The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Mystical_Seeker]

+JMJ+

I propose that the way to resolve the controversy here is answering a series of questions. I would appreciate it that everyone who has participated here will answer.

1. If I add acquired contemplation or even the “banned topic” to a robust traditional spirituality (from here on defined as following the Precepts of the Catholic Church with regular Sacraments, private Christian meditation, pious readings, and/or traditional devotions with Church approved mortification for laity like the liturgical fasts), is that alright?

I doubt anyone will object to this. Personally, I can find no problems with this.

Ok, by your definition. Personally I think that a “robust” spirituality would include at least a prayer form that the CCC states “should” be included in Christian prayer. But I understand why you are setting it up this way.

So if you want to designate, for this thread only, that “robust traditional” means the Church precepts, plus those particular devotions stereotypical of a group who rejects, avoids, or is completely unaware of the entire apophatic tradition of the Church, that works for me rhetorically.

But it also reveals what I believe to be an unfortunate situation: that there are so many Catholics, and not just the “lukewarm” ones but those with much energy, are missing out on what could (arguably – obviously) be the most important part of their faith – actively advancing personal receptivity toward transforming Union.

1. If I find that I am finding more satisfaction with acquired contemplation and/or the “banned topic” can I cut down on the traditional spiritual practices? And if so, which?

I think here is where there will be problems with many of the “traditional” posters here. However, it will be an inevitable question that will pop up since all of us have only so much time per day.

“Finding more satisfaction” is kind of a consumer-culture way to phrase it. It can be boring, dry, scary, OR very satisfying. The point to this prayer is not a sense one gets while doing this. Some do it for years before they really start to notice any impact. Just because something feels very pious and satisfying, that doesn’t distinguish whether it is the spirit or the ego that rejoices.

For me, when in context with the teachings and coaching I was receiving, it was clear pretty early on that this was touching an aspect of spiritual life that could transform me in a way that nothing else even came close to threatening to do so. So luckily I was able to notice its positive effects much quicker than that especially since at the time I had little patience for sitting still.

You can always reduce any of your “spiritual practices” in excess of the precepts, although I might prefer to consider them “religious practices” rather than “spiritual practices” that may or may not provide any “solid food” for your spirit. If these practices are “required” for a “robust traditional spirituality” to the extent they can’t make room for a few minutes of sitting silently, then these practices are just as likely to keep a person from God as they are to bring a person to God. Like fasting while the bridegroom is there.

Would you drop going to Eucharistic Adoration because of your busy prayer regimen? If you would drop contemplative prayer because you don’t have time, but will still go to adoration where you are not required to do anything at all (and in fact many do their contemplative prayer during adoration and good chance many traditional practitioners do if they let their inner or outer voice take a break during the hour), then right there I can show that it really isn’t about not having enough time of day but priorities and choice.

If it’s contemplative prayer you would drop first, then consider this CCC paragraph:

2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty and in faith.

2719 Contemplative prayer is a communion of love bearing Life for the multitude, to the extent that it consents to abide in the night of faith. The Paschal night of the Resurrection passes through the night of the agony and the tomb - the three intense moments of the Hour of Jesus which his Spirit (and not “the flesh [which] is weak”) brings to life in prayer. We must be willing to “keep watch with [him] one hour.”

So there you have it. The Church equates missing out on contemplative prayer, as failing to “keep watch with Him for an hour.” Sounds pretty harsh to me, but I cannot for the life of my understand how Catholics can claim to be CCC-led and yet actively reject what the CCC actively promotes. All the while considering themselves “orthodox” even above those who support the CCC assertions? I don’t see how to bypass the cognitive dissonance that would cause…

Clearly they would never consider Jesus may have been referring to just this mindset in Mt 23…

Personally, even the “banned topic” can be done as long as there is still the liturgical mortifications as well as meditations and/or pious readings. Books such as The Cloud of Unknowing recommend as much. If one has a spiritual advisor so much the better.

No disagreement there…

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

+JMJ+
3. Is it OK to just do acquired contemplation or the “banned topic” on top of the Precepts of the Catholic Church?

Now this is where I think everybody will be up for arms for both sides.

Personally, no, unless the spiritual advisor says so. There is a reason why the traditional devotions are “traditional”: they work. Besides, even the old books from which modern proponents of acquired contemplation and the “banned topic” draw support from also discourage this.

What do you mean “they work”? Are you suggesting that we can achieve union with Jesus by our own works? Considering 1 Cor 13 and all of the things listed there, what part of those works proves that one has love?

Or are you saying that if you do these things, you will achieve union with God, and get to heaven? If these practices are believed to be tickets to heaven, then it’s clear why they are so well-attended. And if they are, one of my reasons to live is to expose Catholics to these treasures that are inexplicably so well hidden.

1. Is it OK to start my spiritual journey with acquired contemplation and/or the “banned topic”?

I think again most will say here (including me) as: no.

I don’t know about “most” but you say that. But you bring up a good point, and what is the “spiritual journey” and when does it begin? Some authors consider a first and second half of Christian life – the first part being largely formation of faith and morality, and the second half more of a journey to seek divine union. So in a way, all of the active practices can go into this heading of “starting” the journey.

On the other hand, a baby does not need contemplative prayer because it doesn’t have any societal programming into the false “self” that Jesus says we must deny. So I see it kind of as a cyclical thing. A baby starts out great. Then it gets socialized into the world and becomes unwitting participant in its Bad Habits. Then you need religion to fix it. First with basic concepts and morality, then with just seeking the Lord.

My own vote is “yes” because frankly “contemplative prayer” is nothing more or less than trying to achieve a state of mind modeling “receptivity” like Mary did. Say “yes” to the Lord and let Him in, without his having to navigate around a bunch of willful mental activity.

Also, “sitting quietly” has itself become feared and despised. Everybody has to have a noise or entertainment source these days. God forbid they actually sit quietly and encounter something in their thoughts without Lady Gaga to chase it away with her siren songs.

Now why these questions? It seems to me that threads like this one degenerate to fighting between two main camps: “the banned topic is harmful” and “the banned topic, like acquired contemplation, is not harmful, but rather an advanced method”. There would be further positions somewhere in between, like “the banned topic is not harmful and can even be done by spiritual beginners.” I, personally, think of it as an incomplete technique. I say this because the “banned topic” to me looks like The Cloud of Unknowing with the preparatory and cautionary warning chapters removed.

Notice that I didn’t bring up anything about the “banned topic” until such time as references were made. “Contemplative prayer” is clearly and objectively an important part of Catholic prayer, as stated in the CCC, whether any given Catholic wants to admit it or not.

But this could be progress. Used to be, some self-identified “orthodox traditional” Catholics, would inevitably chastised the ‘banned topic’ by claiming that it does NOT follow the Cloud. So the fact that you are connecting the ‘banned topic’ and The Cloud actually feels like a bit of a win for me…

I actually used the “Cloud” with intent to have a reference that would not be controversial, and combine it with contemplative prayer as described by the CCC, with the knowledge there is also nothing controversial about whether Catholic should be doing it other than that due to some form of insanity I haven’t yet figured out.

But in this thread, the Cloud itself is being maligned as being suspicious – when in previous threads I’ve seen it was accepted by all involved as an authentic and important work of Catholic mysticism. Maybe more references to the ‘banned topic’ would have saved the Cloud from taking the fall? So maybe the objections to contemplative prayer are spreading and the sources are falling out of favor? That could actually mean progress. At some point we will run out of straw men and have to confront the fact of whether our claims to be followers of Catholic teachings, actually include humble acceptance of the teachings of the CCC.

Anyways, it seems to me that the way to solve the controversy is the compromise between where those of the “harmful camp” would feel comfortable that the supposed harm of the “banned topic” will be offset by traditional spirituality, and where the “advanced method” camp would say one is advanced enough spiritually to practice it.

Of course there will be some who will object with this kind of thinking, in that if the “banned topic” is “harmful” then any practice of it is imprudent. This kind of thinking I strongly disagree: this is akin to saying the the practice of the banned topic is a sin, which as far as I know nobody as of yet has considered it as such.

Yes I see it mostly the same way here about how these go. But actually yes I’ve seen the “banned topic” being equated to sinfulness and all sorts of scary words thrown at it like “New Age” and “Buddhist” and “opening a door to the occult” for example. :banghead:

I’m glad this thread has gone on this long, and I have learned from it. I really appreciate those such as yourself sharing what you know. Even if I disagree, I still learn from you.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi MS, Good morning.

I have The Cloud of Unknowing sitting on my shelf of “next” reads. Perhaps I should pick it up. I haven’t read a lot of this thread, but it has been very informative. Thanks!

Not to diverge, but I do want to note some things here:

I don’t know about “most” but you say that. But you bring up a good point, and what is the “spiritual journey” and when does it begin? Some authors consider a first and second half of Christian life – the first part being largely formation of faith and morality, and the second half more of a journey to seek divine union. So in a way, all of the active practices can go into this heading of “starting” the journey.

To me, the whole of life is formation of faith and morality. The “first half” is one where we are essentially slaves to our nature, we are compelled to want wealth, status, etc. We are slaves to our grudges, often holding onto such. All of these enslavements have their purposes.

The second half is when we let go of all of these, but to me it is not about denying them, but by observing them. In prayer, we can observe these compulsions; and then we are not our compulsions. In prayer, we can take a step back.

On the other hand, a baby does not need contemplative prayer because it doesn’t have any societal programming into the false “self” that Jesus says we must deny. So I see it kind of as a cyclical thing. A baby starts out great. Then it gets socialized into the world and becomes unwitting participant in its Bad Habits. Then you need religion to fix it. First with basic concepts and morality, then with just seeking the Lord.

Yes, a baby starts out great. The unwitting participants get bad habits, but they are still great! Indeed, Adam (metaphorically) was still great, regardless of his defiance. It is our judging that says otherwise. It is with the “false self” that we see the lack of “greatness”.

Note: I am not saying that there is no need for a “fix it”.

Humanity is beautiful, is it not?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Father Keating is one of several people whose work directly and substantially contributed to my healing. So people like me get tired of having to do through eight tons of mud slinging every time we want to say something about some of what we may see as those spiritual teachers who are calling us to more than just obedience to an institutional system, but an actual personal encounter with Christ. So I am glad it is banned; it’s hard enough to have a reasonable discussion on just about any topic – but with this one there are obvious strong political factions operating in the Church (I’m thinking of the famous Hillary “vast right wing conspiracy” – haha) which are insanely opposed to these people, and have used objectively false reporting and fear to peddle their intellectual wares.]

I see your point. Thanks for that.
It is also sad for me to see the “mudslinging”.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

1. Is it OK to just do acquired contemplation or the “banned topic” on top of the Precepts of the Catholic Church?

Now this is where I think everybody will be up for arms for both sides.

Personally, no, unless the spiritual adviser says so. There is a reason why the traditional devotions are “traditional”: they work. Besides, even the old books from which modern proponents of acquired contemplation and the “banned topic” draw support from also discourage this.

Spiritual advisers themselves will be split on this issue. But a balanced approach is usually best in most things. I am who who, as I have said, requires acquired contemplation and there are many ways to approach it. It balances me, anchors me in Christ, dare I say centers me in Christ, gives me energy, gives me deep peace, washes away anxieties. If I miss a few days is certainly diminishes the quality of my life as it is like fasting from God.

1. Is it OK to start my spiritual journey with acquired contemplation and/or the “banned topic”?

I think again most will say here (including me) as: no.

Now why these questions? It seems to me that threads like this one degenerate to fighting between two main camps: “the banned topic is harmful” and “the banned topic, like acquired contemplation, is not harmful, but rather an advanced method”. There would be further positions somewhere in between, like “the banned topic is not harmful and can even be done by spiritual beginners.” I, personally, think of it as an incomplete technique. I say this because the “banned topic” to me looks like The Cloud of Unknowing with the preparatory and cautionary warning chapters removed.

This is a difficult question because I was baptized as an infant and attended Catholic grade school. I had all the beginner formation back in the traditional 50’s and 60’s. But nothing came alive for me until I started contemplation in the 70’s. What is a beginner? I would say that even with the groundwork of beginner formation it was contemplation that stirred a new beginning. I would say do not impede the Holy Spirit. Some are called to it without even seeking it. Others discover it as the fulfillment of their spiritual practices and even as the jewel of them.

Look for the fruits.

 

[Bookcat]

the ‘banned topic’ :

Referring to the “banned topic” and making assertions like it represents the Cloud etc etc etc IS discussing the topic.

It is NOT the letters them selves that is all that is banned it is not just the use of those 2 words… it is ALL discussion. Substituting the words “banned topic” is not a way to get round that…One might honestly think such is being observant of the rule but it though is not.

So let us all leave entirely that topic.

Thanks

As I noted

If someone does a drive by claim - an assertion - I note that such is not to be done for others cannot then come in any say “it is not so”. They cannot discuss it and dispute the claim.

It would also be not correct- fair- for someone who was “contra” the subject to make an assertion of negative nature (or post say some anti- website or something). And then mention -oh it is banned…I will leave it there (they can indeed have all the good intentions in the world but then the effect is that the assertion will just have to stand without discussion…for it is indeed banned).

Neither those in favor or those not in favor or those who do not care either way - ought to bring the matter up. And that includes short references or assertions either pro or con.

 

[InLight247]

Yet this man openly presided at a gay wedding affirming the disorder. How can one claim to be a contemplative who has intimate union with God and support sodomy? To me this is one of the biggest contradictions I have seen in researching this.

I do not know about the particular priest you are talking about. But you raised a valid question and so far I have not seen any answer to it. I am sure there are people who **claim **to be contemplative but support gay and sodomy, not only support, but even promote.

Contemplation leads us to holiness. Sodomy is a grave sin . Advocating grave sin is far from holiness. Would St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila support sodomy? Would any saints support sodomy? The answer is obvious. Therefore, you have your conclusion.

 

[Robert_Sock]

“In a mysterious way, your contemplation of God helps others even as it helps you.”
–Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 3

This is a profound statement with deep implications.

 

[parishioner]

But nothing came alive for me until I started contemplation in the 70’s.

There is a Carmelite priest, Fr. Ernest Larkin, who wrote a book telling of similar experiences. amazon.com/Contemplative-Prayer-Today-Christian-Meditation/dp/1933182555

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Referring to the “banned topic” and making assertions like it represents the Cloud etc etc etc IS discussing the topic.

It is NOT the letters them selves that is all that is banned it is not just the use of those 2 words… it is ALL discussion. Substituting the words “banned topic” is not a way to get round that…One might honestly think such is being observant of the rule but it though is not.

Thanks

As I noted

My posts do perhaps illustrate the strength the polarization of feelings and opinions, and thus address the meta-question about why there even is a ‘banned topic’. But you are right, and I’m ready to take my “eggshell dancing” shoes off. They can really hurt but they look Totally Comfortable for Me on stages with ample smoke and mirrors!

Note that when it comes to my ego, “Amen” and “Omega” are completely differrent concepts.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

“In a mysterious way, your contemplation of God helps others even as it helps you.”
–Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 3

This is a profound statement with deep implications.

Definitely – the real Good Fruit of the prayer is not based on the sensations orr thoughts that arise during the prayer.

 

[christofirst]

"How perilous it is for those at the start of their turning to God when they leave too soon the common prayer laid down by the holy church, and give themselves entirely to meditation"
From the *Scale of Perfection *by Walter Hilton, a 14th century contemporary of the author of The Cloud of Unknowing.

I wonder how many people actually do this? It seems to me if a person is looking to somehow bypass the traditional prayer of the Church in favor of exclusive meditation or contemplative prayer, they will likely not persevere, though I could be wrong. Fidelity to contemplation is no easier than fidelity to any other way of prayer, and if someone thinks they will somehow find an easier way or a “shortcut to the top” through attempts at contemplation, they will soon be disappointed and look for something else when the going gets tough.

The idea of replacing other forms of prayer such as vocal, discursive or liturgical prayer exclusively with meditation or contemplation is unimaginable for me. Maybe so for others, but in my experience it is never one or the other, it is both in balance.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

"How perilous it is for those at the start of their turning to God when they leave too soon the common prayer laid down by the holy church, and give themselves entirely to meditation"
From the *Scale of Perfection *by Walter Hilton, a 14th century contemporary of the author of The Cloud of Unknowing.

I wonder how many people actually do this? It seems to me if a person is looking to somehow bypass the traditional prayer of the Church in favor of exclusive meditation or contemplative prayer, they will likely not persevere, though I could be wrong. Fidelity to contemplation is no easier than fidelity to any other way of prayer, and if someone thinks they will somehow find an easier way or a “shortcut to the top” through attempts at contemplation, they will soon be disappointed and look for something else when the going gets tough.

The idea of replacing other forms of prayer such as vocal, discursive or liturgical prayer exclusively with meditation or contemplation is unimaginable for me. Maybe so for others, but in my experience it is never one or the other, it is both in balance.

This reminds me of another quote my wife likes, referenced in Song of Songs in three different chapters:

Song of Songs 3:5
“I adjure you, Daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles and the does of the field, Do not awaken or stir up love until it is ready.”

I don’t know what the means, or the source of the book, but maybe the author is concerned that meditation on things we know too little about or without the proper background, could end up leading to false ideas and even worse, increase in pride – as we think that by thinking about something that means we are closer to it when in fact it may not plus we may be thinking about the wrong facts? Cognitive psychology tells us that meditation, or more directly “levels of processing” allows for memories to become better encoded and retrieved. So if you’re going to ponder the wrong thing, maybe better not to have pondered at all without some additional guidance?

That could be another reason that contemplative prayer is for everyone regardless of their state, according to the Church, although the Cloud itself is not – according to its author. The Cloud is more than a text on a form of prayer, but to me it’s almost a kind of a manic rant, if you will, by somebody apparently doing a “King David dance” and wanting to record salient details for future readers. The author has IMO, and I can get with it especially after receiving the healing that I did – that the doctors told me not to expect – as I want to shout from the rooftops, “taste and see the Goodness of the Lord”. That’s just my imagination, though.

During contemplative prayer, one does not make an effort to build ideas, but to let go of them. So it does not share that problem. Thanks for the info!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

"How perilous it is for those at the start of their turning to God when they leave too soon the common prayer laid down by the holy church, and give themselves entirely to meditation"
From the *Scale of Perfection *by Walter Hilton, a 14th century contemporary of the author of The Cloud of Unknowing.

I wonder how many people actually do this? It seems to me if a person is looking to somehow bypass the traditional prayer of the Church in favor of exclusive meditation or contemplative prayer, they will likely not persevere, though I could be wrong. Fidelity to contemplation is no easier than fidelity to any other way of prayer, and if someone thinks they will somehow find an easier way or a “shortcut to the top” through attempts at contemplation, they will soon be disappointed and look for something else when the going gets tough.

The idea of replacing other forms of prayer such as vocal, discursive or liturgical prayer exclusively with meditation or contemplation is unimaginable for me. Maybe so for others, but in my experience it is never one or the other, it is both in balance.

I don’t think anyone advocates replacing other forms of prayer such as vocal, discursive or liturgical prayer exclusively with meditation or contemplation. That would include Mass and LOTH. And yes, fidelity to contemplation is no easier than fidelity to any other way of prayer. Mystical Seeker pointed that out by quoting the CCC “One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter.” Perhaps it is the dryness that can be interpreted as emptiness that scares some away.

 

[Bookcat]

]"…one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter."

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/difficulties-prayer

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/finding-time-prayer

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/fidelity-and-perseverence-prayer

---

frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

 

[DBT]

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/difficulties-prayer

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/finding-time-prayer

frjacquesphilippe.com/theme/fidelity-and-perseverence-prayer

---

frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

Thank you for the link Bookcat!

I recently had the opportunity to hear Fr. Jacques speak (through an interpreter) at our Carmelite monastery on his recent book on St. Therese called “The Way of Trust and Love.” What a delightful, prayerful man!

My wife teases me from time to time that all my Carmelite books just give her a headache … but she took to Father Jacques like a fish to water.

Dave

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for the link Bookcat!

I recently had the opportunity to hear Fr. Jacques speak (through an interpreter) at our Carmelite monastery on his recent book on St. Therese called “The Way of Trust and Love.” What a delightful, prayerful man!

My wife teases me from time to time that all my Carmelite books just give her a headache … but she took to Father Jacques like a fish to water.

Dave

Yes he brings in a good deal of your Brothers and Sisters into his books…but I will note for readers that his works are not per se “Carmelite”.

He is indeed an excellent, faithful and profound writer.

 

[christofirst]

Thank you for the link Bookcat!

I recently had the opportunity to hear Fr. Jacques speak (through an interpreter) at our Carmelite monastery on his recent book on St. Therese called “The Way of Trust and Love.” What a delightful, prayerful man!

My wife teases me from time to time that all my Carmelite books just give her a headache … but she took to Father Jacques like a fish to water.

Dave

There’s a lot to be said for finding an author or teacher that speaks to you. The writings of a great saint or contemporary author might come highly recommended, but in my experience if there is no connection there will likely be little fruit in reading them.

As far as recent spiritual writers go, I too have found much good in the writings of Fr. Jacques Philippe or Thomas Dubay, but also in the writings of the Cistercians from Snowmass, John Main, and yes, Fr. Rohr as well. It kind of saddens me that we cannot discuss some of them freely here, but then I came here late after the ban was put in place. To suggest that one author is better than another simply because they can be discussed here while the other cannot doesn’t always seem right to me, but that is the impression having a ban gives.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for the link Bookcat!

I recently had the opportunity to hear Fr. Jacques speak (through an interpreter) at our Carmelite monastery on his recent book on St. Therese called “The Way of Trust and Love.” What a delightful, prayerful man!

My wife teases me from time to time that all my Carmelite books just give her a headache … but she took to Father Jacques like a fish to water.

Dave

Yes he brings in a good deal of your Brothers and Sisters into his books…but I will note for readers that his works are not per se “Carmelite”.

He is indeed an excellent, faithful and profound writer.

That last link there is a nice interview with him.frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

and also video frjacquesphilippe.com/

 

[parishioner]

It kind of saddens me that we cannot discuss some of them freely here

I can see a good side to the ban. The author of the *Cloud *says at the very beginning that his teachings on contemplative prayer are not for everyone, and should not even be shared with everyone. Those who are truly called will find their own way.