The Church's position on faith and science - any objections?

[Luke65]

What you can’t seem to comprehend is that I do believe the Word of God, and that it tells me God created the heavens and the Earth and everything contained therein.

Ah hah! You take the first verse of Genesis literally! Do you not see that an omnipotent Creator doesn’t need “rest”?

Actually, no, there was much I wanted to address in your hypotheticals, but I’m sorry, this forum is not my life. I have a wife and kids that take much higher priority and more of my time. I hope you understand.

Sure, but I notice you had a lot of time to address other issues. (Does that sound like your wife? ) But it would be wise for you not to debate exegesis with me!

Praise be to God for however you (or anyone) makes it back to the Church. I truly am glad you are home. But as I mentioned in my previous post, that has not been my experience with YEC and you are an anomaly in that regard. Certainly, even you must agree that there are different ways of evangelizing the Gospel, and ways not to evangelize. For instance, I work with a bunch of agnostics (scientists) who are utterly turned off from Christianity due to YEC. They at least turn an eye and ear back toward Christ when I discuss theistic evolution with them. This is why I deliberately stated that I don’t mind you challenging other Christians with your YEC position, just not non-Christians. Different evangelization approaches are warranted in different cases.

Do you think I have no understanding? I try to avoid threads that have a bunch of unbelievers who use “Science” for their unbelief (besides, there are others here who are much better than me at dismantling Evolutionism and Atheism). And that’s precisely why I chose this thread to debate this issue - because there’s only one non-Christian posting here, Rossum, but he’s cool, no matter what Stephen says! But we must be able to debate these issues, and if not here at CAF, then where?

You know, the nice thing Luke65, is that at the end of the day, we are brothers in Christ. We worship the same Lord, we aspire for the same heaven, and we seek the same forgiveness of sins. We may agree to disagree, but that is the nature of dialogue sometimes. I hope you know that I have no ill will towards you, and respect your fervor for the faith. I, too, have some secrets of the kingdom that I am trying to convey to you

I think we can both agree on this: Jesus Christ is Lord.

Yes, and I know you have no ill will. And I wouldn’t engage in a long debate with you if I didn’t respect you. But I really want you to understand that you are betting all your (science) chips that the “six days” is metaphorical, but there are literally dozens of other passages that are flatly contradicted by the evo-paradigm; like this infallible “decree” from our first pope:

“if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others” (2 Peter 2:5)

And the words of our Lord:

“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’” (Mark 10:6)

I think the Son of God knows better than Richard Dawkins! And here’s a prophecy that says it all (amplified):

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation [Uniformitarianism].” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water [supernatural Creation event]. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed [supernatural Flood event].” (2 Peter 3:3-6)

“[We have to] free the science from Moses” - Charles Lyell (Father of Uniformitarianism)

Prophecy fulfilled.

 

[thunderballs75]

Wow, I’m surprised so many Catholics are anti-science. Hahaha! Kind of sad. It makes us look ignorant.

P.S. the Big Bang theory was invented by a priest named Georges Lemaitre. Food for thought.

“The Bible tells us how to find abundant life, not the details of how life became abundant.”
“The intention of the Holy Spirit is to teach us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.”
“The Bible itself speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its make-up, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise, but in order to state the correct relationships of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer.” - JP PP. II

 

[Luke65]

Fortunately, Barbarian was banned from CAF – for reasons which are obvious to anyone who objected to his ridicule of people and distortions of the Catholic Faith.

Oh, I thought it was because of someone’s powerful prayers and fasting.

Thanks again for bringing this quote to light. You’ve posted it before, so as you correctly state, it’s contents are known and therefore ignored in this case.

No, thank you!

 

[buffalo]

Wow, I’m surprised so many Catholics are anti-science. Hahaha! Kind of sad. It makes us look ignorant.

P.S. the Big Bang theory was invented by a priest named Georges Lemaitre. Food for thought.

Catholics are not against science. Catholics pretty much built modern science. What we are against is corrupted science. You have to have your head in the sand to really believe it is pure.

 

[Stephentlig]

Wow, I’m surprised so many Catholics are anti-science. Hahaha! Kind of sad. It makes us look ignorant.

P.S. the Big Bang theory was invented by a priest named Georges Lemaitre. Food for thought

 

[thunderballs75]

Catholics are not against science. Catholics pretty much built modern science. What we are against is corrupted science. You have to have your head in the sand to really believe it is pure.

Does the holy father have his head in the sand? Is he for corrupted science? Because for your information, he also supports evolutionary theory (without any atheistic connotations) as it stands today.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#Pope_Benedict_XVI

 

[buffalo]

Does the holy father have his head in the sand? Is he for corrupted science? Because for your information, he also supports evolutionary theory (without any atheistic connotations) as it stands today.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#Pope_Benedict_XVI

Proof the Pontifical Academy of Science is Run by Atheists

…The media were not very happy that in his speech to the PAS Pope Benedict XVI did not express support for the theory of evolution.

 

[thunderballs75]

thunderballs75;5240590:

Wow, I’m surprised so many Catholics are anti-science. Hahaha! Kind of sad. It makes us look ignorant.

Catholics are not anti-science, at least not me, but when that Science contradicts the doctrine of the faith, its not science but devlish.

Oh so the big bang theory was invented by a priest, a priests thoughts when they are in contradiction of the churchs teachings on faith and morals mean nothing, and its how the church discerns between the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

therefore when a priest contradicts church teaching full obedience must be shown to the divine authority as St.Paul says that we must obey God before we obey man.( acts 5:29)

God bless
Stephen<3

The only problem is, the priest was never found to be in contradiction with Church teaching (except by you). In fact, John XXIII named him prelate. He was elected a member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. He played an active role in the Church. It is only certain individuals such as yourself who find that he was in error, while the Church embraced him. And in my opinion, you have much less authority, so I’ll go with Mother Church on this one.

 

[Stephentlig]

Stephentlig;5240634:

The only problem is, the priest was never found to be in contradiction with Church teaching (except by you). In fact, John XXIII named him prelate. He was elected a member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. He played an active role in the Church. It is only certain individuals such as yourself who find that he was in error, while the Church embraced him. And in my opinion, you have much less authority, so I’ll go with Mother Church on this one.

show me where the Church teaches the big bang theory as the divine truth?

 

[thunderballs75]

Proof the Pontifical Academy of Science is Run by Atheists

…The media were not very happy that in his speech to the PAS Pope Benedict XVI did not express support for the theory of evolution.

I already knew there were atheists in the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. I don’t see anything here where it says the pope doesn’t support evolution… It doesn’t matter that atheists are there though. The job of the PAS is not to determine what science means theologically, but what the scientific consensus is. An atheist scientist is no worse at his profession than a Hindu or Catholic one. Stephen Hawking is one of the greatest scientists alive.

 

[thunderballs75]

thunderballs75;5240657:

show me where the Church teaches the big bang theory as the divine truth?

I never said the Big Bang theory is divine truth. I just said that it was never taught as contradictory to Church teaching, as you feel it is. John XXIII had no problem with it. Of course this doesn’t make the theory correct, because the pope was just a man, but it shows that its not viewed by the Church as the work of the devil as so many of you people feel it is.

Divine revelation is not the only form of truth there is, even if you don’t like to believe that. Science is another method to truth.

 

[thunderballs75]

Oh yes, also, the Church DOES teach evolution, because of the fact that it is taught in every single Catholic school/university.

 

[Stephentlig]

Stephentlig;5240661:

I never said the Big Bang theory is divine truth. I just said that it was never taught as contradictory to Church teaching, as you feel it is. John XXIII had no problem with it. Of course this doesn’t make the theory correct, because the pope was just a man, but it shows that its not viewed by the Church as the work of the devil as so many of you people feel it is.

Divine revelation is not the only form of truth there is, even if you don’t like to believe that. Science is another method to truth.

the theory itself contradicts the church on faith and morals, thus it was created outside the mind of the church, a priest or pope is not the mind of the church, faith and morals is.
the pope is not infallible upon his ideas but only on faith and morals.

therefore it is the work of the devil as it has no evidence to prove its claim.

 

[Stephentlig]

Oh yes, also, the Church DOES teach evolution, because of the fact that it is taught in every single Catholic school/university.

ladies and gentlemen of the forum this man has not read this whole discussion.yawning

 

[thunderballs75]

thunderballs75;5240670:

the theory itself contradicts the church on faith and morals, thus it was created outside the mind of the church, a priest or pope is not the mind of the church, faith and morals is.
the pope is not infallible upon his ideas but only on faith and morals.

therefore it is the work of the devil as it has no evidence to prove its claim.

Ah, thank you infallible holy father, for deciding what contradicts the Church.

No, I’ll leave it to the Magisterium to decide whether it is against the Church. So far, it hasn’t.

Other than the fact that it doesn’t coincide with your completely literal interpretation of Genesis, it seems fine to me, so please elaborate. In fact, the Church father St. Augustine felt that Genesis should not be interpreted literally. This is even before modern science existed. Anyways, the theory states the universe was created ex nihilo (Hmmm…). So far, the theory hasn’t said where it all came from. The universe came out of nothing, we can put God as the creator. I somehow don’t see the same contradiction is you. And it is plain denial to say there is no evidence to prove its claim.

 

[buffalo]

Stephentlig;5240683:

Ah, thank you infallible holy father, for deciding what contradicts the Church.

No, I’ll leave it to the Magisterium to decide whether it is against the Church. So far, it hasn’t.

The Church has been fighting evolution from the very beginning.

The constant belief and teaching of the church has been anti-evolution. Humani Generis teaching against polygenism is as recent as the 50’s. That is the constant teaching and belief of the Magisterium.

 

[thunderballs75]

thunderballs75;5240715:

The Church has been fighting evolution from the very beginning.

The constant belief and teaching of the church has been anti-evolution. Humani Generis teaching against polygenism is as recent as the 50’s. That is the constant teaching and belief of the Magisterium.

Yeah. Too bad that modern evolutionary theory supports monogenism. Oh yes, thank you for reminding me of this great encyclical.

“…the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter…” Mind you that this is in the 50’s when there was a lot less proof.

So evolutionary theory is not necessarily in contradiction with the Church. In fact, we are free to study it. And it certainly hasn’t been directly stated to be false, as you would like. This is also an authoritative statement, because in the same encyclical, Pius XII states that that encyclicals are sufficiently authoritative.

So if you go based on Humani Generis, the teaching of the Magisterium has been at most neutral. This is of course, leaving out all of the pro-evolution statements by the more recent popes and scientists. So your idea that the Church’s teaching has “constantly been anti-evolution” is very much false.

 

[buffalo]

buffalo;5240729:

Yeah. Too bad that modern evolutionary theory supports monogenism. Oh yes, thank you for reminding me of this great encyclical.

“…the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter…”

So evolutionary theory is not necessarily in contradiction with the Church. In fact, we are free to study it. And it certainly hasn’t been directly stated to be false, as you would like. This is also an authoritative statement, because in the same encyclical, Pius XII states that that encyclicals are sufficiently authoritative.

So if you go based on Humani Generis, the teaching of the Magisterium has been neutral. This is of course, leaving out any statements by the more recent popes and scientists. So your idea that the Church’s teaching has “constantly been anti-evolution” is very much false.

Why Human Evolution Can Never Become
Part of the Deposit of Faith

 

[thunderballs75]

thunderballs75;5240736:

Why Human Evolution Can Never Become
Part of the Deposit of Faith

These are the same arguments I hear over and over again. And again, the Kolbe Center is not the pope nor the Magisterium. I’m done with this.

 

[buffalo]

buffalo;5240773:

These are the same arguments I hear over and over again. And again, the Kolbe Center is not the pope nor the Magisterium. I’m done with this.

Check out the references yourself. Go to the source documents. You can find them right on the Vatican site.