The Church's history parallels Christ's life

[Lief_Erikson]

I think that this thread is both an Apologetics and a Sacred Scripture issue, so I’m posting it in both threads.

Today I was at Eucharist, and as the priest prayed over the Sacred Host, I suddenly had a profound realization. The Church’s role in history parallels the life of Jesus Christ.

1a) Jesus was persecuted in his infancy. Herod tried to kill him and his parents had to flee with him to Egypt, a land of idolaters.

1b) Similarly, the Early Christians had to flee from town to town to escape persecution. They were severely persecuted under the Roman Emperors.

2a) Then Jesus grew up and began his ministry. Great crowds flocked to him. Though he was attacked, his enemies could not come near him and could never defeat him.

2b) After its early tribulation, the Church thrived and became dominant throughout the Western world. Christianity filled the West, and through the Orthodox churches filled the East, too. It consumed all the known world. The Church was attacked repeatedly by heresies from within and violent aggressors from without, but these foes could never come near defeating them for a thousand years, until the Reformation. Just as Christ’s foes could not defeat or come near him, in spite of slander, spiritual and physical attacks, and his ministry thrived, even so this was true for the Church.

3a) Judas sold Jesus out for money and betrayed him with a kiss.

3b) Many kings, during the Reformation, betrayed the Church in order to seize Church property. The Protestants put the Word of God, the Bible, above any other authority in their rebellion. They hailed it with a place of honor, yet through their actions they shattered Christendom, the Body of Christ. In the same way, Judas betrayed the Word of God, Jesus Christ, through a kiss. And through his betrayal, Jesus’ body was butchered. The Reformation also was initiated first often through the actions of renegade priests. Similarly, Jesus was betrayed by a disciple.

4a) All Jesus’ disciples abandoned him.

4b) The Western world used to all be Catholic, but now our time is rightfully called the “post-Christian era.” Many members of the Church have abandoned it, and those that have stayed are often falling prey to corrupting outside influences.

5a) Jesus was tried and condemned unjustly. He was condemned for blasphemy, because the people wanted a different kind of Messiah, one who would lead them in a rebellion against Rome, and also because he was accused of trying to rebel against Caesar.

5b) Since the Reformation, it is easy to see how society has been putting the Church on trial. I can’t record all the times I’ve heard people condemn the Church, for a variety of reasons. Some of those reasons parallel the reasons Jesus was condemned.

• For instance, the Church is accused of being extremely violent when in power. Religion itself is sometimes accused, now, of being the source of all the world’s violence. Similarly, Jesus was accused of planning to lead a rebellion against Rome. In reality, the Pharisees feared for their own power, just as so many people today hate the idea of submitting to authority or giving up any “rights.”
• The Church is condemned because the people want a different kind of salvation, one that they can achieve through rebellion. We can see this in the countless rebellious movements of our time. Whereas in the Medieval Ages, children submitted to parents, women submitted to men, peasants to nobles, nobles to kings, priests to bishops, bishops to the pope, a vast hierarchical system that spread throughout society, today’s society encourages rebellion on every social level and condemns the Church for its historical and present day opposition to these movements. Similarly, Jesus was condemned because the people wanted a king who would lead them in rebellion against Rome.
• The Church is condemned for spreading lies and twisting the intended practice of Jesus. This is especially viewed as having occurred from the time of Constantine on, when the Church gained political influence and is supposed to have put the intention of Christ, the disciples and the Early Church second to their greed for power. They are supposed to have twisted and invented doctrines, just as Jesus was condemned for having trespassed the Law and the forefathers of Israel, essentially twisting and inventing doctrines.
• Jesus was condemned for behaving as though he was God’s equal. People condemn the Church for claiming too much authority and taking God’s place. This is akin to the charge of blasphemy that was leveled against Jesus. I’ve heard especially from Protestants that the Catholic Church places men in God’s place, but it is a view that circulates commonly in secular culture too.

6a) Jesus was flogged.

6b) Many of the saints in the Church have seen visions of a Minor Chastisement, which is forthcoming.

7a) Jesus was given a moment of temporary relief, when Simon of Cyrene was told to carry his cross.

7b) Catholic mystics predict a brief “Age of Peace,” following the Minor Chastisement.

8a) Christ was crucified.

8b) The Church, it is predicted and believed by both the Catholic and most Protestant churches, will be taken into the worst Tribulation of its history.

9a) Christ was resurrected.

9b) Fallen believers will be resurrected, and all will be transformed.

10a) God destroyed Jerusalem because it killed Christ, after it was given a little more time of witnessing.

10b) Nonbelievers will be cast into hell at the Final Judgment.

That’s all I’ve got, for the moment. The most impressive parallels to me are those involving the downfall of the Medieval Ages. The way Judas kissed Jesus (the Word) to betray him so strongly resembles, to me, how the Protestants introduced Sola Scriptura, praising the Word of God with one hand while with the other destroying Christendom.

That parallel stands out to be mainly because of my Protestant background, though, I think. The others are very impressive to me too. I’d never noticed this predictive pattern in the Gospels before.

It’s neat to me too that this revelation about the Body of Christ, the Church, came to me at the same moment the priest prayed over the Eucharist, turning the elements into Christ’s body. Simultaneously, the Lord turned the “mere history” of his Body for me into spiritual reality. It was wonderful!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Oh yes, I thought I’d mention one more parallel I just thought of.

After Judas betrayed Jesus for the thirty pieces of silver, he threw the coins back at the Pharisees and then went and hanged himself.

Similarly, very shortly after they turned on the Church, monarchies were replaced by democracies, and Protestants lost power over kingdoms, secularism taking over. The kings lost the Church property they’d stolen, and they lost their thrones and in many cases their lives. It was the Protestants’ own beliefs and internal divisions that created the groundwork for the secularism that destroyed their power.

Similarly, Judas wasn’t killed by other people- he hanged himself.

 

[NotWorthy]

Two points on this.

Today I was thinking of something rather coincidental. The Mass mirrors the Gospels - mainly Mark’s in my reasoning. But I don’t want to derail the thread. I just wanted to comment on our like-mindedness in finding these parallels…

Second point, I’d hesitate to say the Reformation was a betrayal of the Church. I think Luther had the best of intentions in trying to reform the Church from within. Luther was then swept up by people with purposes of their own and they used Luther to further their means. Among these people were German wealthy who wanted a stake in the vast lands that the Church owned. They used Luther as a puppet. You can see in Luther’s writings that he didn’t want a schism, but:
a) his ego
b) the Church’s ego
c) secular forces with their own agendas
all had a hand in the schism. Judas on the other hand, simply down and out betrayed Jesus.

 

[Nita]

I also have considered the Church as parallelling Our Lord’s life. However, I see the Reformation as being similar to the incident in John 6 where many left Jesus because they found His words too hard to accept.

I consider that the Judas’ betrayal and Our Lord’s crucifixion have not yet occurred for the Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

I also have considered the Church as parallelling Our Lord’s life. However, I see the Reformation as being similar to the incident in John 6 where many left Jesus because they found His words too hard to accept.

I consider that the Judas’ betrayal and Our Lord’s crucifixion have not yet occurred for the Church.

Here’s the hammer. And here’s the head of the nail.

BAM!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I also have considered the Church as parallelling Our Lord’s life. However, I see the Reformation as being similar to the incident in John 6 where many left Jesus because they found His words too hard to accept.

I consider that the Judas’ betrayal and Our Lord’s crucifixion have not yet occurred for the Church.

Well, as far as the Crucifixion goes, I agree. That’s got to be the final Tribulation of the Church.

However, I see a whole lot of parallels between Judas and the Reformation. Judas betraying Jesus for money, for instance, parallels how, during the Reformation, many kings betrayed the Church largely in order to confiscate Church property. The way Judas kissed Jesus, the Word, in order to betray him and give him up to those who would rip apart his body also parallels the way the Reformers praised the Word of God, the Bible, so strongly, and placed it in such high esteem, yet they ripped apart Christendom. Also, the way Judas hanged himself strongly resembles the way the Reformers’ fragmentation created the groundwork for the secularism that destroyed their rule in Protestant countries, and the monarchies that betrayed and destroyed Christendom were swiftly replaced (often violently) by democracies.

Judas’ motives, methods and demise are all paralleled there, and Jesus’ trial that followed is pretty clearly paralleled in our own day, which follows the betrayal.

So I think there are a lot of parallels there. I know that many of the Protestants broke, over time, with the Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist, so that would parallel the “Bread of Life” incident you’re talking about. However, that was only one of many ways in which they broke from Catholic tradition, and they didn’t just leave the Catholic Church- they shattered Christendom violently, and their fragmentation led to the “post-Christian culture” of today. I personally feel that that’s more than simply a large number of people leaving.

Anyway, that’s my view. We can, obviously, agree to disagree on it, though!

NotWorthy:

Two points on this.

Today I was thinking of something rather coincidental. The Mass mirrors the Gospels - mainly Mark’s in my reasoning. But I don’t want to derail the thread. I just wanted to comment on our like-mindedness in finding these parallels…

Interesting.

NotWorthy:

Second point, I’d hesitate to say the Reformation was a betrayal of the Church. I think Luther had the best of intentions in trying to reform the Church from within. Luther was then swept up by people with purposes of their own and they used Luther to further their means. Among these people were German wealthy who wanted a stake in the vast lands that the Church owned. They used Luther as a puppet. You can see in Luther’s writings that he didn’t want a schism, but:
a) his ego
b) the Church’s ego
c) secular forces with their own agendas
all had a hand in the schism. Judas on the other hand, simply down and out betrayed Jesus.

I agree with you about Luther having had a sincere desire to reform the Church, initially. Later on, he abandoned that desire and called on people to kill Papists. He then called Catholics, the Pope, and all other Christian denominations hell-spawn. Originally, I think his desire to reform the Church was sincere, but he gave up and then turned on it.

Sincere motives and good intentions don’t mean that what Luther did wasn’t a betrayal. But I’m not just comparing him to Judas- I’m comparing the whole Reformation to Judas. The whole movement kissed Jesus through Sola Scriptura, yet betrayed the Body of Christ. Even if a person betrays someone while having good intentions, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a betrayal. Many pro-abortion activists also, from their point of view, have good intentions. Judas did “down and out betray Jesus,” but so did the Reformation “down and out betray the Church.” It had reasons for doing so. Bad reasons. So did Judas.

I can certainly understand many of the Reformers’ complaints, and a number of them were actually valid. However, that didn’t legitimize the destructive rebellion they launched. Their methods for righting the wrong were far, far worse than was the wrong they wanted to right.

 

[moosears]

I, too have considered the parallel between the Life of Christ and the life of the Church. The future has much in store for Her as well. I believe this is a fascinating subject. After reading extensively some private revelations of the saints, blesseds and popes, I believe that the Church will be betrayed by communists who have secretly entered the priesthood and are working their way to the upper positions of the hierarchy. The Pope will leave Rome due to threatening circumstances and be slain in exile with two of his faithful bishops. The faithful, especially priests and religious will be martyred as well by the communists and the jihads who will be allied. Thus the Church will be betrayed by her own. Communism being the Judas. I don’t believe that communism in Russia ever really died, I think it was a strategy used to disarm the U.S.
But, it doesn’t end there. When it looks like all is lost and the Church will be no more, then cosmic, cataclysmic events will end the worldwide fighting and bloodshed and be grounds for a new Catholic monarch to rise up victorious and assist in establishing a new Pope. Hence the resurrection of the Church and a period of peace (roughly 30 yrs) before the Antichrist rises to power to challenge the Church for the last time. We all know how that ends.
I am just speculating based on what I have read from many of the saints and holy popes as well as apparitions.Some of these “Catholic prophecies”, so to speak, date back to the earliest days of the Church. Great care must be taken when reading them not to allow these readings to take precedence over Divine Revelation. Nevertheless, the whole world has much suffering to endure for all the injustice and error spread since the so-called reformation in order to repair for these sins and the Church must be purified. This is my understanding. It is both frightening and consoling. But the bottom line is that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and imitates Her Divine Spouse in every way because of the great love she has for Him.
I like reading apocalyptic private revelations when I feel dry and have difficulty praying because it reminds me of the dire necessity of doing so. So much evil can be averted and so much good accomplished if we will only pray as we should.

 

[Benadam]

Jesus shares His life with us. The pattern you are noticing also includes Adam, and Eve= Christ and Church. The unfathonable depth of how real that is huh? The pattern of human life called history, inheritence of every human.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I just noticed another parallel. Just as at the Reformation, Catholics were brutalized and wars swept Christendom, and then after the Church was punished with physical punishments by religious reformists, it was condemned by Enlightenment, Modernist and Post-Modernist thinkers, in the same way Christ was judged first by the religious (who beat him up and mocked him) and then he was handed over to be judged by secular authorities.

First the Pharisees condemned him (and had him physically attacked), then they handed him over to Pilate and then to Herod, just as the reformists first condemned and physically attacked the Church, and then handed it over to the Enlightenment or Relativist thinkers to be condemned.

 

[spauline]

What is the basis of concluding the age of peace is so short?

Desmond Birch says it could even be a 1000 years. What sense does it make that Christians have been divided for 1000 years, but that when they reunite, it will only bring peace for a mere generation, some 30 years? That is ludicrous.

When Our Lady appeared in the Ukraine, witnessed by Josef Terelya, she spoke of a thousand year kingdom of God.
Nostradamus speaks of a thousand years. The Millennium is said to be a thousand years. Not that we take it literal, but it doesn’t make sense if the age of peace is just a petty thirty years.

How can there be peace when you are carrying the cross in horrible torment?

I would say Christ’s life is a type, but a multi-dimensional type. I would say the aspects of Christ’s life that prefigure the Church are not His whole life but the THREE’s of the Gospels.

I would say the proper fulfillment that the Church will make is the way of the Jews themselves, and the path of the saint, which has three stages, three great darknesses, each succeeded by light.

The saint passes through three big stages: the purgative, illuminative, and unitive. So did the Jews.

The Jews went into oppression under Egypt, the Church under pagan Rome.

The Jews were delivered in the Exodus into a kingdom.

The Church was delivered from persecution into Catholic Christendom.

The Jews progressively fell away from the Law toward the exile, and then were chastised by Babylon.

The Gentiles have progressively fallen away from Catholicism beginning with Protestantism.

The exile caused the Jews to repent, and eventually they were restored to their homeland and walked with God much closer until Antiochus. Hence, they had about at least two centuries of peace and unitive phase. Only after that did they pass through martyrdom under the OT Antichrist Antiochus. After that, Christ came the first time.

The modern world awaits the Minor Chastisement, but afterwards, Christians will be reunited and the Gospel restored to humanity.

Why must that be only thirty years? As far as I’m concerned, it’ll be at least several centuries, like the Jews, if not almost a literal 1000 years.

And then shall come the great apostasy and Antichrist, after that the Second Coming.

Jesus fell three times. In the third time, He could no longer get up.

The Gentiles fall three times: pagan Rome, the modern Minor Apostasy, and the Great apostasy. The Gentiles will not be able to be restored in the Great apostasy (that is why the world ends then.)

Jesus prayed three times to be delivered from the Cup in the garden of Gethsemane. Only in the third time was He fully prepared to follow the will of God. Only in the unitive phase is the saint fully prepared to do the will of God, that is, in the third phase. After the age of peace, the Church will be ready to follow her savior into the ultimate martyrdom.

Three times Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene at the Resurrection, and only in the third does She recognize Him. The Jews will not recognize Christ in full until the times of Antichrist, the third darkness for the Gentiles.

For three days and three nights, Mary and Joseph looked for Jesus, and only in the third did they find Him. For three great ages of the Church, the Jews look for the Messiah, and only in the final stage, the third, do they find Him. And Jesus will say, “Didn’t you know I must be about My Father’s business? [Redeeming the Gentiles for the three ages you looked for me.]”

I am just respectfully disagreeing with the general analogy, unless you want to say that when Jesus was in the abode of the dead resting, the Church shall rest in the age of peace.

 

[moosears]

Thank you spauline for posting. I just posted some thoughts that came to me while perusing through some private revelations. I don’t have a good reason for saying thirty years other than I borrowed the opinion from someone else. It seems that you have done quite a bit of study and reflection on this subject. Far more than I have and I find your ideas to be of great interest. I have been intending to delve back into the Holy Scriptures now for quite sometime now and when I read a post like this it inspires me to make the time to get started. Thanks again and God Bless you.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Desmond Birch says it could even be a 1000 years.

He’s entitled to his opinion. I think it will be shorter, though, and I’ll explain why below.

What sense does it make that Christians have been divided for 1000 years, but that when they reunite, it will only bring peace for a mere generation, some 30 years? That is ludicrous.

I haven’t said it’ll be thirty years either. Or were you talking to someone else? 1000 years seems way off to me, seeing as we’ve already had 1000 years of Christendom dominating all the known world. There’s no scriptural basis for two 1000 year periods of Christian dominance on the world scene. I’d appreciate another one, of course, but from a prophetic standpoint, it doesn’t seem at all Biblical that such a thing will happen twice.

The time of Christendom in the Medieval Ages was actually extraordinarily peaceful, as times go. Genocide was not practiced by Christians throughout that thousand year era, in which a very united Christianity covered the known world. There are no recorded major rebellions in the Early and Middle Medieval Ages. The Christian nations also did not engage in imperialism, conquering their neighbors. That practiced only emerged with the modern era.

When Our Lady appeared in the Ukraine, witnessed by Josef Terelya, she spoke of a thousand year kingdom of God.

Is that apparition approved?

Though even if it was are, no one is required to believe it except the one it appeared to. I think the thousand years has already happened, myself. The thousand years of the Medieval Ages was very peaceful compared to the era prior to it and the era following, it was a time period where Christianity filled every aspect of life, political, social, economic and religious. It was an amazing phenomenon that filled the entire known world, all the West and much of the East. The Orthodox also were very close in faith to the Catholics, deviating on only two doctrinal issues, Papal authority and the Filoquial Clause. There was no massive fragmentation during that thousand years, though the Great Schism was an extremely tragic split. The massive fragmentation ended the thousand years with the Protestant Reformation.

Nostradamus speaks of a thousand years.

He based his predictions in large part on astrology and horoscope techniques. He used magic. He is not someone you want to rely on.

The Millennium is said to be a thousand years.

Yes . . . and a thousand years of Christianity has dominated all over the known world, an area the Book of Daniel refers to as “the whole Earth,” as does 1 Maccabbees. Christ has reigned in hearts, and forms of ancient violence were removed. There were still wars, but much of the ancient violence, and many of its forms, were rescinded because the Catholic Church had so much influence and Christ blessed the nations.

The Book of Daniel, chapter 7, actually predicts when the nations would be handed over to the saints, and it says it would happen after the fall of the Fourth Beast, the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire fell and Christians took the world for a thousand years.

It seems highly improbable to me that there will be two Christian millenniums. I don’t know of any scripture or prophecy predicting that.

Not that we take it literal, but it doesn’t make sense if the age of peace is just a petty thirty years.

How can there be peace when you are carrying the cross in horrible torment?

It was given to Simon of Cyrene to carry. Jesus was still suffering, and perhaps the Church also will be during this stage in history, but its terrible load will be temporarily removed.

I would say Christ’s life is a type, but a multi-dimensional type. I would say the aspects of Christ’s life that prefigure the Church are not His whole life but the THREE’s of the Gospels.

It could be that there are specific types in the threes, but that doesn’t have to negate His whole life being a type as well.

I would say the proper fulfillment that the Church will make is the way of the Jews themselves, and the path of the saint, which has three stages, three great darknesses, each succeeded by light.

The saint passes through three big stages: the purgative, illuminative, and unitive. So did the Jews.

The Jews went into oppression under Egypt, the Church under pagan Rome.

The Jews were delivered in the Exodus into a kingdom.

The Church was delivered from persecution into Catholic Christendom.

The Jews progressively fell away from the Law toward the exile, and then were chastised by Babylon.

The Gentiles have progressively fallen away from Catholicism beginning with Protestantism.

The exile caused the Jews to repent, and eventually they were restored to their homeland and walked with God much closer until Antiochus. Hence, they had about at least two centuries of peace and unitive phase. Only after that did they pass through martyrdom under the OT Antichrist Antiochus. After that, Christ came the first time.

The modern world awaits the Minor Chastisement, but afterwards, Christians will be reunited and the Gospel restored to humanity.

Why must that be only thirty years? As far as I’m concerned, it’ll be at least several centuries, like the Jews, if not almost a literal 1000 years.

I don’t say it has to be only thirty years. I don’t know how long it’ll be. I don’t see it being a thousand years, though. I see it as more of a temporary relief in the big picture of suffering. Revelation 20 predicts a thousand years of Millennium, and then Satan deceives the nations. There is no doubt that after the thousand years of the Medieval Ages, Satan has done an enormous amount of damage, deceiving the nations. Revelation 20 doesn’t even mention an Age of Peace following the Millennium. To me, that seems to be because it’s talking about the major themes of the time periods. First is Christ’s era, and Christianity was a rising star from its origins up to the Reformation, when the sweeping movement of modern history turned against Christianity. Then, historically the nations were deceived through the Reformation and Enlightenment, as the scripture says Satan will deceive the nations and rally them for battle against the Church. That has been the theme of the modern era, since the thousand years of Christian dominance.

I think Revelation 20 is giving the overall themes. It’s painting in broad strokes, rather than giving details. An Age of Peace could well be in there, following the thousand years of Catholic rule that have already passed, breaking the tribulations of the later era, just as Christ had temporary relief when Simon of Cyrene picked up his cross and carried it for Him. However, just as this was a punctuating relief in a broader picture of sorrow, for Christ, even so the Age of Peace after the Minor Chastisement (Jesus’ flogging) will be a punctuating relief in the larger picture of the deception of the nations. It will bring Christian unity, however.

It’s important that we keep in mind how the Old Testament kingdom of Israel with its prophets, while the Illuminative phase, was much longer than Israel’s Unitive phase, historically. Judah existed as a nation a lot longer before the exile than it did after it was reunited. The usually accepted date among scholars for the end of the Invasion of Canaan is 1190 BC. Some scholars go with an earlier date, 1350 BC. The Kingdom of Judah went into exile around 586 BC, so Israel’s Illuminative Phase was 600 or 750 years long, depending on which date you pick.

Their Unitive Phase, you are correct, was about 200 years long. The reunion and peace was a temporary feature for them, for around 331 BC, after Alexander the Great took over, they became tossed about as prey of the various international superpowers of the time, persecuted or oppressed at various times, until the Maccabbean era and the Great Tribulation. This means Israel had an Illuminative Phase that was at least three times longer than its Unitive Phase.

It seems most reasonable to believe that the Church will follow the same pattern. The Illuminative phase will be much longer than the Unitive phase, as it was with Israel (though I expect it’ll definitely be longer than 30 years).

The Church’s Illuminative phase already was a thousand years. Which is fascinating to consider, when one remembers that the number 1000 is symbolic itself of eternity.

The Church’s Unitive phase can’t be that long if it follows the type of Israel’s Unitive phase, which was at least three times shorter than its Illuminative phase. How long it will be, we do not know. The viewpoint that there will be both a thousand year Illuminative Phase and a thousand year Unitive Phase for the Church, though, doesn’t follow the pattern and is not predicted in any of the Bible’s millennial prophecies. It seems much more reasonable to think the Unitive Phase will be substantially shorter, as Israel’s was.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Jesus fell three times. In the third time, He could no longer get up.

The Gentiles fall three times: pagan Rome, the modern Minor Apostasy, and the Great apostasy. The Gentiles will not be able to be restored in the Great apostasy (that is why the world ends then.)

You’ve lost me here . . . are you saying Jesus’ fall represents the fall of the Gentiles? Surely the life of Christ is a type of the life of the Church, not the life of the heathen unbelievers.

Jesus prayed three times to be delivered from the Cup in the garden of Gethsemane. Only in the third time was He fully prepared to follow the will of God. Only in the unitive phase is the saint fully prepared to do the will of God, that is, in the third phase. After the age of peace, the Church will be ready to follow her savior into the ultimate martyrdom.

Three times Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene at the Resurrection, and only in the third does She recognize Him. The Jews will not recognize Christ in full until the times of Antichrist, the third darkness for the Gentiles.

For three days and three nights, Mary and Joseph looked for Jesus, and only in the third did they find Him. For three great ages of the Church, the Jews look for the Messiah, and only in the final stage, the third, do they find Him. And Jesus will say, “Didn’t you know I must be about My Father’s business? [Redeeming the Gentiles for the three ages you looked for me.]”

I like that last especially . Interesting parallels . . .

I don’t at all object to the idea of the Church’s history paralleling the major life events of a saint, and of Israel. I actually love that idea. I think you’re right that history works that way. I think the Millennium has already happened, though, and Revelation 20 is plastered all over our history books. Which fits into the Illuminative Phase, which is to be followed by the Minor Chastisement (Jesus’ flogging), then the Age of Peace (temporary relief for the Church, just as Judah experienced temporary relief from its sufferings and Christ was relieved of his cross), and then the Great Tribulation (the crucifixion, the Maccabbean era).

 

[spauline]

Dear Lief,

I’m sorry to come out swinging, and for the confusion.

I’m saying, in my level of meaning, that the MIllennium has not even occurred yet at all.

Here’s how I look at it: The collective scenes of the dragon in Revelation are a summary of all human history.

So that the last 2000 years have been fulfilled from the Ascension of the Christ Child in Revelation 12 to Revelation.13.

I see the Book of the Apocalypse as multi-dimensional. Therefore, the Beast has multiple layers of fulfillment. In the Church age, it can be fulfilled by pagan Rome, then our modern apostasy, and the great apostasy.

For the sake of repeating myself, I’ll just paste my short article in here that goes over Revelation 12 and 20:

the Dragon and the Woman

Here’s another way to look at Revelation 12 from a Catholic view, and one that vindicates the Roman Catholic Church even better: a prophecy of the entire Church Age. For starters, read this, which discusses, what does the earth and sea symbolize? The earth could be the “Church of the Living God, which is the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15) “Build your house on solid ground, not on the sand…” “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church…”

Anyway, I see a sort of progressive diminishment of the devils reign. First he is in heaven, then earth, then the abyss, and finally the lake of fier. I could elaborate:

In the beginnning of Rev. 12, prior to the birth of Christ, the dragon is in Heaven, symbolizing that he still holds the most significant reign over mankind, as the vast majority of the nations (i.e., basically everybody but the Jews) are in the spiritual darkness of paganism and sin.

After the child is born and ascends to heaven, a “great war” breaks out, meaning, now the devil is fighting to prevent the conversion of the world (or, at least in this case, the Roman Empire). But he loses because, as in Rev. 12, the martyrs “overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and they loved not their lives unto death.” Look at the victory speech in Rev 12 and compare it to the parallel passages in Daniel 2 and 7, which likewise deal with (on one level) the Church’s victory over pagan Rome. “…for now has come the salvation, and the power and the Kingdom of our God, for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out…”(rev 12) “… that the kingdom and the power and the dominion of our God should be given to the saints…” (Daniel (I’m paraphrasing, see end of Dan 2 and Dan 7)).

So the dragon has lost, that is, he was unable to prevent the conversion of the world, so he is now thrown to “earth”, that is, the Magisterium, which he now assaults (with attacks on its doctrinal development, much like the Illuminative phase of the saint in Catholic spirituality ) .

“and the dragon pursued the woman…”:
The initial major attacks on the Mag: perhaps the Christo-Trinity heresies, Islam, and Great Schism?

“but the woman was given the wings of the foul and flew to safety, where she was nourished … away from the serpent”:
Catholic Christendom, or Age of Faith, where, indeed, the Church flourished and “rested” to some degree from the serpent?

“and the dragon spewed a river after the woman, in order that she might be carried away by it.”:
Here, in a purely allegorical sense, the devil constantly spews “floods,” that is, foundationless heresies, in order that the Church might be “carried away by them.” In the historical outline, this especially applies to the new ages ushered in with Protestantism and the Enlightenment, which unleashed an unimaginable assault of heresies upon Our Mother.

“but the earth helped the woman, and opened its mouth, and swallowed the flood that the dragon had spewed.”:
this is most certainly true both fully allegorically and historically in this outline: does not the Magisterium swallow any “flood” of heresies and preserve the Church from being carried away by error in any age? Indeed, this has also happened in the associated history: the Council of Trent so adequately swallowed the lies of the Protestant Rebels and worked out the disputed issues that another council was not needed until Vatican I. And even in the interim, the solid “earth” of the Magisterium swallowed all other lies of the Enlightenment, and Vatican I reaffirmed the Church in the impending apostasy to come.

Enraged that he was unable to destroy the Church, the dragon runs off to make war with the faithful “remnant.” He takes his position on the “sands” of the sea. Yes, the devil is a clever son of a gun! Now, he’ll be even more deceptive: instead of attacking with the total lies of a “flood”, he takes his position somewhere between the full lies (water, or the “sea”) and the full truth (the earth, or Magisterium), that is, on the sand, a surface that is partly earth and partly sea, that is, partly true and partly false, much like the half-true polarized ideologies that dominate the modern cultures: Ultra-conservatism and ultra-liberalism.

then we have, in Rev 13, the rise of the beast from the “sea” and the beast from the “earth.” Again, see the above link at the beginning of this post: JPII sees the false prophet in materialism. Modern materialism and the wide-spread apostasy and collapse of essentail morality preaches itself to be like the “earth,” that is, a sure foundation: we can violate even the essential foundations of the moral law, especially in human sexuality and life, and society will function, will be saved and secure, this also being attained exclusively from a materialistic dominion, that is, science and material affluence alone can sustain and support humanity, without any religion.

But, in reality, the beast from the earth is directing the world to follow the beast from the “sea,” that is, what is objectively nothing close to a foundation, but what is, in reality, a prescription for the “chaos” of the waves of total error and sin which will plunge humanity into disaster, where it will “drown,” not only spiritually, but, inevitable physically.

Skipping forward to the Seven Bowls, there we see when this inevitable disaster comes: the world is initially deceived into believing the false prophet, that this secular materialism and denial of essential morality can save and secure man, but, the real fruits are finally manifested, especially when we consider the Minor and Major Chastisements of prophecy, where the world will reap the fruits of its sins.

Rev. 20: “and he laid of that dragon, who is the ancient serpent, and chained him in the abyss, that he might not deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years are over… and the saints reigned with Him for a thousand years…”

Now, the devil’s dominion is even lower: from Heaven, to the earth, to the abyss, that is, he is chained for a final age prior to the VERY end, where Christ reigns not only from His throne in Heaven (Rev 12), but on “earth”, that is, as the mystics predict, following the Minor Chastisement, Christians are reunited and the Catholic faith is gloriously restored for a final “Age of Peace” before the very end, in which Chirst reigns in the “hearts of men,” in this “seventh-day, Sabbath-like rest.”

And at the end of the Age of Peace, the devil is let loose a final time, that is, at the Great apostasy and Antichrist and Tribulation, only to be utterly and permanently defeated in the “lake of fire”, at the Second Coming and ushering of the New Creation.

 

[spauline]

sorry for derailing the thread, I probably shared too much.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

No, no! Not at all. It’s just that I lost my primary source of Internet connection for several days in a row and was simultaneously highly distracted by real life events. I’ll respond to your post . . . eventually I hope . You see, while I’ve got my connection back, I’m in Washington DC for the first time in my life and I want to see as much as I can. I don’t want to get distracted by online discussions much right now.