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Cat_Herder
Guest
So let me get this straight… You say:
- Man cannot do anything to be saved
- To be saved one must show faith in Jesus
- Upon showing such faith one receives the Holy Spirit
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Nom_the_Wise
Guest
*Hhhaaarr Hsssssss Raaawwrr * (Get it. “Cat fight”? QuickCat vs. Cat Herder?)
…nevermind…
Works proceed from Faith. But faith has to come first, and as I’ve always understood it, faith is given to us by God. There might be a case where an atheist, while engaged in doing “good works.” suddenly finds him or herself drawing closer to God. But God calls to us. CS Lewis once put it as we could not call out to God if God had not called out to us first. (Paraphrasing).
…nevermind…
Works proceed from Faith. But faith has to come first, and as I’ve always understood it, faith is given to us by God. There might be a case where an atheist, while engaged in doing “good works.” suddenly finds him or herself drawing closer to God. But God calls to us. CS Lewis once put it as we could not call out to God if God had not called out to us first. (Paraphrasing).
I wouldn’t say the above.
ISTM that Catholics would agree with #1, or fall into pelagianism or at least semipelagianism.
One cannot be regenerate without the Holy Spirit. This is why infant baptism is so important.
So, I guess what I’m saying is your scenario is not what sola fide teaches, at least not from the Lutheran view.
Jon
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Goodcreature
Guest
I though it was “technically” faith alone, but that faith was a two part deal: intellectual acknowledgement and trust, and obedience (AKA works). “Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.” (Romans 1:5) It is entirely possible ( if not likely 
) that I’m incorrect in this statement; that’s why there’s all those smart people that have had a substantial education in Church doctrine to clean up my messes. 
) that I’m incorrect in this statement; that’s why there’s all those smart people that have had a substantial education in Church doctrine to clean up my messes. :slapfight:
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Truthstalker
Guest
I agree with Jon. I’m not sure this even has much to do with faith alone.
I agree with 1 and to a limited extent with 2; 3 is ambiguous. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and then we believe, and then He saves us, and then we receive Him. There is a logical progression in salvation implicit that would need to be fleshed out here.
How are you using the word ‘reprobate’? That has a specific meaning in some theologies.
What does it mean for the Holy Spirit to dwell in someone?
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Why are you requiring a work in addition to grace?
While I don’t completely agree with Truthstalker’s phrasing, I also don’t believe there is a work here in addition to grace. The Holy Spirit brings one to regeneration, justifies by grace through faith. Faith in itself is a gift of grace, and not a work. One recieves faith (I don’t agree with the phrase “accept Jesus into your heart” for this very reason).
Works are, however, required of the regnerate, not because they add to grace, but because they are commanded by God - “Love your neighbor as youself”. Failure to do God’s commands is sin, and sin, repeated and unrepented, leads to a loss of saving faith - becomes a dead faith, as James tells us.
Jon
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Cat_Herder
Guest
What is the difference between faith and grace?
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gcnuss
Guest
An excellent explanation, Jon. Can’t think of anything to add to such a straightforward description of the places of grace and faith in our justification. And, indeed, although our works don’t gain salvation for us, failure to do them can turn us away from the salvation we have already been granted.
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Truthstalker
Guest
On looking at it I don’t know if I agree with me either.
Grace, from
cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=G&t2=r
Good will and favor shown to one who can plead no merit*; particularly, the love of God in relation to the sinner as such. There may be love, but not grace, bet. equals or bet. a judge and an innocent person. Grace implies mercy or compassion for one who has by every right forfeited his claim on love. Such is the grace of God to the sinner. It is “free” because it is not grounded in any worthiness of man (Ro 11:6). Any admixture of merit or deserts, as constituting a claim on mercy, destroys the very essence of grace. Merit and grace are mutually exclusive.
Faith from Fr. Martin Luther:
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Code:
... faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words. Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do. *
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Scripture tells us we receive faith through the hearing of the word, and the sacraments. God’s love is always there. Consider the rich man who asked Jesus about enternal life. It says that Jesus loved him, just before he walked away.
I’ve never seen the whole “dung heap” quote verified, not that that kind of language would have been beyond Luther. I’m not smart enough, quite admittedly, to completely understand the difference between infused and imputed righteousness. But I will say this, it is Lutheran belief that we, the regenerate are at once saint and sinner, and that through our sanctification we grow in His grace as we strive to live a Godly life, while we “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”.
I think it would be naive to think that the Lutheran Reformation was simply a big misunderstanding. There are some real differences in our views of justification, concupiscense, etc. That’s not to say that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, reconciliation isn’t possible.
Jon
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Truthstalker
Guest
Someone told me that what Catholics mean by justification is what Protestants mean when they say justification and sanctification. Justification cannot really be separated from sanctification - it is only the first step. Only those justified become sanctified, only those sanctified were justified, and in reality it is like two sides of a piece of paper - you cannot have one without another. You may start off as a snow-covered dung heap, but God immediately begins turning that dung heap into pure gold.
Faith without works is dead. Real faith will have works, given the opportunity. It’s intrinsic to its nature.
Faith without works is dead. Real faith will have works, given the opportunity. It’s intrinsic to its nature.
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thenobes
Guest
I think:
Sanctification allows one to merit the grace granted. That is, Grace, the supprt of faith, is granted as a gift, but the reception by us, of that Grace, is enabled by merit, our sanctification through previous assent to Grace.
How might I be wrong here, in your view?
peace
steve
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Truthstalker
Guest
I’ve already proven I am theologically inarticulate but here it goes anyway.
I’m not sure about some of the terminology you used, but I will use terms I am familiar with.
Salvation is a gift from first to last. Once you turn it from something that is a gift to something that is earned, you have radically changed the nature of the transaction. You can demand wages for work. Since we are told that we are to tell Him that we are only unworthy servants, we dare not go on a wage-based relationship with God for several reasons. One, we don’t do ANYTHING that is worth getting paid for. Secondly, Jesus paid it ALL and to set our feeble efforts besides His amounts to insulting His finished work on the cross. This would be an incredible act of ingratitude, a blasphemous slap in the face of His grace that He has extended to us. Thirdly, we will get a lot more as a gift freely given to us by our Loving Father than we ever would if we felt we were in a position to demand wages.
Fourthly, what we merit, by our actions, is eternal punishment until we are completely sanctified.
I think of the parable of the prodigal son, who demanded his wages. That did not turn out so well. God adopts us into His family. We are no longer paid servants but heirs of the kingdom. I think getting an attitude of we merit such and such may have the tendency to mercantilize the Gospel. God wants a father-son relationship with each of us, not a boss-employee one.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
I think you have faith confused with grace.
First of all, there is no biblical evidence that the mere hearing of the Word gives anyone grace or faith. It’s not like a Baptist pastor can walk around and shout at people and they become saved. (Now I have this mental image of Godzilla coming out of a giant red-brick Baptist church while breathing fire…)
The sacraments (e.g. Baptism) do give grace, but they do not give faith per se. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. But since grace gives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit then gives faith after someone receives grace through Baptism. If one has not received grace before he receives faith, then how did he get faith?
Here is the relevant part of the JDDJ:
- We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].
See how the Lutheran position says that there is a special “love of God” that is “imparted to the person in justification?” That “love of God” is grace. And “we confess together” that this occurs “by the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism.” Just call grace what it is and ditch the Baptist Godzilla stuff and then there is no difference between us.
Uh, no.
Romans 10:17 * Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.*
DRB
The Holy Spirit works through the word and sacraments. Hence, grace.
I don’t think I implied anything different than what we find in Romans 10 or in the JDDJ, quite frankly, and I don’t have much experience with Baptist preachers or Godzilla, to tell the truth.
Jon
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Cat_Herder
Guest
So then how are babies saved if they can’t hear the Word? Deaf people? The mentally disabled?
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