cairo Museum sell of the priceless relics of its ancient heritage… it’s a stupid demand, really.
 
To add to the great responses preceding mine, I would also say that the Body of Christ (you and I) voluntarily contribute the money used to construct and beautify our churches as a means of worshipping God. It is by choice that you and I contribute to create the most respectable and beautiful churches we are able to build to worship God because he deserves such worship (and so much more). Our contributions are not compulsary, they are voluntary. And we do so out of love for God and out of thanksgiving for the blessings He has bestowed upon us.
 
michaelmas said:
How do I explain to an atheist about the churches wealth?

I as well have questions. I never understood the need for huge gothic cathedrals when people were starving to death right outside the building of the cathedral.

How can I answer this question?

Thank you for the help

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\== Mike/quote

Well, for starters, people weren’t ‘starving to death right outside the building’. And while people have always been starving to death (even here in America, as we speak), they weren’t starving BECAUSE ‘huge cathedrals were built INSTEAD of feeding them’.

They were starving for many reasons --and when or if they went to the Church for help, they were helped. The Church in AD 1200 couldn’t help people who they didn’t KNOW needed help, and of course, if there was starvation endemic, they could only give what they had, and if there was not enough, it was often the PRIEST who wound up starving to death in order to save some of his people.

IT was NEVER a ‘build a cathedral’ OR "feed the poor’ situation.

It was always a both-and "Feed the poor AND give to the Lord the best you WISH to offer’. At the time of the Golden age of Cathedrals, Europe was totally Christian and the majority of people wanted to give God their finest offerings, because they themselves ‘had’, and they wished to honor God with the finest of what they had.

If all they had had was stone knives and bearskins, that’s what they would have given --but they would have made the most intricate designs on the knives, and used the finest skins, to offer to God.

So in building a church, they offered the finest materials of the time, and used their craftsmanship to its greatest degree.

What is wrong with that, I ask?
Click to expand...
 
The better question is not why Catholics use some of their money for beautiful places where everyone can worship, instead of using it all to feed the poor and for hospitals and schools that welcome those with no ability to pay, but why the atheists don’t do either one? After all, if the Gothic cathedrals had only needed to accommodate the rich, they could have been made a fraction of their size. Meanwhile…how much have those with no religion really done for the less fortunate, over the years? Have atheistic movements such as communism had leaders who are less selfless and who share the lot of the poor more closely than our priests and religious have done over the centuries, and continue to do? Have they given so selflessly so as to put themselves in a position to criticize others?

Cathedrals are huge because people of all walks of life came to them for the great feast days. The cathedrals have been, across history, one of the few places that someone with nothing could come to refresh their soul with a place to worship and reflect that is both beautiful and edifying. If he were to tour one, he would note that there are no pews set aside for the rich. Anyone can sit wherever he wants, and everyone can look on the beautiful vestments and artwork and so on.

As for the Vatican, it does not have a lot of “wealth” that it could simply dispose of as it saw fit, even less so than the Smithsonian does.
 
Matthew 26:6-13
Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, “Why this waste?
It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor.”
Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, “Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her.”
  1. The Catholic Church always has been, and remains, the largest charitable organization on the planet, by a wide amount. Much of the Vatican’s wealth has been donated to it by the great artists of the world for the glorification of God. Even that art which has been commissioned by the Vatican was still done for the glorification of God, because as Christians, we realize that the things of this Earth are fleeting. We give our best to God, but in the end, money doesn’t really mean anything. It’s our relationship with God. Jesus is saying in the passage from Matthew above that one can honor God with fine things AND help the poor at the same time.
  2. The people actually living at the Vatican are not living a magnificent lifestyle. In fact, the pope’s apartment is quite modest. It consists of just ten rooms. The layout includes a vestibule, the library, a small studio for the papal secretary, and the pope’s private studio, from which he blesses the crowd every Sunday. The other rooms include the pope’s bedroom, the medical studio (which has surgical equipment, in case he’s attacked, just like Air Force One has), his private chapel, a small living room, a dining room and kitchen. Further, the pope does not actually own any of this. It’s no different than asking the question of whether the President of the United States lives in too much opulence because he gets to use the White House, Air Force One, Marine One, Camp David, and so on. All of these things serve a purpose, and NONE belong to him. They belong to the people, which let him use it.
  3. The Vatican also serves as a museum for many of the world’s great treasures. As such, it protects them in museums. In reality, these objects have no objective value, because they cannot be sold. For example, let’s say the Vatican was to give up all of it’s wealth. How, precisely, would you sell off the Sistine Chapel? Is there really anything else you can do with it? You can’t give it to a private collector, or build a Starbucks, or something. That said, let’s do an experiment. Let’s say that the art that it WOULD be possible to sell at the Vatican is worth, say, a trillion dollars. That would indeed be a large sum of money. Now, let’s sell it all and donate the money to the poorest one-third of the world. The Catholic Church would then be able to give those two billion people exactly… $500. That’s it! Now, while the average income of those 2 billion impoverished people is around $300 per year, and while this would help them for a very short time, in about a half a decade, they would all likely go right back to being poor, and the world would have lost access to many of the world’s greatest treasures, as they’d be in private hands. Is the United States of America fabulously wealthy because it has the treasures of the Smithsonian Institution? I mean, wouldn’t it be better if they sold off all of those artifacts and donated the money to the poor? Of course not.
continued…
 
  1. The Vatican, like many great churches, dates to the late Middle Ages / early Renaissance. A cathedral was actually one of the best investments a medieval town could make. Despite their great expense, a large cathedral could take hundreds of years to complete. It could become an industry unto itself. Large cathedrals employed thousands, and generated huge amounts of highly skilled jobs… jobs that were sorely lacking in the period. When the cathedral was complete, they would still need to be maintained, so many workmen would still remain. The pilgrims that would come to visit the cathedral needed to be fed, clothed, and housed, and this provided a virtual tourism industry, bringing in much needed revenue to both the church and the community. Churches were also the only medieval centers of learning, and every major university in Europe split off from a cathedral. If you had a cathedral school in your town, opportunities for trade would skyrocket, since learning about math, geography, cartography, astronomy, business, and law was all required by merchants. Further, most towns only even needed to have one large church, since there were no denominations. Everyone was Catholic, so all the effort could go into one splendid building rather than many smaller ones. Almost all medieval cities with a cathedral were FAR better off than their counterparts without them. This is why the cathedral is often called the greatest innovation of the Middle Ages.
  2. There is an old legend (which is probably true) that in the late 10th century Grand Prince Vladimir, seeking a national religion to help unify his lands and peoples, sent out envoys to inspect the various faiths of the surrounding nations. Accordingly, they attended the Muslim rites of the Bulgars, the Catholic mass of the Germans, and the Orthodox liturgy of the Greeks. When they returned and were questioned by their Prince as to which of the religions they thought the best, they answered boldly that whereas they found neither joy nor glory in the ceremonies of the Bulgars and the Germans, when they entered the sanctuary of the Greeks, they did not know whether they were in heaven or on earth. “For on earth,” they explained, “there is no such splendor or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We only know that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty” (the Primary Chronicle). Vladimir accepted their testimony, and the Russian Orthodox Church (which in 1988 celebrated its Millennium) was born.
That idea of splendor, awe, and the sacred (more successfully accomplished by the Orthodox in the story above since Germany was a backwater at the time) is what is trying to be captured at the Vatican. If you come away with “it’s almost as if God is dwelling among men” at the Vatican, then you got the point.

By the way, have you ever noticed how the Orthodox Church NEVER receives this same question, and yet has churches equal in opulence to the Catholic Church (and in many cases, more opulent)?
 
  1. You also have to realize that much of the church’s money in real estate is in church buildings located in prime locations. How much do you think the land is worth that Vatican City happens to stand on? It’s in the middle of one of the most expensive cities in the world. What about Notre Dame cathedral, etc…? This is where much of that “wealth” comes from, but realistically, it’s unsellable because of the landmarks on top of it.
Another interesting point, on a practical level. Let’s say that the Vatican DID try and sell all of its art. If it sold it all at once, it would flood the market and the art would only be worth pennies on the dollar, since there would be few institutions or people wealthy enough to purchase it all. The money wouldn’t make as much of a difference as you would think. If they sold it off just a few pieces at a time, it would still not generate enough revenue to make much of a difference. The revenue brought in from the Vatican museums and traveling exhibitions probably brings in more money for charity than selling it, to be honest.
 
oh goodness what a wealth of information. I am going to try and put all your comments into a nice tidy response and think on them.

These questions came up on google+ where NBC reported that the Pope was resigning. A lot of people comments that religion is bad, the catholic church is this or that, and then one atheist ask that question. I want to defend my faith and I appreciate the comments you shared.
 
Victor2211 said:
To add to the great responses preceding mine, I would also say that the Body of Christ (you and I) voluntarily contribute the money used to construct and beautify our churches as a means of worshipping God. It is by choice that you and I contribute to create the most respectable and beautiful churches we are able to build to worship God because he deserves such worship (and so much more). Our contributions are not compulsary, they are voluntary. And we do so out of love for God and out of thanksgiving for the blessings He has bestowed upon us.
Click to expand...
This was the thinking of people in ages past as well. Some of the very poorest considered themselvesfortunate to be able to work on something that would be a lasting memorial to their faith.
 
Rolltide said:
  1. You also have to realize that much of the church’s money in real estate is in church buildings located in prime locations. How much do you think the land is worth that Vatican City happens to stand on? It’s in the middle of one of the most expensive cities in the world. What about Notre Dame cathedral, etc…? This is where much of that “wealth” comes from, but realistically, it’s unsellable because of the landmarks on top of it.
Another interesting point, on a practical level. Let’s say that the Vatican DID try and sell all of its art. If it sold it all at once, it would flood the market and the art would only be worth pennies on the dollar, since there would be few institutions or people wealthy enough to purchase it all. The money wouldn’t make as much of a difference as you would think. If they sold it off just a few pieces at a time, it would still not generate enough revenue to make much of a difference. The revenue brought in from the Vatican museums and traveling exhibitions probably brings in more money for charity than selling it, to be honest.
Click to expand...
There is an interesting play “Hadrian VII” which is based on the premise that a Pope wanted to divest the Church of its wealth in order to serve the poor.
 
michaelmas said:
How do I explain to an atheist about the churches wealth?

I as well have questions. I never understood the need for huge gothic cathedrals when people were starving to death right outside the building of the cathedral.

How can I answer this question?

Thank you for the help

Mike
Click to expand...
Ask your friend this question: If you had a million dollars, or a billion dollars…which is the smarter thing to do:

a). Give this all to the poor, and it would be gone in a few days and they are back to being poor again

or

b). Invest this million or billion dollars so that you can fund hospitals, orphanages, homeless feeding and schools to teach the poor to have skills to earn a living?
 
michaelmas said:
How do I explain to an atheist about the churches wealth?

I as well have questions. I never understood the need for huge gothic cathedrals when people were starving to death right outside the building of the cathedral.

How can I answer this question?

Thank you for the help

Mike
Click to expand...
English is not my first language so I apologize for any misspelling.
Atheists always trying to make religion look bad and evil,because mostly there is no logic in their debate, I used to be atheist, atheists organizations also ask for money for support, I never saw one atheist place or heard of one that open it’s doors for poor and hungry people. Also, why they are just focusing on Catholic church, why don’t they care about the Buddha status that made of gold?! or that is just different?!?!
I went from Islam to atheism and then I found the lord Jesus christ, and I became Christian. I don’t know if there is place here where I can write my story how I become atheist and then that lead me to become Christian.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top