The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Bookcat]

Thank you for the link Bookcat!

I recently had the opportunity to hear Fr. Jacques speak (through an interpreter) at our Carmelite monastery on his recent book on St. Therese called “The Way of Trust and Love.” What a delightful, prayerful man!

My wife teases me from time to time that all my Carmelite books just give her a headache … but she took to Father Jacques like a fish to water.

Dave

Yes he brings in a good deal of your Brothers and Sisters into his books…but I will note for readers that his works are not per se “Carmelite”…

He is indeed an excellent, faithful and profound writer.

That last link there is a nice interview with him.frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

and also video frjacquesphilippe.com/

 

[Bookcat]

I can see a good side to the ban. The author of the *Cloud *says at the very beginning that his teachings on contemplative prayer are not for everyone, and should not even be shared with everyone. Those who are truly called will find their own way.

The ban is not for the *Cloud of Unknowing *(which must be taken in the proper context and in its own right). Though as you note he notes a restriction himself on his work.

As I noted early on.

And yes the Cloud of Unknowing for those who approach it correctly (and not something for “beginners” really–heck the writer expressed as much in the opening of the book…) - understanding it as it was written and in the wider context of Spiritual Theology and the history of Contemplation and the Spiritual Life.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for the link Bookcat!

I recently had the opportunity to hear Fr. Jacques speak (through an interpreter) at our Carmelite monastery on his recent book on St. Therese called “The Way of Trust and Love.” What a delightful, prayerful man!

My wife teases me from time to time that all my Carmelite books just give her a headache … but she took to Father Jacques like a fish to water.

Dave

Yes he brings in a good deal of your Brothers and Sisters into his books…but I will note for readers that his works are not per se “Carmelite”…

He is indeed an excellent, faithful and profound writer.

That last link there is a nice interview with him.frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

and also video frjacquesphilippe.com/

 

[DBT]

There’s a lot to be said for finding an author or teacher that speaks to you. The writings of a great saint or contemporary author might come highly recommended, but in my experience if there is no connection there will likely be little fruit in reading them.

So true!

Even in Carmel, there are those who consider themselves John people, Teresa people, Therese people and so on. While I love them all for different reasons, my go to writer always has been Brother Lawrence. Coincidently, he and the author The Cloud never seem to make it off my night stand. As you say, finding a personal connection is very important!.

And good, modern commentaries really can help take the mystery out of things too. I’ll echo your recommendation for Fr. Dubay and Fr. Jacques … and add Susan Muto and Fr. Foley, OCD to the list too!

Dave

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You can read all the books you want, and still get no where unless you engage in contemplative prayer and open yourself to Christ dwelling within.

He is the source of contemplation and the spiritual books will confirm the truth in your prayer, but can never replace the experience of union with Christ.

I believe it was in his book. “Western Myticism,” by Dom Cuthbert Butle, that the author wrote of how those who experience contemplation, will not be able to explain the experience, for it is so deep and so profound, it’s beyond words.

So, the advice is to “pray” and be open to Christ dwelling within. It is at the center of your being where Christ dwells, that you will be given the transforming graces of love, which is the heart of union with him.

As the author of the could said and which I use for my signature, “God can not be grasped except through love.”

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Y"Western Myticism," by Dom Cuthbert Butle

Lost a letter

Butler.

 

[christofirst]

You can read all the books you want, and still get no where unless you engage in contemplative prayer and open yourself to Christ dwelling within.

He is the source of contemplation and the spiritual books will confirm the truth in your prayer, but can never replace the experience of union with Christ.

I believe it was in his book. “Western Myticism,” by Dom Cuthbert Butle, that the author wrote of how those who experience contemplation, will not be able to explain the experience, for it is so deep and so profound, it’s beyond words.

So, the advice is to “pray” and be open to Christ dwelling within. It is at the center of your being where Christ dwells, that you will be given the transforming graces of love, which is the heart of union with him.

As the author of the could said and which I use for my signature, “God can not be grasped except through love.”

Jim

What I often need, however, is encouragement, and in the absence of face-to-face spiritual direction, a book is often all I have to counteract my reluctance to prayer and the frequent feeling that this is getting me nowhere - its a waste of time. Many’s the time a good book has helped to snap me out of this way of thinking.

 

[DBT]

What I often need, however, is encouragement, and in the absence of face-to-face spiritual direction, a book is often all I have to counteract my reluctance to prayer and the frequent feeling that this is getting me nowhere - its a waste of time. Many’s the time a good book has helped to snap me out of this way of thinking.

What you describe is the purpose behind “spiritual reading” … one of the pillars in the practice of a Carmelite vocation, by the way. We don’t read for the sake of reading or to feed curiosity (one of the admonishments in The Cloud). Rather, we are to read prayerfully (lectio-like) … and in the service of prayer as you describe (encouragement/direction).

In my own case, I was a voracious reader in my early years. My desire for “head” knowledge was insatiable and nearly all-consuming. Now I’m content with a page or two a day … and almost always in search of “heart” knowledge.

Such is a transition I think many go through.

Dave

 

[parishioner]

Many’s the time a good book has helped to snap me out of this way of thinking.

I don’t know if my book would offer you the encouragement you need. So that I don’t do any self-promotion, send me a PM if you’d like to know the title.

 

[cjforJesus]

I do not know about the particular priest you are talking about. But you raised a valid question and so far I have not seen any answer to it. I am sure there are people who **claim **to be contemplative but support gay and sodomy, not only support, but even promote.

Contemplation leads us to holiness. Sodomy is a grave sin . Advocating grave sin is far from holiness. Would St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila support sodomy? Would any saints support sodomy? The answer is obvious. Therefore, you have your conclusion.

The authors views are very problematic IMHO.I have scoured some of his writings and though there is good solid doctrine in them he definitely opposes some Church teachings or at least is publicly skirting the issue. He agreed many years ago to not publicly promote gay lifestyle friendly organizations.

In one fairly recent writing though he claimed it is heresy to call GLBT individuals “intrinsically disordered”.That is a gross misinterpretation of what the catechism says in regards to the ACTS not the individuals.

This is an excerpt from the writing:
“The True Self, who we objectively are in God, is prior and superior to any issues of gender, culture or sexuality, which are all “accidental” to one’s foundational core as a child of God. This is why it is pure heresy to call a transgendered, gay or lesbian person “intrinsically disordered.” (The intrinsic foundation of the human person is given by God and untouchable by any human intervention whatsoever.) Gender is a combination of biology, psychology and personal history, which are all good and necessary entrance points to the temple, but spirituality is learning how to live in the temple itself (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). What makes spirituality precisely “spiritual” is that it connects us with the Core and the Center, not just the circumference; with the essence and not just the accidents”.- Fr Rohr

Contradictions of this sort disturb me and I have seen the same discord in regards to one of the original charismatics(Dusquene weekend) a brilliant professor who received a laying on of hands by a female pentecostal minister. Thankfully he returned to the Church before he passed away.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

There’s a lot to be said for finding an author or teacher that speaks to you. The writings of a great saint or contemporary author might come highly recommended, but in my experience if there is no connection there will likely be little fruit in reading them.

As far as recent spiritual writers go, I too have found much good in the writings of Fr. Jacques Philippe or Thomas Dubay, but also in the writings of the Cistercians from Snowmass, John Main, and yes, Fr. Rohr as well. It kind of saddens me that we cannot discuss some of them freely here, but then I came here late after the ban was put in place. To suggest that one author is better than another simply because they can be discussed here while the other cannot doesn’t always seem right to me, but that is the impression having a ban gives.

There was such a place, could be again. Maybe. Sort of. PM me for details if you want, and I’ll administer the Secret Handshake for entry into the old clubhouse.

Then again, I’m sure there are also other places…

MS

 

[underacloud]

For those interested in the works of St Theresa and St John of the Cross, and other writers in the mystical tradition, there is an excellent book I can recommend:

“The Fulfillment of All Desire” by Ralph Martin

As Bookcat has noted, many of the great saints who have written about the spiritual life have at times used different terms in different ways. Reading each of them in isolation can be very confusing. This book helps “decode” much of this and brings the writings of seven doctors of the Church into harmony - those doctors being - Augustine, Catherine of Siena, Therese of Liseux, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Francis DeSales, and Bernard of Clairvaux.

It is an excellent book to read before venturing further into reading the works of those seven doctors, and other works in the same tradition such as The Cloud of Unknowing.

 

[DBT]

A couple of passages from my own spiritual reading tonight that caught my attention. It seems what goes around comes around …
Privy Counseling:

In our own times (late 14th century!), is it so hard to believe that God still can and may touch all sorts of people with the grace of contemplative prayer in the same wonderful and unforeseen way (as He did in the past)? Is it really so strange that He should desire and actually do this? No, and I am convinced that God in His great goodness will continue to act as He wishes in those He chooses that in the end His goodness may be seen for what it is, to the astonishment of all the world

Privy Counseling:

But one who does not dare abandon himself to God and criticizes others who do manifests an inner emptiness. For either the evil one has robbed his heart of the loving confidence he owes to God and the spirit of good will he owes to his fellow Christians, or else he is not yet sufficiently steeped in gentleness and truth to be a real contemplative himself.

Dave

 

[fred_conty]

A couple of passages from my own spiritual reading tonight that caught my attention. It seems what goes around comes around …

Dave

Isn’t it really a special gift anyway to some? I know that more may become available to it if they exorcised the effort to dispose themselves for it, but in the end, isn’t it really a special gift to whom God choses and isn’t necessary for salvation?

 

[DBT]

Isn’t it really a special gift anyway to some? I know that more may become available to it if they exorcised the effort to dispose themselves for it, but in the end, isn’t it really a special gift to whom God choses and isn’t necessary for salvation?

Hi Fred -

My comments were really meant as a consolation for those lamenting the tenor of these forums 'lo these many years … but you bring up a good point.

First, everything is a gift when you get right down to it. Second, the type of contemplation discussed in this thread is of an acquired nature and not the infused that spiritual writers specifically refer to as a “gift” … meaning that it should not be pursued without the Lord first initiating. I’m speaking of the contemplation described so wonderfully in the CCC.

For those who truly desire such a path - and who have laid the necessary foundation - it would be a shame to continue waiting outside the door. For the Lord has already opened the door to you by virtue of simple desire. That is a core teaching of The Cloud.

Equally important in my eyes, we should have sympathy and pray for the many “rock throwers” who come here rather than argue with them. Such souls, through the multiplicity of their objections, only reveal their own lack of experience. I no longer get angry about it … for they know not what they do. This too is a core teaching from The Cloud.

Lastly, you are absolutely right … none of this is required for our salvation. It is but one of many paths the Lord opens for us to find Him in ever deeper union. The most important thing any of us can do in this regard is to be true to ourselves and how we have been individually called. For example, I should not strive so much to be a little St. John of the Cross … but to be the saint I am meant to be. And that too is a teaching from The Cloud.

My best to you!

Dave

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Hi Fred -

My comments were really meant as a consolation for those lamenting the tenor of these forums 'lo these many years …

Noted and appreciated.

 

[Bookcat]

First, everything is a gift when you get right down to it. Second, the type of contemplation discussed in this thread is of an acquired nature and not the infused that spiritual writers specifically refer to as a “gift” … meaning that it should not be pursued without the Lord first initiating. I’m speaking of the contemplation described so wonderfully in the CCC.

Yes tout est grace. All is grace. All is gift. Even existence. And apart from Jesus we can do nothing…

I would note though that I think one can find not only acquired contemplation in the Cloud of Unknowing discussed but perhaps infused. But not necessarily as your Father and Mother would discuss such - for the older approach to contemplation was not the same as the later 16th century approach…

Also “contemplation” or “contemplative prayer” as described in the Catechism - for clarification -is not infused. Or rather it is not only infused that is described there in the CCC.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Fred -

My comments were really meant as a consolation for those lamenting the tenor of these forums 'lo these many years … but you bring up a good point.

First, everything is a gift when you get right down to it. Second, the type of contemplation discussed in this thread is of an acquired nature and not the infused that spiritual writers specifically refer to as a “gift” … meaning that it should not be pursued without the Lord first initiating. I’m speaking of the contemplation described so wonderfully in the CCC.

For those who truly desire such a path - and who have laid the necessary foundation - it would be a shame to continue waiting outside the door. For the Lord has already opened the door to you by virtue of simple desire. That is a core teaching of The Cloud.

Equally important in my eyes, we should have sympathy and pray for the many “rock throwers” who come here rather than argue with them. Such souls, through the multiplicity of their objections, only reveal their own lack of experience. I no longer get angry about it … for they know not what they do. This too is a core teaching from The Cloud.

Lastly, you are absolutely right … none of this is required for our salvation. It is but one of many paths the Lord opens for us to find Him in ever deeper union. The most important thing any of us can do in this regard is to be true to ourselves and how we have been individually called. For example, I should not strive so much to be a little St. John of the Cross … but to be the saint I am meant to be. And that too is a teaching from The Cloud.

My best to you!

Dave

That is an insightfull explaination.

One thing that remains a mystery to me about the acquired is that it is really a prayer of silence of the soul in waiting for the special touch of God. And during that waiting period a person should place themselves in the state of love.

But I’ve always wondered how can a soul love when love requires an object of love, and the soul, during contemplation, has set itself in a thoughtless mode which seems to eliminate any possibility of an object of love? In short, it seems like this would be insurmountable difficulty. This is something that has alway been quite puzzeling.

There is something else about the Blessed Sacrament and being in his presence. There is the story about a man who sits there and when asked what he is doing, he says, “I am here, and Jesus is there.” And I have heard so often that this is contemplation or at least some form of it. As a song long ago said, “is that all there is?” If that is contemplation than we have a good number of contemplates in our parish in their hour of adoration. Again, I don’t mean to put this down as a form of great and loving faith. But contemplation… I don’t know. Which brings up another bend in the road.

Is it possible to think about the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and be in contemplation when contemplation is a prayer of quiet or peaceful silence. The mind is in a state of knowing Jesus thru faith when being in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Yet contemplation is to put out of the mind all thinking which I would think would include our knowing his presence in the Sacrament.

In saying all of this I don’t mean to put anything down but just airing out some of the curves in the road.

May the God of hope fill you with joy.

 

[DBT]

Yes tout est grace. All is grace. All is gift. Even existence. And apart from Jesus we can do nothing…

I would note though that I think one can find not only acquired contemplation in the Cloud of Unknowing discussed but perhaps infused. But not necessarily as your Father and Mother would discuss such - for the older approach to contemplation was not the same as the later 16th century approach…

Also “contemplation” or “contemplative prayer” as described in the Catechism - for clarification -is not infused. Or rather it is not only infused that is described there in the CCC.

Very good points Bookcat … thank you!

Yes, perhaps I tend to over generalize a bit in my descriptions. It’s hard to capture the essence of entire volumes in just a few sentences or paragraphs.

No single work should be pigeon-hold as only this or that. Certainly there are aspects of the infused in a work like The Cloud. My eyes tend to focus more on the acquired aspects, though, as that is what speaks to me most specifically. As an aside, perhaps the most important teaching for me personally is that of the purification of memory in St. John’s Ascent Book 3, Chapters 1-15. I look at The Cloud as a wonderful “how-to” guide to put that teaching in action … so I tend to speak from that perspective.

And yes I agree with you that the descriptions of contemplation in the CCC are by and large of the acquired nature.

Dave

 

[Bookcat]

And yes I agree with you that the descriptions of contemplation in the CCC are by and large of the acquired nature.

Dave

I would have to sit down and go line by line…to say how much reflects what kind or approach or use of terms etc. They did the right thing to tie together all those various treads.

They drew from the many riches from 2000 years …over which there were various approaches and schools of thought and differing uses even of the terms.

The approach etc of the ancients (where I tend to these days) differs from those of the reflex age of the 16th century and onwards.

Your brothers out there on Mt. Carmel would have approached things differently than your later writers.