The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Michael_Mayo]

The Intercessors of the Lamb was mentioned because they claim to be contemplatives. The title of the thread is “the cloud of unknowing and contemplative prayer”, I suppose there is no quantitative measurement for spiritual union though many have tried. God alone sees the heart.

As far as people wishing to read this piece of literature as well as any others I doubt my opinions would influence anyone here.

Do you believe yourself to be “contemplative”?

 

[InLight247]

cj, it seems your concern is about the authentic nature of contemplation. Since you are clear many so-called “contemplation” are false, why waste time on them? Why not spend time to better understand true Catholic contemplation?

Genuine contemplation results from our loving relationship with God.
A true contemplative should live a generous Gospel life and make efforts toward holiness. His primary concern is to please God and to serve God better. He practices the inner quietness in the divine presence.

Our journey to contemplation could starts from the recollection of God. Brother Lawrence’s “The Practice of the Presence of God” is the best book to read. This book teaches us how to form a habit of recollection, how to practice the awareness of God day and night, in the crowd or alone, and in everything we do. If we could maintain a frequent dialogue with God or have a constant silent gaze on God, we are in acquired contemplation. Hope this helps.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The Intercessors of the Lamb was mentioned because they claim to be contemplatives. The title of the thread is “the cloud of unknowing and contemplative prayer”, I suppose there is no quantitative measurement for spiritual union though many have tried. God alone sees the heart.

As far as people wishing to read this piece of literature as well as any others I doubt my opinions would influence anyone here.

Fred Phelps claimed to be a Christian, too. So by your logic the Pope may be just like Phelps and with a similar agenda, because he presents himself to be “Christian.”

But Fred Phelps hasn’t been a very well known public figure, properly ordained in the Catholic Church, having “survived” at least three popes, all of whom were made quite aware of Rohr and his publications on repeated occasions, and was not censored in any way by the Church or his Abbots during that time.

If the Intercessors of the Lamb were censured by the Church, then there is no comparison with them and either Rohr or Snowmass or contemplative prayer or the Cloud, or anything at all having to do with the topic at hand, except it’s another lame load of BS you are throwing at it because you are obviously uninformed and mostly likely very frightened of the entire issue of mysticism. And naturally if you fear it, then I would expect that you would wish it would go away and other Catholics would just stop it…

You said you liked Rohr and the Snowmass crowd as if you used to read their work except apparently until the fear-mongers you have bought into got hold of you, and that you wish there were somewhere it could be discussed. I told you there was, and you have not contacted me for the information to get there. I suspect you have no intention at all to discussing any of it, with any motive other than to continue to try to disrupt it.

I’m calling you out right now. Please tell me the top three Most Important Things you have learned from Rohr that you found worthy of considering, prior to the time you became afraid of him.

I’m beginning to think you just made that up intentionally to pretend to be more informed and open minded than you actually are. If you have not lied in this way, prove me wrong and I will apologize. If I have accused you falsely, then even if you fail to “prove me wrong” then may God have mercy on me.

From here, it looks like you are an obstacle to faith, not because you wish to be but because you have bought into lies straight from hell, and are unwittingly spreading those lies. At least I hope you are doing it unwittingly, because I’m not accusing you of any sin. I’m observing that you appear to have been fooled into working for the “wrong team” – just as you seem to think we are.

MS

 

[DBT]

Brother Lawrence’s “The Practice of the Presence of God”.

Thank you Inlight … so good to see you again!

Brother Lawrence speaks of acquired contemplation in a manner not all too different from the author of The Cloud. Tonight I just happened to be reading from Letter 7 where Brother speaks of an approach to God with certain parallels to The Cloud’s concept of “naked intent” described in an earlier post … a way of prayer that is both simple … and all consuming:

Remain before God like a poor, mute paralytic at the door of a rich man. Strive to be attentive to God’s presence. If your mind wanders or withdraws occasionally, don’t get upset. Since these disturbances tend to distract the mind rather than focus it, we must use the will to gently collect our thoughts. If you persevere in this manner God will have mercy on you.

An easy way to keep the mind from wandering during the time of mental prayer is to keep it as still as possible - not to let it take flight - during the day. You must keep it faithfully in God’s presence; and once you are accustomed to think of him from time to time, it will be easy to remain calm during prayer, or at least to bring the mind back when it wanders

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

cj, it seems your concern is about the authentic nature of contemplation. Since you are clear many so-called “contemplation” are false, why waste time on them? Why not spend time to better understand true Catholic contemplation?

Genuine contemplation results from our loving relationship with God.
A true contemplative should live a generous Gospel life and make efforts toward holiness. His primary concern is to please God and to serve God better. He practices the inner quietness in the divine presence.

Our journey to contemplation could starts from the recollection of God. Brother Lawrence’s “The Practice of the Presence of God” is the best book to read. This book teaches us how to form a habit of recollection, how to practice the awareness of God day and night, in the crowd or alone, and in everything we do. If we could maintain a frequent dialogue with God or have a constant silent gaze on God, we are in acquired contemplation. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the explanation yet I already have an understanding of contemplative prayer as defined by the catechism.

Yes, true spiritually advanced people are very humble and they do not brag or make false claims.

The three stages of the spiritual journey are purging,illumination and union.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Thanks for the explanation yet I already have an understanding of contemplative prayer as defined by the catechism.

Could you please summarize, then, what you believe the Catechism teaching to be? Anyone can cite or recite the Catechism verbatim and have no real “understanding” of what the CCC says, so I’m interested to hear your explanation, in words that you, personally, put together to communicate the essence of what you think about it.

Yes, true spiritually advanced people are very humble and they do not brag or make false claims.

The three stages of the spiritual journey are purging,illumination and union.

Please clarify your reference about bragging or making false claims because I didn’t see that in the question you were responding to here. I understood the question to be, (and either way if it wasn’t then I’ll ask it now), that if your concern is that there are false claims out there, why waste time on them? Why go to all this trouble to do the Chicken Little routine about some alleged “contemplative” like Rohr?

If you think it’s your calling by God, to do whatever you can to dissuade others from listening to someone you are afraid of, although the Pope and his abbot seem to be OK with him, then I understand. You dig in where you think you need to. But if you’re just in the business of judging others’ prayer forms, and/or like to be the conveyor of scary information of whatever is motivating you, that’s a different angle. I’m just asking you to fess up to your real motivation here and why you are spending so much of your time on this thread. Is it because you really are looking for understanding? Or that you believe you have a superior understanding and are trying to educate or warn others? Or is it that you have bought into a course of action by fueling the fires of division in the Church that has you imprisoned in its power?

Frankly if it’s the last one, then I really have no choice but to believe you were sent here by the Holy Spirit, and I honestly hope this thread is not too disturbing for you. Actually, technically, I must admit that the Holy Spirit has sent you here whether I like it or not. Maybe I should choose to like it, eh? I really do like you but you come across slicker than “Slick Willy” and “Tricky Dick,” combined, in your way of responding in this thread. That’s why I believe you are very intelligent, and I think a good dose of “contemplative prayer” done according to whatever source you approve of, could be a Good Thing for you. If it’s anything like what is has done for me and apparently others, or better phrased, like what it has enabled the Holy Spirit to do in us, then I think you’d really like it.

Do you believe yourself to be “contemplative”?

Bumping the question.

MS

 

[cjforJesus]

Could you please summarize, then, what you believe the Catechism teaching to be? Anyone can cite or recite the Catechism verbatim and have no real “understanding” of what the CCC says, so I’m interested to hear your explanation, in words that you, personally, put together to communicate the essence of what you think about it.

Please clarify your reference about bragging or making false claims because I didn’t see that in the question you were responding to here. I understood the question to be, (and either way if it wasn’t then I’ll ask it now), that if your concern is that there are false claims out there, why waste time on them? Why go to all this trouble to do the Chicken Little routine about some alleged “contemplative” like Rohr?

If you think it’s your calling by God, to do whatever you can to dissuade others from listening to someone you are afraid of, although the Pope and his abbot seem to be OK with him, then I understand. You dig in where you think you need to. But if you’re just in the business of judging others’ prayer forms, and/or like to be the conveyor of scary information of whatever is motivating you, that’s a different angle. I’m just asking you to fess up to your real motivation here and why you are spending so much of your time on this thread. Is it because you really are looking for understanding? Or that you believe you have a superior understanding and are trying to educate or warn others? Or is it that you have bought into a course of action by fueling the fires of division in the Church that has you imprisoned in its power?

Frankly if it’s the last one, then I really have no choice but to believe you were sent here by the Holy Spirit, and I honestly hope this thread is not too disturbing for you. Actually, technically, I must admit that the Holy Spirit has sent you here whether I like it or not. Maybe I should choose to like it, eh? I really do like you but you come across slicker than “Slick Willy” and “Tricky Dick,” combined, in your way of responding in this thread. That’s why I believe you are very intelligent, and I think a good dose of “contemplative prayer” done according to whatever source you approve of, could be a Good Thing for you. If it’s anything like what is has done for me and apparently others, or better phrased, like what it has enabled the Holy Spirit to do in us, then I think you’d really like it.

Bumping the question.

MS

Contemplative prayer is a fixed gaze at Jesus. He looks at me and I at Him. To best prepare to engage in contemplation St Teresa told her nuns to meditate on the passion of Jesus Christ

The prayer form taught by Meninger Keating and Pennington is not contemplative but c-------- prayer. The goal of this type of prayer is the same as Buddhism and Hinduism,a kundalini awakening. Since a kundalini awakening can be achieved through shaktipat as well as tantric sodomy I have great reservations as to what one is actually dealing with. I will have to just leave it at that and take my leave.I truly hope I did not offend anyone here. Peace and God bless

Carol

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Contemplative prayer is a fixed gaze at Jesus. He looks at me and I at Him. To best prepare to engage in contemplation St Teresa told her nuns to meditate on the passion of Jesus Christ

The prayer form taught by Meninger Keating and Pennington is not contemplative but c-------- prayer. The goal of this type of prayer is the same as Buddhism and Hinduism,a kundalini awakening. Since a kundalini awakening can be achieved through shaktipat as well as tantric sodomy I have great reservations as to what one is actually dealing with. I will have to just leave it at that and take my leave.I truly hope I did not offend anyone here. Peace and God bless

Carol

Keating, Meninger and Pennigton(RIP) belong to a contemplative order of monks, The Cistercians of the Strict Observance, also known as Trappist.

Their knowledge and experience in contemplative prayer far exceeds the yours or the critics you follow.

They are not the only contemplative order of monks who teach the same as they do. Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians and others, teach the same method of contemplative prayer, because it goes back to the 4th century from the Mystics of the Desert like Abba Isaac and St John Cassian.

The Eastern Orthodox also use the same method and I have read their works as well.

You need to educate yourself about what they taught rather than what the critics who don’t come close to having the equivalent experience with contemplation as they do.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

They are not the only contemplative order of monks who teach the same as they do. Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians and others, teach the same method of contemplative prayer, because it goes back to the 4th century from the Mystics of the Desert like Abba Isaac and St John Cassian.

The Eastern Orthodox also use the same method and I have read their works as well.

*Please do not make these assertions. * Such is getting into that topic which is banned. Such a claim is to discuss it.

If someone does such a drive by claim - is not to be done - for others cannot then come in any say “it is not so”. They cannot discuss it and dispute the claim.

It would also be not correct- fair- for someone who was “contra” the subject to make an assertion of negative nature (or post say some anti- website or something). And then mention -oh it is banned…I will leave it there (they can indeed have all the good intentions in the world but then the effect is that the assertion will just have to stand without discussion…for it is indeed banned).

Neither those in favor or those not in favor or those who do not care either way - ought to bring the matter up. And that includes short references or assertions either pro or con.

So please do not discuss this topic or make assertions (which is a kind of discussion thought one might realize it at first)- for they cannot be discussed or disputed.

*And other posters as well *- for or against - please do not continue to make various claims either way about the banned topic. Thanks

 

[Robert_Sock]

Keating, Meninger and Pennigton(RIP) belong to a contemplative order of monks, The Cistercians of the Strict Observance, also known as Trappist.

Their knowledge and experience in contemplative prayer far exceeds the yours or the critics you follow.

They are not the only contemplative order of monks who teach the same as they do. Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians and others, teach the same method of contemplative prayer, because it goes back to the 4th century from the Mystics of the Desert like Abba Isaac and St John Cassian.

The Eastern Orthodox also use the same method and I have read their works as well.

You need to educate yourself about what they taught rather than what the critics who don’t come close to having the equivalent experience with contemplation as they do.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

*Please do not make these assertions. * Such is getting into that topic which is banned. Such a claim is to discuss it.

So you never fail to take a shot at the banned topic.

Let me just say, they and myself have the experience, you don’t.

Nuff said

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

So you never fail to take a shot at the banned topic.

Let me just say, they and myself have the experience, you don’t.

Nuff said

Jim

Cease saying such. I am noting clearly what I noted. It it is unfair to keep making drive by sort references that one cannot then discuss -for such a discussion is not permitted (as are the drive by claims).

Such a statement is unfounded - * you do not know my knowledge or experience on the subject* in the past…now do you?

Just because someone does not agree with you on a topic or notes that they it is unfair to make assertions about a topic that one is then not permitted to refute or discuss etc…does not mean that a person does not know of the matter in question.

It is a banned topic - please do not bring it up again (make claims etc).

 

[Robert_Sock]

Cease saying such. I am noting clearly what I noted. It it is unfair to keep making drive by sort references that one cannot then discuss -for such a discussion is not permitted (as are the drive by claims).

Again* you do not know my knowledge or experience on the subject* - or if I have given say a talk in the past on that topic in support of it years ago…now do you?

Just because someone does not agree with you on a topic or notes that they it is unfair to make assertions about a topic that one is then not permitted to refute or discuss etc…does not mean that a person does not know of the matter in question.

It is a banned topic - please do not bring it up again (make claims etc).

We should be discussing The Cloud of Unknowing, which is not banned and everything between them is the same.

 

[Bookcat]

We should be discussing The Cloud of Unknowing, which is not banned and has everything between them is the same.

The first part - I agree with. A beloved book.

The second part would again be a claim that one is not to make - for we can not discuss the subject and dispute such a claim.

Please everyone discontinue such. Thanks.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Cease saying such. I am noting clearly what I noted. It it is unfair to keep making drive by sort references that one cannot then discuss -for such a discussion is not permitted (as are the drive by claims).

Such a statement is unfounded - * you do not know my knowledge or experience on the subject* in the past…now do you?

Just because someone does not agree with you on a topic or notes that they it is unfair to make assertions about a topic that one is then not permitted to refute or discuss etc…does not mean that a person does not know of the matter in question.

It is a banned topic - please do not bring it up again (make claims etc).

You attacked my post as being an assertion and the banned topic, which I said nothing about.

So, if you don’t want me to respond to your negative posts, stop posting them

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

You attacked my post as being an assertion and the banned topic, which I said nothing about.

So, if you don’t want me to respond to your negative posts, stop posting them

Jim

It actually was - please go back and read what you wrote in that in your corrospondance with the OP.

It is not an attack.

It is a reminder not to make such assertions.I people will not do so I will not need to anyone… (even if one does so by accident) thanks.

I have as you know also affirmed those things you have written on other subjects in the past. That is what I prefer to do

Peace in Christ.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It actually was - please go back and read what you wrote in that in your corrospondance with the OP.

It is not an attack.

It is a reminder not to make such assertions.I people will not do so I will not need to anyone… (even if one does so by accident) thanks.

I have as you know also affirmed those things you have written on other subjects in the past. That is what I prefer to do

Peace in Christ.

You attacked my post, not the poster who was referring to the banned topic.

This is typical of your behavior in this forum.

You throw the grenade, than deny you it was an attack.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

You attacked my post, not the poster who was referring to the banned topic.

This is typical of your behavior in this forum.

I did not attack.

And if you will read again the post I referred in it to both those for or against the topic. That it was unfair for them to mention such as well…And at the end I made a reference at the end that such is for everyone…

Neither those in favor or those not in favor or those who do not care either way - ought to bring the matter up. And that includes short references or assertions either pro or con.

So please do not discuss this topic or make assertions (which is a kind of discussion thought one might realize it at first)- for they cannot be discussed or disputed.

*And other posters as well **- for or against - please do not continue to make various claims either way about the banned topic. Thanks

if you go to the post you will see that I EVEN put that last part emphatically…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13049906&postcount=281

I have not been following all of the thead lately…I just happened in -saw the assertion and noted what I noted…and noticed others had mentioned it so I too made reference to all.

Also I noted to those* opposed to the matter *as well - no only in that post - and elsewhere in the thread that such is not to be discussed.

Peace brother! …let us put this misunderstanding etc beneath* the cloud of forgetting *…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I did not attack.

And if you will read again the post I referred in it to both those for or against the topic. That it was unfair for them to mention such as well…And at the end I made a reference at the end that such is for everyone…

if you go to the post you will see that I EVEN put that last part emphatically…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13049906&postcount=281

I have not been following all of the thead lately…I just happened in -saw the assertion and noted what I noted…and noticed others had mentioned it so I too made reference to all.

Also I noted to those* opposed to the matter *as well - no only in that post - and elsewhere in the thread that such is not to be discussed.

Peace brother! …let us put this misunderstanding etc beneath* the cloud of forgetting *…

And who made you the banned topic police ?

Yeah, I’m putting below the cloud of forgetting and should never have gotten involved with this thread for I knew how it would go.

Jim

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Contemplative prayer is a fixed gaze at Jesus. He looks at me and I at Him. To best prepare to engage in contemplation St Teresa told her nuns to meditate on the passion of Jesus Christ

The prayer form taught by Meninger Keating and Pennington is not contemplative but c-------- prayer. The goal of this type of prayer is the same as Buddhism and Hinduism,a kundalini awakening. Since a kundalini awakening can be achieved through shaktipat as well as tantric sodomy I have great reservations as to what one is actually dealing with. I will have to just leave it at that and take my leave.I truly hope I did not offend anyone here. Peace and God bless

Carol

I asked for your personal opinion and not a snippet from the CCC, on what contemplative prayer is, whether you consider yourself contemplative, and what from Rohr — whom you claimed to have liked in the past – have you personally found beneficial.

You give me one sentence from the CCC page I linked now several times.

And then a regurgitation of the same effluent you produced prior and that we’ve all heard hundreds of times that had nothing about Rohr – and I specifically asked about Rohr just to keep you from trying this. And you did anyway; maybe you don’t have the mental agility I gave you credit for when it comes to this, but I’m not a testing expert nor can I diagnose that over the Internet. What I do know, is that fear will chemically condition your mind to “fight or flee” both physically and mentally. A fearful mind, when challenged, will “dig in” and refuse to listen to any other point of view.

I’m disappointed; I thought you’d at least make a better attempt to prove you know what you’re talking about and that you have any personal knowledge of Rohr’s work… and btw Rohr isn’t a banned topic and although this thread is not specifically about him, I can’t get you to quit dive bombing it with your noisy off-topic garbage.

If you can’t come clean and quit repeating the same insults with no basis, bringing up the banned topic, and proving repeatedly that you speak from a position with no credibility, at this point you are no longer interesting to me, and have proven nothing to contribute to the thread except noisy opposition. I guess that gives us a place to document some of the errors in your lies, which are nothing but the “hive mind” of divisive forces that are trying to prevent the Church from being united between the bishops and abbots. Rom 8:28 - “all things” for the good, right?

As OP I’m asking you to please either contribute something other than the same tripe, or please, like the author of the Cloud suggests, just go away and leave us in peace because you’re not likely to find it here for yourself.

MS