The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Mystical_Seeker]

But what is one actually gazing at? An imagined image? The dark abyss before one’s eyes? Empty space?

For me, gazing isn’t a word I would have thought up right away, but I can imagine that I guess. For me it’s more like when I let go of thoughts and quit trying to notice them and think about them and judge whether or not I need to pay attention to them, etc. it’s could be a warm and fuzzy kind of a glow.

When I let go of paying attention to anything in particular, and am in a place that is safe where I don’t have to quick “grab it back” then it feels like a burden is letting up. “My yoke is easy and my burden, light” as suddenly just being alive is OK. It’s kind of like a cloud dissapates – or maybe a warm cloud comforts, I don’t know. It can be scary instead, but if you are ok with just letting that go, too, but by bit it can open up.

Like when a dog rolls on its back to show submissiveness, and maybe a belly rub? It’s an exciting time where you know that you are not chasing, burying or digging up bones, barking at strangers, or taking a bath. You just lay on your back and are so excited the master is there. Close your eyes and just anticipate – being in that mental state leaves me wide open for the Holy Spirit to come in and tickle my heart with His Truth and Guidance. My dog does it a lot better than I do; dogs are pack animals and they want a leader. I’m more like a cat; I want to do whatever I want – except they get away with it due to cuteness!

OK that’s great and all but that’s all sensations during the prayer. If I can “let go” of irrelevant cares while I’m doing active things, and if CP has helped me (and my “shadow” subconscious self maybe) learn not to be panicky because this or that thought has come to mind, then the fruits of contemplation can be extended to active work. It doesn’t even require taking a vow of silence IMO.

It seems to me about as dangerous as falling asleep. Even less since we remain alert keeping vigil to the subtle awareness of Christ present.

Yes, I agree. That’s why I just don’t get all this energy splitting hairs with some esoteric treatise on shades of gray in just exactly our state of mind during silent prayer, and if we believe this or that or don’t get it just right, then spirits from hell will come take me straight down Body and Soul. We must only buy this brand of empty box, never any other … smh.

Another reason it’s pretty clear we’re trying to define “love” and put it in a box. That’s nothing new since symbolic language was invented to exchange thoughts about it. And that’s great as long as we’re sharing ideas, but fear is optional.

 

[InLight247]

But what is one actually gazing at? An imagined image? The dark abyss before one’s eyes? Empty space?

A good question.

No, not an imagined image, there is no image. Not the dark abyss, not empty space either. The gaze is on the Beloved whom one so desires and thirsts for. This gaze comes from an intimacy.
How do you explain intimacy with God ? We cannot see God, how do we feel this intimacy?
Yet we do experience the intimacy with God. The internal gaze is in the same nature. I know it sounds very abstract. That is the best I can describe at the moment.

 

[simple_soul]

+JMJ+

Oh, sorry, a little clarification on terms then. “Apophatic theology” attempts to describe God by what He is not; therefore apophatic prayer and spirituality focuses on the experience of the Divine as ineffable. “Cataphatic theology”, on the other hand, attempts to describe God by what He is; therefore cataphatic prayer and spirituality focuses on the encounter of God as friend and master.

Because of the minimizing of the role of reason and the intellect in The Cloud of Unknowing and similar practices, the are considered apophatic: you try to go beyond what can be known about God and just rest in Him.

Aahh I believe that makes some sense.

Well any way it helps me understand better why St. Pope John Paul II might have admonished us to " be not afraid!" And what St. Theresa might have meant by finding an elevator to God by just throwing ourselves into His arms and what St. Faustina is saying with her “Jesus I Trust in you!”

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Hello nuntym -

I’m not sure anyone is saying “only” as much as “one among many” … but I suppose I could be wrong about that. Of course there are affirmative and negative approaches to this … as indicated in the broad and expansive descriptions we see in the CCC which were drawn from the Church’s long and rich mystical history. But since this is a thread on The Cloud, the negative has been emphasized. I’m sure the conversation would/could go quite different if the topic was on an Osuna, Teresa or Brother Lawrence … just to give a couple examples.

I understand that in this thread the via negativa is emphasized. However, there was an instance where it was inferred that one who was practicing traditional devotion was missing contemplation. I had to correct that mistake, which I have seen in other threads too, and even show that the traditional devotions are in fact contemplative in nature.

And certainly the type of devotions you listed previously, for many people, probably serve the same purpose as the spiritual writers who speak of the role of discursive meditation … the “door,” in the language of The Cloud, to contemplation.

Dave

Exactly

 

[DBT]

No, not an imagined image, there is no image. Not the dark abyss, not empty space either. The gaze is on the Beloved whom one so desires and thirsts for. This gaze comes from an intimacy.
How do you explain intimacy with God ? We cannot see God, how do we feel this intimacy?
Yet we do experience the intimacy with God. The internal gaze is in the same nature. I know it sounds very abstract. That is the best I can describe at the moment.

You said it quite well … and, yet, in “not” saying it you said it even better still
St. John of the Cross:

I do not think anyone who has not had such experience will understand this well. But, since the soul experiencing this is aware that what she has so sublimely experienced remains beyond her understanding, she calls it “I-don’t-know-what.” Since it is not understandable, it is indescribable, although, as I say, one may know what the experience of it is.

St. John of the Cross:

…you see this in holy souls, for they ordinarily bear in themselves an “I-don’t-know-what” of greatness and dignity. This causes awe and respect in others because of the supernatural effect diffused in such persons from their close and familiar conversation with God.

Dave

 

[InLight247]

You said it quite well … and, yet, in “not” saying it you said it even better still

Dave

Thanks Dave, for the quotes from St. John of the Cross. It is amazing you can always give us the right quotes in what we are discussing. I can read the Saints’ books several times but never remember exactly what they said.

And it is always a delight to know what I tried to express is well received by someone who I look up to.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

+JMJ+

Oh, sorry, a little clarification on terms then. “Apophatic theology” attempts to describe God by what He is not; therefore apophatic prayer and spirituality focuses on the experience of the Divine as ineffable. “Cataphatic theology”, on the other hand, attempts to describe God by what He is; therefore cataphatic prayer and spirituality focuses on the encounter of God as friend and master.

Because of the minimizing of the role of reason and the intellect in The Cloud of Unknowing and similar practices, the are considered apophatic: you try to go beyond what can be known about God and just rest in Him.

Not so much by what God is not as by what he is for which we have no words since words impose limitations.

God bless.

 

[simple_soul]

Not so much by what God is not as by what he is for which we have no words since words impose limitations.

God bless.

I believe this is a much better way of putting it. That makes so much more sense.

I believe I would also add that it is not so much as “minimizing” reason, but more like reason has grown to understand how limited we are in reasoning or understanding of God and His ways and reason then tells us we have to sit quietly and let God teach us so that He can help us understand Himself and His ways more deeply. Let’s face it, I believe we tend to taint how God speaks to us with our fallen natures reasoning. I believe and can speak from experience that this is probable why we find ourselves more like “reacting” verses “responding.”
The way I understand it is the more purely we gaze at God with the eyes of our heart and the more purely the eyes of our are the more our reason becomes more like God’s and not like the reasoning of this world the less reactive we will be and we will then be more responsive instead.

I hope that makes some sense.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Not so much by what God is not as by what he is for which we have no words since words impose limitations.

God bless.

I believe this is a much better way of putting it. That makes so much more sense.

I believe I would also add that it is not so much as “minimizing” reason, but more like reason has grown to understand how limited we are in reasoning or understanding of God and His ways and reason then tells us we have to sit quietly and let God teach us so that He can help us understand Himself and His ways more deeply. Let’s face it, I believe we tend to taint how God speaks to us with our fallen natures reasoning. I believe and can speak from experience that this is probable why we find ourselves more like “reacting” verses “responding.”
The way I understand it is the more purely we gaze at God with the eyes of our heart and the more purely the eyes of our are the more our reason becomes more like God’s and not like the reasoning of this world the less reactive we will be and we will then be more responsive instead.

I hope that makes some sense.

I’m so sorry I like using weird words like “ineffable” which means “too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words.”

 

[Michael_Mayo]

For me, gazing isn’t a word I would have thought up right away, but I can imagine that I guess. For me it’s more like when I let go of thoughts and quit trying to notice them and think about them and judge whether or not I need to pay attention to them, etc. it’s could be a warm and fuzzy kind of a glow.

When I let go of paying attention to anything in particular, and am in a place that is safe where I don’t have to quick “grab it back” then it feels like a burden is letting up. “My yoke is easy and my burden, light” as suddenly just being alive is OK. It’s kind of like a cloud dissapates – or maybe a warm cloud comforts, I don’t know. It can be scary instead, but if you are ok with just letting that go, too, but by bit it can open up.

Like when a dog rolls on its back to show submissiveness, and maybe a belly rub? It’s an exciting time where you know that you are not chasing, burying or digging up bones, barking at strangers, or taking a bath. You just lay on your back and are so excited the master is there. Close your eyes and just anticipate – being in that mental state leaves me wide open for the Holy Spirit to come in and tickle my heart with His Truth and Guidance. My dog does it a lot better than I do; dogs are pack animals and they want a leader. I’m more like a cat; I want to do whatever I want – except they get away with it due to cuteness!

OK that’s great and all but that’s all sensations during the prayer. If I can “let go” of irrelevant cares while I’m doing active things, and if CP has helped me (and my “shadow” subconscious self maybe) learn not to be panicky because this or that thought has come to mind, then the fruits of contemplation can be extended to active work. It doesn’t even require taking a vow of silence IMO.

Yes, I agree. That’s why I just don’t get all this energy splitting hairs with some esoteric treatise on shades of gray in just exactly our state of mind during silent prayer, and if we believe this or that or don’t get it just right, then spirits from hell will come take me straight down Body and Soul. We must only buy this brand of empty box, never any other … smh.

Another reason it’s pretty clear we’re trying to define “love” and put it in a box. That’s nothing new since symbolic language was invented to exchange thoughts about it. And that’s great as long as we’re sharing ideas, but fear is optional.

Wonderful images and post, Mystical Seeker. Your experience sounds a lot like me.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

A good question.

No, not an imagined image, there is no image. Not the dark abyss, not empty space either. The gaze is on the Beloved whom one so desires and thirsts for. This gaze comes from an intimacy.
How do you explain intimacy with God ? We cannot see God, how do we feel this intimacy?
Yet we do experience the intimacy with God. The internal gaze is in the same nature. I know it sounds very abstract. That is the best I can describe at the moment.

At the risk of sounding Twilight Zone, perhaps a dimension of mind, a kind of gazing and seeing that does not involve images… a deeper sense that is so subtle we seldom notice it because our other 5 senses are so bombarded by data and our attention is on so many thoughts and images related to them. A feel of intimacy, a capacity we have beyond senses, beyond thoughts…perhaps that is what spirit is, a deeper part of our soul that touches God always and yet we seldom are aware of that part of our being, so distracted by outer concerns.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

+JMJ+

Exactly. That is why I keep on saying that one must go through the traditional devotions of the Catholic Church before going to the apophatic practices: how will you know you are keeping vigil for and resting in Christ if you do not even know who He is? Falling asleep is not so dangerous when in a place of refuge, but how about in a forest or in the street?

Apophatic prayer wants to go beyond what can and is known about God. But that is the thing: “beyond” what is known. You have to go through what is known to go beyond it.

You are reminding me of St Bonaventure’s Journey of the Mind into God. We start with what is right in front of us. Traditional devotions are what kindle the desire. They keep us focused and out of the street.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

+JMJ+

I’m so sorry I like using weird words like “ineffable” which means “too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words.”

I like that word, too. It’s used a lot in my theology textbooks.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

At the risk of sounding Twilight Zone, perhaps a dimension of mind, a kind of gazing and seeing that does not involve images… a deeper sense that is so subtle we seldom notice it because our other 5 senses are so bombarded by data and our attention is on so many thoughts and images related to them. A feel of intimacy, a capacity we have beyond senses, beyond thoughts…perhaps that is what spirit is, a deeper part of our soul that touches God always and yet we seldom are aware of that part of our being, so distracted by outer concerns.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Fr Rohr is now giving meditations on The Cloud of Unknowing.

It’s interesting for the reason for the author being anonymous, according to Fr Rohr,

But the writer was also anonymous for practical reasons. Meister Eckhart had just been silenced by the Pope in 1329 for emphasizing independent study, thinking, and experience, to which this author was also committed. It took many generations for the Church to affirm the value of inner, personal experience.

Anyway, this is from The Cloud of Unknowing, which anyone even beginning contemplative prayer will grasp.

“let the wonderful transcendence and goodness of God teach you humility rather than the thought of your own sinfulness, for then your humility will be perfect. Attend more to the wholly otherness of God rather than to your own misery. And remember that those who are perfectly humble will lack nothing they really need, either spiritually or materially. God is theirs and [God] is all. Whoever possesses God, as the book attests, needs nothing else in this life” (Chapter 23, Paragraph 2).

Jim

 

[simpleas]

Fr Rohr is now giving meditations on The Cloud of Unknowing.

It’s interesting for the reason for the author being anonymous, according to Fr Rohr,

Anyway, this is from The Cloud of Unknowing, which anyone even beginning contemplative prayer will grasp.

Jim

I just read this from the daily emails I get, it is new to me

 

[houston1]

The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

How do the two connect? Father Meninger discusses the ancient mystical masterpiece the Cloud of the Unknowing, which so well exemplifies the apophatic tradition of the Church, and contemplative prayer, aka “resting in God” :heaven:

Fr William Meninger The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

See CCC 2700-2724 for more information about contemplative prayer.

I have read the Cloud of Unknowing and I highly recommend it to anyone who is drawn to contemplative prayer. (I know that the author dissuades the casual reader).

The author makes the point that we can only know God through love. To think or learn about God are good things but it’s not contemplation. To me, contemplation is a quiet and peaceful awareness of God’s presence and the desire to be close to Him…this is often wordless.

The Catechism, of course, gives a great discussion on contemplative prayer.

Thanks for sharing this.

houston1

 

[Michael_Mayo]

How many here have tried to silence the inner monologue? The thinking that is almost like our exterior voice but only interior. Sometimes it seems only a few seconds at a time before a word or image arises out of nowhere. But that seems to me to be the best way to listen, to be attentive.

 

[christofirst]

How many here have tried to silence the inner monologue? The thinking that is almost like our exterior voice but only interior. Sometimes it seems only a few seconds at a time before a word or image arises out of nowhere. But that seems to me to be the best way to listen, to be attentive.

I wonder how many here do* not *have what they consider to be an inner monologue going on in their minds most all of the time. I certainly do. Prayer has been called a conversation with God, but when I pray it usually still seems like a monologue - a monologue directed at God. I do try to silence the thoughts and monologue on a regular basis, but it is not easy. I tell myself I do not want to always be scattered and distracted, focused on anything but God, but my mind has a different agenda!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I wonder how many here do* not *have what they consider to be an inner monologue going on in their minds most all of the time. I certainly do. Prayer has been called a conversation with God, but when I pray it usually still seems like a monologue - a monologue directed at God. I do try to silence the thoughts and monologue on a regular basis, but it is not easy. I tell myself I do not want to always be scattered and distracted, focused on anything but God, but my mind has a different agenda!

I don’t. I find it very natural simply to be mindful of the presence of God in all things (not that God is all things, I am not a pantheist). However, I grew up (ages 5-18) in a Carmelite cloister (my aunt was the Mother Superior), so I learned contemplation at a very early age, and I am contemplative by nature. I am focused on God probably 90% of my waking hours, or at least some part of me is. It’s partly my nature, but I also realize how blessed I am to be able to focus on Christ this way. It is a gift from God or else I couldn’t do it.

When I was in school, people were asked if they were “Marys” or “Marthas.” I was the only Mary in the class, so I think distraction is a pretty common problem.

God rarely - very rarely - speaks to anyone in words any more, so we have to learn to listen with an open heart. The answers do come, but that heartfelt listening is, I think, necessary. I think the time before Mass is a good time to settle the mind and soul. I know a lot of people in my parish use that time to socialize, but we have fellowship after Mass. The people really should be preparing themselves for the reception of Christ in the Eucharist, but it’s not my job to tell them that, so I keep quiet and focus.