The Church's relaxation of disciplines has harmed Mass attendance

[Mike_O]

I read something very interesting a few days ago spoken by an anthropologist.

He noted that the religions that demand the most from their adherents are the ones with the highest rates of growth today in the world.

The faith that comes to mind immediately is Islam. Prayer five times a day, serious fasting during Ramadan and Muharram, and similar disciplines. Sadly, Islam is growing very quickly, far more so than Catholicism, with 1 billion + adherents.

Catholicism has 1.2 billon + followers, but, where devotion is concerned, things are not looking good. The anthropologist I mentioned noted something interesting and perhaps obvious. During the 1950’s and the 1960’s, when many of the Church disciplines were far more stringent, Mass attendance was about 70% on each Sunday.

Now it’s around 33%. The List of Forbidden Books was done away with, meaning Catholics flock to trash such as the Da Vinci Code.

The bishops seem to move every other Holy Day of Obligation to the nearest weekend Mass or do away with them altogether.

Catholics are required to receive the Eucharist only once per year during Easter.

Fasting on every single Friday throughout the year, if not formally done away with, has been obscured to the point where very few follow this discipline.

Confessions are available more rarely at most parishes and far more Catholics have gone multiple years without the sacrament.

The list goes on. I think it is worthwhile to pray that the bishops and those directing the actions of the Church, particularly in the United States, will revive some of these disciplines.

Eucharistic Adoration, the Rosary, the fasting, Reconciliation, retreats, parish prayer…these things are not, as they once were, available in every parish, but very few. If Catholicism is to grow once more and retain among those 1.2 billion members far more who are faithful, these devotions and disciplines should be brought back again as they were when Mass attendance was far, far higher than it is now. It is no surprise to see such laxity when people are poorly catechized and their Church consistently relaxes the requirements.

 

[MrS]

amazing, huh…

come on Pope Benedict… get tough:thumbsup:

 

[svoboda]

But isn’t the Church experiencing great growth in the third world?

I think the West in general is becoming less and less religious. I have seen statistics alleging that Christianity is losing one percent of each followers per year, and that Christians will become a minority even in the US by mid 21st century. Europe is already pretty secular.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Things may be looking up in this respect at any rate:
Mike O:

Catholics are required to receive the Eucharist only once per year during Easter.

The Easter Duty, positive precept to receive the Eucharist during Easter, dates back to at least Lateran IV (1215).

In the early years of the last century, Pope St Pius X enjoined the faithful to more frequently partake the Sacrament.

post hoc ergo propter hoc,
tee

 

[Eileen_T]

“…the religions that demand the most from their adherents are the ones with the highest rates of growth today in the world.”

When Catholics are prepared, once again, to die for their Faith, the Church will grow in Western countries as it is growing where Catholics are being persecutedf and martyred today.

 

[Mike_D30]

I agree completely, as a recent wayward Catholic, I long for good old fashioned tough Church discipline (I’m actually counting the days until Lent so I can fast to sacrifice for God). A Church shouldn’t change with times or bend to pop-culture. Although compared to most Christian Churches the Catholic Church has done a great job with standing firm, so not all hope is lost.

Maybe start by bringing back the Tridentine Mass in every Church, every Sunday. (The Missals can have translations).

Good Post

 

[Veritas41]

I would be curious to find out how the Eastern Orthodox Churches are growing. They require much more fasting than the Catholic Church (I think this is true even of Eastern Rite Catholic Churches–I wonder how they’re doing?) and more reverence/discipline.

 

[asteroid]

Mike O:

Catholicism has 1.2 The bishops seem to move every other Holy Day of Obligation to the nearest weekend Mass or do away with them altogether.

Fasting on every single Friday throughout the year, if not formally done away with, has been obscured to the point where very few follow this discipline.

Growls about the first one.

I didn’t even know the second one still existed until a couple of months ago. A lot of people seem to think that fasting will kill you. In RCIA if I ever mentioned it - even if it was just missing one meal - I was put down. Very dangerous. You might end up in hospital. Aaaargh. I don’t have diabetes or anything. It won’t kill. It didn’t kill in the past. It still won’t.

And I do find with a lot of people in the church that if you say you want to do something spiritual they immediately warn you against doing too much, doing everything. You don’t want to be spiritual, devote your life more to God. It’s annoying.

Then again, what brands of Christianity are growing in the West? Is it really the ones that demand so much of you? In some cases yes. But in other cases no. It’s very often the pentecostal churches that are mushrooming. Here it’s the local baptist church. The demands on your life in these churches are not massive. Much of the growth of our local baptist church comes from influx from other churches. They convert people but those people find too much demanded so they turn baptist, where unfortunately they can be limp. (All of this is much to the annoyance of the local baptist minister)

 

[wjp984]

Islam grows so fast and is so religiously followed since isn’t the penalty death for blasphemy there?

 

[Wisdom]

Veritas41:

I would be curious to find out how the Eastern Orthodox Churches are growing. They require much more fasting than the Catholic Church (I think this is true even of Eastern Rite Catholic Churches–I wonder how they’re doing?) and more reverence/discipline.

The Eastern Orthodox Churchs are growing in the West due to immigration mostly. Their overall numbers are near stagnant and represent little or no growth worldwide. So they are merly relocating members rather than growing as a church worldwide. Beleive it or not Catholcism is growing worldwide the problem is that membership in the developed world is growing increasingly nominal. The growth is impressive in places like Africa and in parts of Asia however secularism has overtaken Europe and has turned Americans into cafeteria catholics this is not something unique to catholcism but is also present in Orthodoxy and Protestantism. Overall Christiantiy is growing minimally. The largest christian sect as far as growth are not even trinitarian christians. Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses outgrow trinitarian christianity and of course Islam is the fast growing religious sect in the world today.

 

[Libero]

I think it is less to do with the strict factor, and more to do with the fear factor. The church was far stricter - and far more scary back then, people were scred of hell, and the church was an authority - my grandad was scared of the church, he recalls when you couldn’t eat or drink anything from midnight on Saturday, until you had finished mass on the Sunday (and the people in church would check) - he said he hated that

People are not as scared of the church anymore, they no longer believe in a real hell, and thus do not feel obliged to commit to the faith fully. :twocents:

 

[rwoehmke]

Am I wrong in saying that it sounds like your opinions are that Catholic practice and devotion has decline because the priests and bishops are not rigorous enough. What is being missed as a factor is the treadmill that many modern families find them selves on. Mom and Dad both work sometimes more than forty hours a week each. When there are kids to be cared for as well where do they find the time for a spiritual life. Like the men of the early industrial revolution who worked 72 hour work weeks with Sunday off our soceity is so pressed in on every side for time, time for work, time for kids, time to shop for necessities. It is run run run and there is precious little time for Religion. Bring back all the devotionals and pius disciplines and I hesitate to even think that our Churches will be jammed for the Rosary, Way of the Cross, or Our Lady of Perpetual help devotions like they used to be. If we had a lifestyle like we had in the 40’s and 50’s I would venture to say there might be a chance, but life in the 2000’s is not as user friendly.

 

[USMC]

Mike_D30:

I agree completely, as a recent wayward Catholic, I long for good old fashioned tough Church discipline (I’m actually counting the days until Lent so I can fast to sacrifice for God). A Church shouldn’t change with times or bend to pop-culture…
Maybe start by bringing back the Tridentine Mass in every Church, every Sunday. (The Missals can have translations).

Good Post

Amen. I am counting the days with you.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Mike_D30:

I agree completely, as a recent wayward Catholic, I long for good old fashioned tough Church discipline (I’m actually counting the days until Lent so I can fast to sacrifice for God). A Church shouldn’t change with times or bend to pop-culture. Although compared to most Christian Churches the Catholic Church has done a great job with standing firm, so not all hope is lost.

Maybe start by bringing back the Tridentine Mass in every Church, every Sunday. (The Missals can have translations).

Good Post

You know, there is nothing to prevent us from taking disciplines and sacrifices upon ourselves. We don’t have to wait for Lent. I’ve thought of going back to the old Friday discipline for the conversion of souls (my own being a good starting point).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What is being missed as a factor is the treadmill that many modern families find them selves on. Mom and Dad both work sometimes more than forty hours a week each. When there are kids to be cared for as well where do they find the time for a spiritual life. Like the men of the early industrial revolution who worked 72 hour work weeks with Sunday off our soceity is so pressed in on every side for time, time for work, time for kids, time to shop for necessities. It is run run run and there is precious little time for Religion. Bring back all the devotionals and pius disciplines and I hesitate to even think that our Churches will be jammed for the Rosary, Way of the Cross, or Our Lady of Perpetual help devotions like they used to be. If we had a lifestyle like we had in the 40’s and 50’s I would venture to say there might be a chance, but life in the 2000’s is not as user friendly.

A couple of points to consider>

The 1940s and 1950s were actually anomalies (and they were limited as well to at least moderate income, suburban, and mainly white people to boot).

For the main part of history, MOST men and women lived short, and poor, lives. 70 hour work weeks would have been greeted as “easy”. And the work was HARD. Do you know how hard it is to plant crops? To spin wool? Bake over open hearths? And all this without motors or power tools or even electric light? Imagine also no antibiotics etc and epidemics of disease. Remember that the average person born in 1900 (my dad was born that year, he had me very late in life ) had a life span of 47. 47! Today it is 77 or greater in many countries.

Did you know that close to 50% of women would die in childbirth due to puerperal fever–and that only changed around 1850??

That child labor was still going on in the first decade of the 20th century in the U.S.?

and. . .here’s the kicker. . .for all of those times, when men and women lived HARD, SHORT, lives. . . the majority of Catholics had MORE devotions, GREATER fasting, and deeper protestations of faith. How many Catholics entered the seminary and the convent in those centuries? Went off to be missionaries? Or just lived in the old home town but spent more time on their knees in prayer, and were DELIGHTED to “offer things up” for Jesus?

 

[Mike_D30]

Tantum ergo:

and. . .here’s the kicker. . .for all of those times, when men and women lived HARD, SHORT, lives. . . the majority of Catholics had MORE devotions, GREATER fasting, and deeper protestations of faith. How many Catholics entered the seminary and the convent in those centuries? Went off to be missionaries? Or just lived in the old home town but spent more time on their knees in prayer, and were DELIGHTED to “offer things up” for Jesus?

I think that’s very interesting, someone brought up the devoutness of Muslims, which I agree appears to much greater than Catholics (as a whole, too many fallen away Catholics to compete).

But what do the Muslims of today and our Catholic forebearers have in common? TOUGH LIVES! You’re average Muslim country has soaring unemployment, two classes disgustingly rich and everyone else, huge nomadic tribes that live the same way they did 2,000 years ago, constant war and strife in the region, etc…

Perhaps when there’s little else in life is when people can truly see the important things in life, God and family.

The West is so decadent now, people feel no need for God, and I think this is a huge reason for the lax followers of the Catholic Church today.

 

[oldfogey]

Only a minor point, but the death rate from childbirth infections was caused by the advent of lying in hospitals, where the infection was spread by doctors ( see "The Cry and the Convenant.) Women did not die from sepsis at a 50% rate throughout history.

 

[Veritas41]

Thank you, Wisdom, for the information on the Eastern Orthodox Churches. What you said about the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses confirms my own personal experience: it seems the farther a church gets from the truth, the more evangelistic it becomes. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, but for most of the Catholics I’ve met the past eight years, evangelism is barely on their radar screen. They seem to have an “I’m okay, you’re okay” attitude towards non-Catholics.

 

[rwoehmke]

Tantum ergo:

A couple of points to consider>

The 1940s and 1950s were actually anomalies (and they were limited as well to at least moderate income, suburban, and mainly white people to boot).

For the main part of history, MOST men and women lived short, and poor, lives. 70 hour work weeks would have been greeted as “easy”. And the work was HARD. Do you know how hard it is to plant crops? To spin wool? Bake over open hearths? And all this without motors or power tools or even electric light? Imagine also no antibiotics etc and epidemics of disease. Remember that the average person born in 1900 (my dad was born that year, he had me very late in life ) had a life span of 47. 47! Today it is 77 or greater in many countries.

Did you know that close to 50% of women would die in childbirth due to puerperal fever–and that only changed around 1850??

That child labor was still going on in the first decade of the 20th century in the U.S.?

and. . .here’s the kicker. . .for all of those times, when men and women lived HARD, SHORT, lives. . . the majority of Catholics had MORE devotions, GREATER fasting, and deeper protestations of faith. How many Catholics entered the seminary and the convent in those centuries? Went off to be missionaries? Or just lived in the old home town but spent more time on their knees in prayer, and were DELIGHTED to “offer things up” for Jesus?

I lived in Detroit for two years when I was 7 and 8. In the city the churches were full for devotions on tuesday and friday evenings. Kids in Catholic school attended daily Mass before classes. After that we moved back to the farm and as I grew up fed chickens, slopped hogs, and gathered eggs. When we brought in hay I drove the horses to pull the hay up into the hay mow. As I got older I cultivated corn, cut hay and milked cows by hand. In the late summer and fall we shocked oats and corn and after frost we husked corn by hand. Yes I think I knew about hard work. We had one car and my dad drove to Detroit five days a week to work in an auto plant. about a three hour round trip. He used to talk about unionizing the auto plants and the violence that took place.On the farm we didn’t get to attend many devotions, but got to Mass on Sundays and had family rosary.

Child labor laws were not passsed until the thirties under FDR. I remember for a while when I was really young my dad worked for the WPA. He may have been a Democrat, but I still have a lot of respect for FDR.

 

[Eileen_T]

The Church’s relaxation of disciplines has harmed Mass attendance

About the same time as the NZ Bishops abandoned the Feast of All Saints as a Holy Day of Obligation, New Zealand started observing ‘Halloween’ American-style. Just an observation.

We have regressed to a time when many of our ‘Shepherds’ (not all, thank God) have caved-in to a desire for popularity. They want to be liked, so they back-off from teaching ‘hard things’ with authority.

What we need are priests like St Anastasius who stood up against the bishops of his time who were accepting the heresy of Arius. Fortunately, God has sent us such priests, Fr John Corapi to name just one.