The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Bookcat]

God knows the Cloud is for those souls ready for it, whether they be beginners in your eyes or experts.

God feeds us where we are able to be fed.

It’s not up to you to discourage people who feel called to deeper levels of prayer and reading, such as the Cloud of Unknowing.

If they are not ready for the Cloud of Unknowing, they’ll have a hard time understanding it.

If they’re ready, it will feed them as God intends.

Jim

I stand by what I have written. A person who is just starting to pray is not the intended audience of the Cloud and it will cause them harm. The Author is clear on that. So many then run into all sorts of errors…one is not the best judge in ones own case …particularly if one is at the beginning of the Spiritual life. As even the famed Servant of God Fr. John Hardon SJ notes in his dictionary (Modern Catholic Dictionary) it is not for beginners but for those advanced in the Spiritual life (and I would add…for those so inclined to it…it is one approach among a myriad of Spiritual works of merit).

 

[cjforJesus]

Few people realize this writing was directed toward those practicing a monastic and a very ascetic lifestyle. I also believe it was written in the middle ages and was not discovered until centuries later.

It is an interesting work and very much in the same manner as other medieval writers. Very flowery beautiful language praising God and His mysteries.

Contemplative prayer is simply a fixed gaze at Jesus,and being with the One we know loves us and is ever merciful.

 

[Bookcat]

Contemplative prayer is simply a fixed gaze at Jesus,and being with the One we know loves us and is ever merciful.

Yes that can be one variation of contemplative prayer.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I stand by what I have written. A person who is just starting to pray is not the intended audience of the Cloud and it will cause them harm. The Author is clear on that. So many then run into all sorts of errors…one is not the best judge in ones own case …particularly if one is at the beginning of the Spiritual life. As even the famed Servant of God Fr. John Hardon SJ notes in his dictionary (Modern Catholic Dictionary) it is not for beginners but for those advanced in the Spiritual life (and I would add…for those so inclined to it…it is one approach among a myriad of Spiritual works of merit).

OK so it’s not for you, I get that.

Jim

 

[Robert_Sock]

I stand by what I have written. A person who is just starting to pray is not the intended audience of the Cloud and it will cause them harm. The Author is clear on that. So many then run into all sorts of errors…one is not the best judge in ones own case …particularly if one is at the beginning of the Spiritual life. As even the famed Servant of God Fr. John Hardon SJ notes in his dictionary (Modern Catholic Dictionary) it is not for beginners but for those advanced in the Spiritual life (and I would add…for those so inclined to it…it is one approach among a myriad of Spiritual works of merit).

“Ponder anew, what the almighty can do!”

I read that this type of contemplative prayer can be especially beneficial to those who have been away from the Church for a while, suggesting that a person need not have to be at an advanced level spiritually.

 

[cjforJesus]

Yes that can be one variation of contemplative prayer.

Well that statement came from the Catechism and is a rough quote from St Teresa of Avila.It seems very accurate. Too many now seem to equate contemplative prayer with trancelike states and mystical visions.

Very few also realize that before St Teresa reached a state of union she had been in the religious life for perhaps 30 years! Of course God can raise anyone to a mystical union with Him but the stages of ones prayer life are generally gradual with the purgative phase at times lasting many years.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There are people who have been praying discursive prayers all of their lives and are essentially, beginners, because they have not grown toward interior prayer. Often it’s because they were made to believe that it was only for others who are advanced in prayer, something they’ll never be.

Then there are others, who having be converted to recently to Jesus Christ, as so open to his grace that they advance very quickly, and they absorb the Cloud of Unknowing fully, because they have the experience that the author wrote about.

The bottom line to all this is that Contemplation is a gift from God. It’s not what we read, or the number of prayers we say, nor acts of piety we perform.

Contemplation comes from the blessings God bestows on the soul.

Regardless of how long a person’s experience at prayer is, it is always God who gives the grace necessary for contemplation and union with Him.

Do not let anyone tell you that this prayer is for the advance only and therefore not for you.

If God is calling to you towards it, you will be blessed, if not, you’ll not be attracted to it, but to other forms of prayer. Don’t be discouraged for there are people who prayer discursive prayer who advance in contemplation. St Teresa of Avila says so.

God leads, we follow, period.

Jim

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

We’re discussing this rather openly, which is against the author’s explicit directions.

That’s why I need to review the book. I don’t remember that so much as the part about only giving the book or allowing anyone to read it, if you believe they have a true desire to completely follow Jesus.

But now in the “information age” I consider this as a huge part of the Good News, as it has played out in my life stories. And I wish to shout from the rooftops and mountaintops whatever your preferred metaphor, “taste and see the goodness of the Lord” – I don’t know how to really boast of the Lord without my tongue twisting it into self-boasting.

That said, there is a lot of competition for people’s attention these days, so I’m counting on the spirit that motivated the author, will assist in getting seeds planted where they go. If someone maligns it, that gives us a chance to exercise our own non-response and Beatitude Attitude IMO.

That all said, I admit I don’t remember that rejoinder; I’ll look more into it so I can tell post hoc whether I “should have” according to the text. I believe it will bring people closer to God, so I offer any of my ego that “wants to tell somebody something they need to know” to the hopeful advantage that a good seed may find good ground, and add to the harvest.

 

[Bookcat]

OK so it’s not for you, I get that.

Jim

Funny.

This is a serious discussion. But ok - I am one who likes a joke too.

 

[cheezey]

Just wondering. Re: away from Church

and away from disciplined prayer?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty and in faith.

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we “gather up” the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

 

[Bookcat]

T

The bottom line to all this is that Contemplation is a gift from God. It’s not what we read, or the number of prayers we say, nor acts of piety we perform.

Such would be describing what has come to be called infused contemplation. One understanding of contemplation (and the Cloud is not simply about such). Contemplation is treated by various faithful authors and schools of Theology in various ways. But yes all things are a gift from God even if not infused.

 

[Bookcat]

“Ponder anew, what the almighty can do!”

I read that this type of contemplative prayer can be especially beneficial to those who have been away from the Church for a while, suggesting that a person need not have to be at an advanced level spiritually.

No. Not the Cloud. They would read it -and being ungrounded in the Church -head off into who knows what understanding!

Though yes it could happen that a person who is away from the Church *could * pick it up and think…oh this is interesting…and that might start them to turn towards the Church. But it is not a book I am going to hand them and say “here” this will will help…

 

[cjforJesus]

There are people who have been praying discursive prayers all of their lives and are essentially, beginners, because they have not grown toward interior prayer. Often it’s because they were made to believe that it was only for others who are advanced in prayer, something they’ll never be.

Then there are others, who having be converted to recently to Jesus Christ, as so open to his grace that they advance very quickly, and they absorb the Cloud of Unknowing fully, because they have the experience that the author wrote about.

The bottom line to all this is that Contemplation is a gift from God. It’s not what we read, or the number of prayers we say, nor acts of piety we perform.

Contemplation comes from the blessings God bestows on the soul.

Regardless of how long a person’s experience at prayer is, it is always God who gives the grace necessary for contemplation and union with Him.

Do not let anyone tell you that this prayer is for the advance only and therefore not for you.

If God is calling to you towards it, you will be blessed, if not, you’ll not be attracted to it, but to other forms of prayer. Don’t be discouraged for there are people who prayer discursive prayer who advance in contemplation. St Teresa of Avila says so.

God leads, we follow, period.

Jim

St Teresa said contemplation is a fixed gaze at Jesus. She advised her nuns that meditating on the passion of Jesus is a good way to begin to comprehend the great love He has for us.

Contemplative union is not the same as a kundalini awakening or nirvana.It is also not the same as the spiritual hug called baptism of Holy Spirit. It is something very private between a person and God.

 

[Bookcat]

Well that statement came from the Catechism and is a rough quote from St Teresa of Avila…

And a good one.

Yes *one *statement among many in the Catechism.

In reading that section of the CCC one will find various influences various aspects that are represented there.

And yes she is one faithful author and represents one school of thought in the Church.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No. Not the Cloud. They would read it -and being ungrounded in the Church -head off into who knows what understanding!

Though yes it could happen that a person who is away from the Church *could * pick it up and think…oh this is interesting…and that might start them to turn towards the Church. But it is not a book I am going to hand them and say “here” this will will help…

Primarily, I need to express clearly who should try contemplative prayer. Some personalities will find contemplation more suitable than others. It is a personal choice. Appropriate candidates are individuals with a sincere desire to forsake the world. It does not matter that such a seeker may have been a habitual sinner earlier in life. Everyone who has the desire should devote attention to this exercise.
-Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 27

 

[cjforJesus]

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty and in faith.

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we “gather up” the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

2720 The Church invites the faithful to regular prayer: daily prayers, the Liturgy of the Hours, Sunday Eucharist, the feasts of the liturgical year.

2721 The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

2722 Vocal prayer, founded on the union of body and soul in human nature, associates the body with the interior prayer of the heart, following Christ’s example of praying to his Father and teaching the Our Father to his disciples.

2723 Meditation is a prayerful quest engaging thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. Its goal is to make our own in faith the subject considered, by confronting it with the reality of our own life.

2724 Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in His mystery.

 

[Bookcat]

Primarily, I need to express clearly who should try contemplative prayer. Some personalities will find contemplation more suitable than others. It is a personal choice. Appropriate candidates are individuals with a sincere desire to forsake the world. It does not matter that such a seeker may have been a habitual sinner earlier in life. Everyone who has the desire should devote attention to this exercise.
-Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 27

You need to read more of his introduction…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St Teresa said contemplation is a fixed gaze at Jesus. She advised her nuns that meditating on the passion of Jesus is a good way to begin to comprehend the great love He has for us.

Contemplative union is not the same as a kundalini awakening or nirvana.It is also not the same as the spiritual hug called baptism of Holy Spirit. It is something very private between a person and God.

I think you’re confusing what St Teresa called. "mental prayer,’ with “contemplation.”

They’re not the same.

Fact is. St Teresa never used the term, Contemplative Prayer," nor “Contemplation.”

Neither did St John of the Cross.

Both used terms like “higher levels of interior prayer,” “union with Christ,” or “spiritual marriage.”

The terms for what they defined, “contemplation,” came later, but it is what they taught.

Mental prayer on the other hand, is praying with the focus of the soul being in the presence of God.

St Teresa taught that mental prayer is what must be done whether we’re praying verbal prayers in the office, the rosary or quiet interior prayer.

There is infused contemplation which God bestows on the soul, and acquired contemplation which a soul, after being open to contemplation and who has advanced in prayer, will receive the graces of contemplation.

There is not time line or meter in the experience of prayer which will determine where you are.

The only place you are is in the now, which is where God is, and this is God’s will for you.

Jim

 

[cjforJesus]

I think you’re confusing what St Teresa called. "mental prayer,’ with “contemplation.”

They’re not the same.

Fact is. St Teresa never used the term, Contemplative Prayer," nor “Contemplation.”

Neither did St John of the Cross.

Both used terms like “higher levels of interior prayer,” “union with Christ,” or “spiritual marriage.”

The terms for what they defined, “contemplation,” came later, but it is what they taught.

Mental prayer on the other hand, is praying with the focus of the soul being in the presence of God.

St Teresa taught that mental prayer is what must be done whether we’re praying verbal prayers in the office, the rosary or quiet interior prayer.

There is infused contemplation which God bestows on the soul, and acquired contemplation which a soul, after being open to contemplation and who has advanced in prayer, will receive the graces of contemplation.

There is not time line or meter in the experience of prayer which will determine where you are.

The only place you are is in the now, which is where God is, and this is God’s will for you.

Jim

From women of grace Catholic website

" The Cloud was meant for only those people who are very advanced along the spiritual path, which explains why it has become so distorted by New Agers who are trying to use “brute force” to make themselves into their own version of a contemplative."

I think the same spiritual caution was advised by St Louis Demontfort when beginners attempt to read His treatise and books about Mary.If one is not truly grounded in the Catholic faith they could be greatly confused and misinterpret what is written.