The Cloud of Unknowing

[jimmy]

Hello, I was looking at the library here at school and I saw “The Cloud of Unknowing”. Has anyone read this book? What do you think? On the first page, the author warns the reader,

I charge thee and I beseech thee, with as much power and virtue as the bond of charity is sufficient to suffer, whatsoever thou be that this book shalt have in possession, either by property, either by keeping, by bearing as messenger, or else by borrowing, that in as much as in thee is by will and advisement, neither thou read it, nor write it, nor speak it, nor yet suffer it be read, written, or spoken, of any or to any but if it be of such one, or to such one, that hath by thy supposing in a true will and by an whole intent purposed him to be a perfect follower of Christ not only in active living, but in the sovereignest point of contemplative living the which is possible by grace for to be come to in this present life of a perfect soul yet abiding in this deadly body; and thereto that doth that in him is, and by thy supposing hath done long time before, for to able him to contemplative living by the virtuous means of active living.

What do people think of this book?

 

[urquhart]

This wonderful book is a hidden treasure. It is an authoritative treatise on contemplative prayer which was written anonymously by a monk in England in the Middle Ages. As the preface indicates, it is not for everyone. It is addressed to those who have been brought to the stage of simplified prayer and continuous prayer.

 

[jimmy]

Thanks urquhart, the reason why I ask is because I was looking at it on Amazon.com and saw a review that mentions that you should start with other books first like St. John of The Cross.

I basically am wondering whether I am ready to read it or whether I should put it off for a while.

 

[urquhart]

The book is online and I think you should take a look at that first, to see if it is for you:
ccel.org/u/unknowing/cloud_c.htm

If the book speaks to you, and you do feel called to study and practice it, get an edition that has been translated into modern English. I like “The Cloud of Unknowing and the Book of Privy Counseling”, Edited and with an introduction by William Johnston, Foreword by Huston Smith, New York: An Image Book, Published by Doubleday, 1996.

 

[jimmy]

urquhart:

The book is online and I think you should take a look at that first, to see if it is for you:
ccel.org/u/unknowing/cloud_c.htm

If the book speaks to you, and you do feel called to study and practice it, get an edition that has been translated into modern English. I like “The Cloud of Unknowing and the Book of Privy Counseling”, Edited and with an introduction by William Johnston, Foreword by Huston Smith, New York: An Image Book, Published by Doubleday, 1996.

Thankyou,

I actually already got a copy from the library, but was hesitant to start reading it until I got an opinion on it. I got the version that is part of the “Western Spirituality” series.

 

[mercygate]

This is a book for people who are already seasoned in prayer. Not that you couldn’t read it and profit from it, but to understand a lot of it, it helps to have been at the game for a while . . . It’s pretty heady stuff, mystical. Deep, contemplative prayer.

 

[urquhart]

jimmy:

Thankyou,

I actually already got a copy from the library, but was hesitant to start reading it until I got an opinion on it. I got the version that is part of the “Western Spirituality” series.

This is an authentic book of Catholic spirituality which gives guidance for those on the apophatic way. If this is your path, I believe you might find it at least as helpful as John of the Cross. You can read and practice what it tells you with confidence. If it is for you, you will know it right away.

 

[Cockney_Clive]

jimmy:

Thanks urquhart, the reason why I ask is because I was looking at it on Amazon.com and saw a review that mentions that you should start with other books first like St. John of The Cross.

I basically am wondering whether I am ready to read it or whether I should put it off for a while.

St. John of the Cross is pretty deep and mystical too. Hardly for beginners!

I would also recommend St. Teresa of Jesus (aka ‘of Avila’) The Way of Perfection, also in a good, modern translation. Read it together with Sr. Elizabeth Ruth Obbard O Carm St. Teresa’a Way of Perfection for Everyone :tiphat:

Yes, get yourself a modern translation and then, well, when you feel ready to go down that road - practice

 

[LSK]

I am working hard on my prayer life. I know I am at the begining stages described by St. Theresa of Avila (sometimes crying during my prayer) as planting the garden and watering it. What are some of the ways you all have found to help you mature in your prayer life?

Thank you, Family!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

LSK:

I am working hard on my prayer life. I know I am at the begining stages described by St. Theresa of Avila (sometimes crying during my prayer) as planting the garden and watering it. What are some of the ways you all have found to help you mature in your prayer life?

Thank you, Family!

One thing I would suggest is for people to find a spiritual director if they embark on the contemplative journey. It can be worth its weight in gold, but also difficult to find.

I read this book, the Cloud of Unknowing, over 20 years ago. I have read the Living Flame of Love and got half way through the Dark Night of the Soul when I ran into trouble and had no spiritual director to guide me through it. I had been told to get a new spiritual dierctor when I got back stateside (I was in Europe in a Franciscan convent in the novitiate, but had to leave due to physical illness).

I tried to find a spiritual director, but did not follow up aggressively enough, nor did I follow all of my leads.

One issue with finding such a director is that you are met with a lot of blank stares from priests you think will understand. Or, you will be met with, “oh my” as they recognize how deep this is. Some are not capable of giving advice because they are not familiar with the material.

I finally contacted a contemplative order of nuns near me and they referred me to a priest in a parish about 12 minutes away from my home! Working on the grounds of that parish is a contemplative (but non-cloistered) group of priests. I go Friday for my first session.

Why is spiritual direction so important? Well, I can tell you from first hand experience and verify what my last spiritual director said over 20 years ago. You can run into issues that are difficult to understand or deal with, and end up taking a wrong turn. My wrong turn lasted 2 decades.

When working with a spiritual director, or even a confessor, who understands the mystics, you will be challenged in various ways. It is critical to be completely honest, even about thoughts you may have, in order to counter certain things, such as pride. It can be very difficult to humble yourself before another person, even a priest if he tells you to do something you don’t want to do, or tells you to stop or reduce something else that you like.

Case in point is the issue of spiritual gluttony - something St. John of the Cross points out. There are many ways this manifests itself so I wouldn’t want to go into detail, but can give one example. Someone may become so absorbed into penances that they carry them to excess without seeing it. A spiritual director or confessor may ask this person to cut down. Or, they may be so into the mass and eucharist that they go twice daily, every day. A spiritual director may ask them to cut back to going only on Sunday. Some won’t be able to do this. This may be a test to see if you have pride or humility, or it could simply be for your own good at a certain point.

The Holy Spirit works through spiritual directors and confessors. Obedience is a path the Holy Spirit works through, but through which the devil cannot pass. For this reason, we humble ourselves to shed pride, and obey our confessors and spiritual directors.

If at any point you feel yourself “cracking” under any kind of pressure - either something you are imposing on yourself or something your director suggests, you must tell hm. The devil likes to let you get overwhelmed to the point that you abandon it altogether. If you catch yourself not wanting to tell him something, you have just identified a valid reason TO tell him.

Hope this helps.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mercygate:

This is a book for people who are already seasoned in prayer. Not that you couldn’t read it and profit from it, but to understand a lot of it, it helps to have been at the game for a while . . . It’s pretty heady stuff, mystical. Deep, contemplative prayer.

The strange thing is, that once a person gets involved in contemplative prayer, the whole thing becomes so wonderfully simple it’s incredible!

To me, the Church could hardly do anything better for herself than to get her apophatic tradition out here a little closer to the mainstream.

The two major traditions of the Church are katephatic (sp?) and apophatic. The first is what we normally experience; learning history, learning about God, Church teachings, scripture, etc. It is focused on learning about God.

The apophatic tradition is focused on what God isn’t. In other words, we know God by dismissing preconceived notions, (dare I say graven images) and allowing ourselves to move toward God, who is always separated from us by this Cloud of Unknowing.

Now that I have been introduced to the apophatic tradition after several decades of Catholicism, I see that’s what I’d really been missing. Things don’t make a lot of sense without this part of our faith, because people tend to get so hooked up over theology and dogma they don’t experience actual Union with God, and they are prone to presumptuousness.

It was following in the apophatic tradition that brought about my mental and spiritual healing, which was very much needed when I first started seeing a SD at the age of 40-something. At the risk of inciting a riot, dare I suggest that from a spiritual standpoint, a lot of the activities that mainstream Catholics get to be involved in constitute the bushel that hides the light of true spirituality.

Another way to say all this; let’s learn not just dogmatic theology, but at mystical theology. Then we can start realizing our spiritual potential and work toward being living saints. The traditions are made to work together; without the apophatic Catholicism had become for me a bit of an empty shell. Thank God the tradition is alive and well, even though not obvious from the outside.

Alan

 

[ATeNumquam]

AlanFromWichita:

T
To me, the Church could hardly do anything better for herself than to get her apophatic tradition out here a little closer to the mainstream.

The apophatic tradition is focused on what God isn’t. In other words, we know God by dismissing preconceived notions, (dare I say graven images) and allowing ourselves to move toward God, who is always separated from us by this Cloud of Unknowing.

Now that I have been introduced to the apophatic tradition after several decades of Catholicism, I see that’s what I’d really been missing. Things don’t make a lot of sense without this part of our faith, because people tend to get so hooked up over theology and dogma they don’t experience actual Union with God, and they are prone to presumptuousness.

It was following in the apophatic tradition that brought about my mental and spiritual healing, which was very much needed
Another way to say all this; let’s learn not just dogmatic theology, but at mystical theology. Then we can start realizing our spiritual potential and work toward being living saints. The traditions are made to work together; without the apophatic Catholicism had become for me a bit of an empty shell. Thank God the tradition is alive and well, even though not obvious from the outside.

Alan

Great post, Alan!:clapping: - I totally agree!
When I discovered some of this stuff, I was 17 years old and a non-Catholic. I thought - “Why have I never heard of this “side” of Christianity, never heard of the Christian mystics? I’ll have to be a Catholic to get proper access to this!” And I did.
But like you, I wish the Church made it better known. People are sometimes drawn to Eastern religions (as I was in my teens) looking for this deep spiritual life, and it’s in our own back yard!
I guess those who seek will indeed find it.

This is a great thread!

 

[urquhart]

I doubt the Christian mystics are ever going to have a wide audience, even within the Catholic and Orthodox churches, because so few people have been drawn into higher stages of prayer. As St. Teresa would say, most Christians are working in the first 3 mansions. And of course there is nothing wrong with that. It is how God is manifesting to them at this particular time.

For people in the first 3 mansions, a book like the Cloud of Unknowing would be frustrating and incomprehensible at best, and it is possible that some could get themselves in a little trouble with it. Continuous repetition of the same short prayer is not good for everyone, and the Cloud author’s approach of recommending a prayer consisting of one syllable only, is extreme, and will work for very few. My spiritual advisor (a Carmelite nun) recommends that people who are called to pray in this way start out by choosing and working with a short prayer of seven syllables.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

urquhart:

I doubt the Christian mystics are ever going to have a wide audience, even within the Catholic and Orthodox churches, because so few people have been drawn into higher stages of prayer. As St. Teresa would say, most Christians are working in the first 3 mansions. And of course there is nothing wrong with that. It is how God is manifesting to them at this particular time.

Is it possible that part of the reason few Catholics are called to it is that they weren’t made aware of it? The CCC not only speaks of contemplative prayer more than the other two Christian forms combined, it even uses words like “should” involving prayer life, so that’s why I’d at least like to see this get more exposure.

Here’s what I mean, about the CCC. Paragraphs 2700-2724, which are an intro and then section on “expressions of prayer”

Paragraph 2704 (emphasis added): “Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him “to whom we speak.” Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.”

Then in the next section on meditative prayer, 2708 states: “Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.”

Then, 2724, part of the summary: “Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.”

I really do need to read St. Theresa more, though…

For people in the first 3 mansions, a book like the Cloud of Unknowing would be frustrating and incomprehensible at best, and it is possible that some could get themselves in a little trouble with it. Continuous repetition of the same short prayer is not good for everyone, and the Cloud author’s approach of recommending a prayer consisting of one syllable only, is extreme, and will work for very few. My spiritual advisor (a Carmelite nun) recommends that people who are called to pray in this way start out by choosing and working with a short prayer of seven syllables.

Yes, there are many different ways to invite contemplation, which is technically not a method but a gift from God. Methods predispose us to invite God.

The biggest issue with the “sacred word” the Cloud and CP speaks of, is that people tend to think it’s supposed to mean something and it doesn’t. When the Cloud suggests the word “sin” for example, that was tough for me to understand at first why you’d want to meditate on “sin.” I finally realized the word has no meaning in terms of its literal convention, but is itself a symbol of willingness to return ones attention to the Unknowing, away from distracting thoughts. The concern about a “long one” such as seven syllables is that it could actually become a mantra, and becomes in itself a focus on the mind.

The Cloud is most closely followed by the practice of centering prayer, designed after it by Cistercian monks in Colorado. It’s pretty “sudden immersion” to silent prayer, which may make some uncomfortable as the Holy Spirit shines a bright light where it isn’t used to being shone. (Can you imagine your spirit being awakened by a big light in its face? It may want to cover its eyes for a few years until it gets used to the Light.) Lectio Divina is a form that gently eases into contemplation, but incorporates all three forms; vocal, meditative, and contemplative, corresponding to different levels of intimacy with the Word.

I agree with you that somebody unaccustomed to contemplative prayer might not benefit from the Cloud, because as you say it is incomprehensible. When I first read it, I had not only done CP for a while but had just listened to a videotape by Fr. Wm. Meninger about the Cloud. With that sort of preparation, I first read the Cloud like a neglected plant soaks up water.

Alan

 

[DBT]

urquhart:

For people in the first 3 mansions, a book like the Cloud of Unknowing would be frustrating and incomprehensible at best, and it is possible that some could get themselves in a little trouble with it.

Amen to that

I think those interested in a book like The Cloud would do themselves a great service by becoming familiar with St. Teresa first. St. Teresa provides context to all of this. Taken on it’s own, I think a book like The Cloud would simply baffle most readers who, by definition, are those in the first 3 mansions as you say here.

While the whole concept of “mansions” didn’t exist when the author of The Cloud wrote his book, I think he had something like this in mind when he issued his warning on the first page. It seems pretty clear to me that the author of The Cloud was writing to a student who, in St. Teresa’s terms, had progressed to the 4th mansions or beyond.

The Cloud addresses those aspects of contemplation that will probably only make sense to those who have experienced it first hand. It is one piece of the “pie.” IMHO, you need someone like St. Teresa to show what the whole pie is. And, when you get right down to it, that’s what the mansions are all about.

Dave.

 

[urquhart]

Alan, I really like the way you said “there are many different ways to invite contemplation”. For that is just what we are doing when we use any prayer technique.

St. Teresa would wholeheartedly agree with everything you quoted from the catechism - in fact, I’m sure much of was taken directly from her teachings! However, she would advise people who are just beginning to experience contemplative prayer to stick with the ordinary prayers of the church - such as the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and the Glory Be. She is quite an advocate of vocal prayer, and if you haven’t read “The Way of Perfection”, don’t miss it.

As DBT said, St. Teresa is the best introduction to contemplative prayer, and in my opinion “The Way of Perfection” is the best introduction to St. Teresa.

 

[DBT]

urquhart:

St. Teresa is the best introduction to contemplative prayer, and in my opinion “The Way of Perfection” is the best introduction to St. Teresa.

I would agree with this. One of the things I think is so important about St. Teresa is all the time she spends on the “prep work” for contemplation . . . the life-long growth in the virtues. It isn’t until pretty far into The Way of Perfection (Chapter 31 or so ??) that she even begins to address the type of things found in The Cloud.

No doubt the author of The Cloud understood the necessity of walking the walk before talking the talk. But readers should keep in mind he was writing for a specific individual at a specific point in his spiritual life. For this reason he placed the emphasis on the contemplation itself . . . not the foundation blocks that lead to it.

The author of The Cloud wrote for an individual who had already reached the threshold of contemplation. St. Teresa shows the “road map” for all of us anywhere along the way.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

DBT:

The author of The Cloud wrote for an individual who had already reached the threshold of contemplation. St. Teresa shows the “road map” for all of us anywhere along the way.

I agree. The author is very clear, right up front in the book, that he would prefer you not read it if it doesn’t reach you. He is interested in talking to people to whom it is meaningful. My guess is most people will certainly know within the first few chapters, and maybe in about the first 30 seconds.

(Note: there are many chapters, some less than a page long.)

I also agree that some experience at contemplative prayer forms makes the book make sense. It’s like taking ground school when you’ve never even seen an airplane.

Alan

 

[mgarstin]

the book I Want to See God and I am a Daughter of the Church do a great job of explaining Carmelite spirituality and the prayer of recollection, etc.

 

[buzzcut]

mgarstin, those look like really good books. I have plenty of reading material for now but thank you for mentioning them.