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Ben_Masada
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In that case we have to admit that the Pope made a mistake to have printed his imprimatur on such a fake document? Watch what you are about to say here in this forum in the name of the Catholic Church. You could compromise yourself.
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EphelDuath
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It could have been a simple error, or it could’ve been intentional in good faith (Paul VI was rather liberal in some areas). Or, it could have been the case that the Imprimatur was only for the translation itself, and not for the footnotes or prefaces. I’d rather not speculate, but right now you’re just distracting from the issue at hand. The scholars that say that Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C. have to therefore conclude that Josephus’ history was an absolute fabrication, and they additionally have to provide a plausible explanation for why Alexander peacefully annexed Israel into the Macedonian Empire.
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Ben_Masada
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**Oh! Independently of this alleged encounter of Alexander with the High Priest in Jerusalem, I have read from another Historian, I don’t remember his full name right now, but one of them was “Duran”. He was a world Historian and he makes a reference to Alexander, that he had a “thing” for Israel, whatever he meant by that.
You are right, he never conquered Israel, but he anexed it peacefully with all due respect.
That he did not even ride into Jerusalem but walked respectfully as a pilgrim does.
I have also heard from Jewish sources about the meeting of Alexander with the High Priest
but that they ever had a talk involving the book of Daniel, I am not aware of. I’ll check Josephus just in case, as soon as I have chance stop by the Public Library.**
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EphelDuath
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He also had a “thing” for Egypt, and that was because the oracle there told him that he was destined to rule the world.
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Angelo_Michael
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You say these same things about Abraham and Moses don’t you? Haven’t you also read in the prophets how a prophet has a responsibility to warn others or else be held accountable for the consequences themself? So it is here with me. I can and must warn you that your rejecting Christ may ultimately lead you to a place you do not want to be. Or haven’t you read how Moses and Aaron competed with the Pharaoh’s magicians and demonstrated the superiority of God? Well, you are not demonstrating any works yourself but are actually found discrediting the works that others have done. And all your logic has been as if to say, “Aha, aha.”, in my opinion. When you find yourself a worker under the same Master you don’t have time to “rub in” the effects of persecution that all workers endure. Or don’t you understand that claims about the past don’t have any validity if the present is not being represented well? First represent the present accurately, and then maybe people will listen to you about the past.
I don’t mean to single you out, nor the Jewish people, but maybe you will listen and/or pass the word along. And the reason death [and/or genocide] is not the ultimate punishment is because it happens, even as you say, to everyone. According to Scripture, the righteous are often murdered at a greater rate than the wicked; are they not? So, if death can overtake the innocent and the guilty both, it is no longer an effective tool in eliminating rebellion or administering justice. Also, by killing an individual, one denies any prospective offspring of the victim the opportunity of life [and/or the acceptance of the Christ]. So it is, that when people reject Christ, that patience is necessary so that one can decipher if ever they change their mind; or if any of their descendants reach an alternate conclusion. This is, in my opinion, why Judgment Day is necessary. It is the most ethical means available for addressing the effects of sin. Nevertheless, it may yet still be possible, in my opinion, that if God [and/or Christ] finds sin in individuals or a community; that there may be an authorization of chastisement so as to help prevent the furthering of consequences that might ensue.
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Kamalayka
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Hey Ben,
Guess what?
You are not the only Jew on this forum.
THE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED THE MESSIAH TO BE A PERSON, NOT THE NATION OF ISRAEL!!!
That goofy mystical idea didn’t come around until much later.
You still never answered my question:
Why hasn’t there been a prophet in 2500 years??
Looking at the whole situation from a Jewish perspective, I asked myself,
“where did God go”?
Guess what?
You are not the only Jew on this forum.
THE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED THE MESSIAH TO BE A PERSON, NOT THE NATION OF ISRAEL!!!
That goofy mystical idea didn’t come around until much later.
You still never answered my question:
Why hasn’t there been a prophet in 2500 years??
Looking at the whole situation from a Jewish perspective, I asked myself,
“where did God go”?
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Ben_Masada
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**Well, in that case, nothing surprising about him. He was just in the look out for an omen for power. **
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Ben_Masada
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**What things do you imply I say about Abraham and Moses? If you could be more specific, I would appreciate.
About rejecting Christ, give me a reason why I should accept something which was fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone? Besides, the word “Christ” in Greek means “Anointed One” and Habakkuk says in 3:13, that Israel is the Anointed One of the Lord. I don’t have to accept Christ; I am part of Christ.**
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Ben_Masada
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**The belief in an individual Messiah is possible only in slavish mentality, as proper of the Jewish slaves of Egypt, that, when Moses showed up for the rescue, as a Messianic leader, the people welcomed him as the Messiah himself. When Moses died, they had no option to continue waiting for another one. What is this, are we to wait for a Messiah in every generation? If this makes sense to you, I don’t know anymore what commonsense is.
The Messiah does not die. The Messiah must live so that life be maintained with the rest of Mankind. No wonder Isaiah identifies the Messiah with Israel by name, so that you don’t have to assume that he could be an individual. Isaiah knew that according to Jeremiah 31:35,36, if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will go berserk. It means catastrophic extintion of Mankind.
Now, let me answer your question for the second time, why there hasn’t been a Prophet for 2500 years. Because we no longer need one. Since the Jewish People returned from exile in Babylon, and Ezra organized the Scriptures for us, as the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, we no longer need a Prophet
to teach us to know the Lord. (Jer. 31:34)
Now, we have the Scriptures and they are not too mysterious and remote for us. They are not up in the sky, that we should say, “Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?” Nor are they across the sea, that we should say, “Who
will crosss the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?” No, they are something very near to us, already in our own mouths and in our hearts; we have only to carry it out. (Deut. 30:11-14)**
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Angelo_Michael
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You said some things about Abraham and Moses at your other post, “A Challenge to Our Intelligence.” didn’t you? Like they were just dreaming [too] or something? I really should say that I am shocked by your representation of Judaism as well because of your remarks. Also, it seems inevitable that like the prophets who misled people long ago, you are endangering the people of Israel by your antics. As for me, I understand that you are Jewish, but you seeem to bend the rules to fit your needs. You remind me of the story of Lazarus and the rich man, and you are like the rich man. An Ethiopian Jew could be like Lazarus. Is your philosophical, “write 'em off” mentality very popular in Jerusalem, or is it just you? Isn’t there some Scriptures in the Proverbs about how a single sinner or mocker can create a lot of trouble?
I noticed this myself when I was serving as a portent for the 9-11 attacks. One time people came to draw my blood and one of the employees thought to call me the “Angel of Death.” Hitherto, I had been trying to find a way to warn America of the impending acts but at that time God instructed me to keep it a secret because of those remarks. So, I’m not only concerned for your soul, but for the safety of Israel because of the things you say and teach. And, just as it is said in that Ephraim and Manesseh shall be against Judah, and that Solomon was not invited to his brother’s party; so I wonder if the two popular forms of Judaism in Israel will be found to be less faithful than those Ethiopian Jews.
I am not asking you to believe in Christ because of what Paul wrote but because of what I am telling you.
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Angelo_Michael
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Hosea 13:14
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.”
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SonofMonica
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I think Ben should start a conspiracy theory website. This stuff is hilarious. Sort of reminds me of SDA people historically trying to come up with dates for the Second Advent. Or the Bible Code people.
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EphelDuath
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Yes, and the Jews wouldn’t have much of a prophecy to cur Alexander’s favor if Daniel hadn’t been composed yet.
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simplynoone
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Now I understand that you don’t accept Moses’ writings either because you yourself state that he was using metaphorical language. Korah’s rebellion occurred after the parting of the Sea and since so many miracles were being performed by/thru Moses at that time why do you suppose that the instance of the earth rending and swallowing up people is any less factual or intended to represent actual [supernatural] geological events than the others?
**Of course I accept the words that came through Moses. That is silly. They are full of wisdom and quite practical. **
**In Isaiah 28, it says that the work of God is strange. Why do you suppose that is? Because most people disregard the work of God’s “hands” to rather be involved with the work of man’s hands. Thus, why I read these fantastical accounts as metaphorical… there is more wisdom to be found when one recognizes the difference between how God creates and how man creates. **
**If the writers of the Tanakh spoke in plain language, would you have ever even bothered to pick it up? I don’t think so. Most men want more than what they have. **
It seems to me that you so readily reject Christ because you have rejected Moses as well. You appear to be dictating your faith based only on race, which is not Scriptural in the Tanakh.
This is also untrue. I am speaking of a People, Israel. That does not only include those who were born Jewish but those who join to the Jewish out of love for their God, His Law, and the People. Isaiah 49:19-21
Remember when Shimei cursed David? David did not answer him back for it but allowed him to do it in hopes that God would turn and favor him. I also have been mocked in my life and not answered a word back; it doesn’t make the person mocking me right.
**It doesn’t make the person wrong either, as well as being the martyr doesn’t make you right. When you use another People’s writings as a catalyst for your own beliefs to the point that you teach your beliefs on their writings to the world, you set yourself up to being asked to prove it. If you can’t prove it and are called out on it, this doesn’t entail “mocking” in the sense that you are trying to convey. Quit being a martyr and start giving the reasons why you are using the Tanakh to promote the worship of a man as God and the Church (the gentiles) as the final authority on the Hebrew Scriptures. **
**It is fine to occasionally bite off more than you can chew, but if you are going to be taken seriously, you should still chew and swallow. In this case, you will have to admit that your faith is not based on the Tanakh. **
Is it so difficult to understand that if humans can kill and torture one another that, in carrying out retribution, God [and/or Christ] can do so even more?
**God doesn’t kill out of retribution. Death is part of Nature because it allows new growth, new understanding, new life. That is for our benefit. **
**Killing for retribution is not even part of the nature of the animal kingdom. **
Putting to death for purposes of retribution is unique to mankind only. We are the variables in the constant.
Also, you don’t seem to understand that evolution is not salvation.
**Understanding is salvation <---- what I said. Evolution is God’s way of creating and thus, our evolving in understanding is His way of bringing forth salvation. **
Nor completely that Christ is not God Himself but God’s Son. He Himself said, “God is greater than I.” Yet, Christ is one with God and so one can not worship God without worshipping Him; neither can one worship Him without worshipping God.
**Israel is the Son of God. Exodus 4:22,23, Hosea 11:1. That Jesus was Jewish and part of Israel, the People makes him one of the Son of God … but not the only Son of God. **
So, if you really expect me to believe you worship God then confess that you are inevitably worshipping Christ as well.
I praise the anointed for being the medium between God and mankind by bringing the Word of God into the world, but I don’t worship them. They would not have anyone do so. I know I worship God and that is thanks to the understanding I have through them.
The Christian god requires the belief of people because without it, it would no longer exist; whereas the God of Israel was before mankind and will be after mankind … so don’t assume your approval is needed.
**If you meant Jesus by saying Christ, how is lying going to prove that I worship God. How about I say the truth. I agree with Jesus that salvation is of the Jews for they KNOW what they worship John 4:22, and Christians do not. **
Don’t let a history of rejecting, mocking, and killing Him get to your soul. Turn from your sin before it is too late and take advantage of the opportunity that is provided thru me.
**I don’t have a history of killing Jesus. I was born almost 2,000 years later. So, try another “sin” to guilt with me. If it works, it will truly be a miracle.**
Remember the leprosy of Naaman and the trespass of Gehazi? Surely it is possible with all the persecution of the people God has entrusted to me (and that I myself) have suffered that the sins of Judaism can be forgotten. Nevertheless, I really don’t think, or believe, it will benefit anyone to mock, reject, or demonize me.
You will have to clarify yourself here … and maybe leave your personal martyrdom out of it since I am not “mocking” you as enjoy claiming. Just prove your faith is founded on the side of the Bible that I use. If you are so convinced to tell me that I am wrong, then you must have the evidences to show me your right, no?.
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SonofMonica
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Gnostic Judaism. 
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Angelo_Michael
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It’s not that I need to prove anything, nor that any one person would necessarily be worth the cost of that proof; nor is it so that I am in control of the deliverance of proofs or evidences to people. Don’t you understand that you have taken Moses’ proof and overridden it with your interpretation of his writings? I am telling you that I don’t agree with you that Moses did, would have, or will reject Christ; and that I disagree with you that Moses’ writings (and/or the Tanakh) are a justification for your view of Christ – not that Christianity always has it right either.**Of course I accept the words that came through Moses. That is silly. They are full of wisdom and quite practical. **
**In Isaiah 28, it says that the work of God is strange. Why do you suppose that is? Because most people disregard the work of God’s “hands” to rather be involved with the work of man’s hands. Thus, why I read these fantastical accounts as metaphorical… there is more wisdom to be found when one recognizes the difference between how God creates and how man creates. **
**If the writers of the Tanakh spoke in plain language, would you have ever even bothered to pick it up? I don’t think so. Most men want more than what they have. **
This is also untrue. I am speaking of a People, Israel. That does not only include those who were born Jewish but those who join to the Jewish out of love for their God, His Law, and the People. Isaiah 49:19-21
**It doesn’t make the person wrong either, as well as being the martyr doesn’t make you right. When you use another People’s writings as a catalyst for your own beliefs to the point that you teach your beliefs on their writings to the world, you set yourself up to being asked to prove it. If you can’t prove it and are called out on it, this doesn’t entail “mocking” in the sense that you are trying to convey. Quit being a martyr and start giving the reasons why you are using the Tanakh to promote the worship of a man as God and the Church (the gentiles) as the final authority on the Hebrew Scriptures. **
**It is fine to occasionally bite off more than you can chew, but if you are going to be taken seriously, you should still chew and swallow. In this case, you will have to admit that your faith is not based on the Tanakh. **
**God doesn’t kill out of retribution. Death is part of Nature because it allows new growth, new understanding, new life. That is for our benefit. **
**Killing for retribution is not even part of the nature of the animal kingdom. **
Putting to death for purposes of retribution is unique to mankind only. We are the variables in the constant.
**Understanding is salvation <---- what I said. Evolution is God’s way of creating and thus, our evolving in understanding is His way of bringing forth salvation. **
**Israel is the Son of God. Exodus 4:22,23, Hosea 11:1. That Jesus was Jewish and part of Israel, the People makes him one of the Son of God … but not the only Son of God. **
**I praise the anointed for being the medium between God and mankind by bringing the Word of God into the world, but I don’t worship them. They would not have anyone do so. I know I worship God and that is thanks to the understanding I have through them. That I know is not necessitated on whether you believe me or not. The Christian god requires the belief of people because without it, it would not longer exist; whereas the God of Israel was before mankind and will be after mankind. **
**If you meant Jesus by saying Christ, how is lying going to prove that I worship God. How about I say the truth. I agree with Jesus that salvation is of the Jews for they KNOW what they worship John 4:22, and Christians do not. **
**I don’t have a history of killing Jesus. I was born almost 2,000 years later. So, try another “sin” to guilt with me. If it works, it will truly be a miracle.
You will have to clarify yourself here … and maybe leave your personal martyrdom out of it since I am not “mocking” you as enjoy claiming. Just prove your faith is founded on the side of the Bible that I use. If your so convinced to tell me I am wrong, then you must have the evidences to show me your right, no?.
But remember that there is an old and a new. And sometimes, as with wine, the old is more desirable than the new. Also, I think it was in Ezekiel, that Jerusalem, “the middle sister”, is portrayed as less faithful than the others. A correlation might be that Islam and Judaism, the older and younger “sisters” are actually more faithful – in practice and/or theory, etc. – than Christianity.
Yet, nonetheless, because Christ was rejected and condemned by [some of] the Jews of His time indicates that, in order for you to accept His promotion of Judaism, you also need to accept that He is the ultimate representation of it; or else you are just misrepresenting His words by receiving what you like and/or can use and rejecting the rest. Moreover, If you really believe(d) that Christ was a blasphemer; then I don’t suppose it would benefit you to bring back some of His words any more than it benefitted Saul when he brought back some of the animals of Amalek.
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Kamalayka
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Angelo_Michael
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Do you understand that you have accused me of insanity? What you may not have known is that that is an accusation that has been placed on me before, and essentially for the same reason. (i.e. my faith in Christ and/or testimony that I received revelations of future events.) Moreover, the “proof” pertaining to the validity of that testimony came during an oppression enacted by individuals operating under a similar conclusion as you posess and at the expense of innocent life.
Now, I am not going to state that I exclude Scripture from the development of my faith, but I will have to disagree with your assumptions as to the motivation I had for reading and/or studying them. I wrote a few posts at Ben’s other thread, “A Challenge to Our Intelligence”, about the development of my faith from personal revelation if you would like to read them (especially relevant are # 227 & 230, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5727664#post5727664 ).
Again, since you have accused me of malpractice of a theological nature, and have insisted that I (and that one could) “quit” being a martyr; I basically feel that you should have to first prove your accusations against me and also I would implore you to understand that the “proof” I have provided, like many of the injustices I have suffered, has all to easily been made into a non-occurence. And this fact – that you can be misinformed about religious events that happen in our modern time – compels me, not to provide more “proof”, which, if possible, would presumably entail the [further] expense of innocent life; but rather to advise you that the main goal of a religious individual should not be to demand “proof”, but to provide the opportunity for faith. [For faith protects life; and faith allows for mercy.]
The burden of martyrdom is not the injustice(s) one suffers, neither is the goal thereof to evoke pity; but the burden of martyrdom is the concern one has for others. For, justice is established by the power and judgment of God; but, in the same instant, any hope one has had for another can vanish, and any such concern may prove ineffective, misguided, and unfruitful.
And, for reference, I was not trying to “guilt trip” you or accuse you falsely. You say you know the N.T. so well that you should have understood that those who deny the divinity of Christ are therein considered guilty of His blood. And again, I am not advocating that you worship Christ as God; but that you understand [and/or accept (in lieu of accusing me)] that the relationship of the Two and Their bond, as it were, compels me, as a Christian, to advocate and argue that the nature of that relationship does not allow for the worship of God independent of the worship of His Son.
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Angelo_Michael
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…Continued from reply #59:
Also, I would like you to consider that I am not necessarily using [an]other’s writings as a catalyst for my own beliefs; but rather I am using my own belief(s) – concomittant with the resulting works – to both validate and credit (e.g. for inspiration) the Scriptures.
Also, I would like you to consider that I am not necessarily using [an]other’s writings as a catalyst for my own beliefs; but rather I am using my own belief(s) – concomittant with the resulting works – to both validate and credit (e.g. for inspiration) the Scriptures.
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