The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[Answersplease]

Interesting! Talking about Muslims and Jews, you say, “I am not anti-Muslim.” Does it mean you are anti-Jewish?

Yes very interesting that you automatically ASSUME that I am anti-Jewish.
You are just trying to play the anti-semitism card. I guess Jews are ABOVE CRITICISM, be sure to tell the other races/ethnicities that.

For the record I am NOT anti-Jewish.
I just don’t like the insulting LIES you personally have posted.

**
Then, you a Gentile Christian say to a Jew, “You mean nothing to me.” **

You show your ignorance and assume I am a Gentile AND a Christian.
I have studied Christianity a bit and have an affinity for it, don’t be surprised that people say such things to you when you insult something that they are interested in.
In fact you have offended at least some of the other forum members here and in your other threads as well.

**
Now, let me share with you what the Psalmist says in 2:1-4. "Why do the nations rage and the people utter folly? The kings of the earth rise up and the princes conspire together against the Lord and against his anointed. 'Let us break their fetters, they say, and cast their bonds from us. But He, Who is throned in heaven laughs; the Lord derides them.**

You assume I believe in any of that, MAY BE I did at one time.

**
You neither understand nor is ready to, what we Jews mean to you. We are for your salvation.**

I have read your posts about your “collective messiah” being the Jewish people themselves.
And that the world will end it the Jews disappear because they are more special than everyone else.
That is RACISM.

You think God will destroy the world if His “favored” people disappear? That sounds silly and illogical.

**
Don’t forget that Jesus said that salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22) So, you are raging and uttering folly.**

You assume I believe in that, MAY BE I did at one time.

**
You are rising up against the Anointed of the Lord, who according to Habakkuk 3:13 is Israel, the Jewish People.**

Keep dreaming. YOUR interpretation means nothing to me.

**
The fetters you want to break and the bonds you want cast from you are what keep the rest of Mankind going.**

More racism, you again say that all of mankind will die if the Jews disappear. Tell that to the Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Wiccans, Buddists, Taoists, Athiests, and any other religions out there.

Like I said keep dreaming.

**
So, the reason why the Lord laughs and derides you is because you don’t know what you are saying or doing.
**

What? You think the Lord laughs and derides me? Think about how fate has treated your “collective messiah”, it was not very well and I am not saying it was right, but just pointing out history.

**
When God promised Noah that He would never allow again another catastrophe to finish with Mankind, He connected His promise with the estability of the Natural laws. (Gen. 8:22) And the natural laws became connected with the permanence of Israel as a People beofre the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35,36) It means that Mankind is saved of catastrophic event as long as Israel exists as a People before the Lord.
**

LOL, like I said it sounds illogical, try to convince an Atheist of that.

**
And you write me a post saying that I don’t mean anything to you. The Father will forgive you because you don’t know what you say. **

Wow! You have become a prophet who knows the will of God! (sarcasm)

 

[Ben_Masada]

JL: When was the Jewish canon set?

The Jewish Canon was closed by phases. The Torah in the 3th Century BCE, the Neviim or Prophetic books in 2nd Century BCE, when our Scholars had understood that no more Prophet would rise, and the Ketuvim or Historical books in the First Century BCE. That’s when Daniel was included.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Thanks for posting this thread Ben. I have gained a lot from your insight, as well as from that of others; and also from the struggle to express my views both accurately and respectfully. On this note, I would like to share a song I have written previously:

Song for Moses

Drawn out of water,
Moses is your name;
raised in Egypt,
beckoned by a flame.

You are not our God,
just a man to lead us;
a priest to teach us,
of His laws.

I am here today,
in part because of you;
and so I’m singing
this song of praise –

Because you would not allow it,
you would not concede;
when The Lord was angry,
is when you would plead:
“Spare them once again,
why should anyone say,
that God could not deliver
on the promise that He’s made.”

A great prophet,
mighty in word and deed;
you were so bold,
and yet so meek.

You led the people,
Israel to freedom;
and to you The Lord spoke
as a friend.

The Lord spoke,
your face shone;
when I follow God,
I know I’m not alone –

Because you would not allow it,
you would not concede;
when The Lord was angry,
is when you would plead:
“Spare them once again,
why should anyone say,
that God could not deliver
on the promise that He’s made.”

There, upon a mountain, with all the people gathered below;
you communed with God and were entrusted with the Law.
There, upon a mountain, with the apostles looking on;
you communed with Christ and Elijah in Holy Light.
But what I admire about you most of all is that –

You would not allow it,
you would not concede;
when The Lord was angry,
is when you would plead:
“Spare them once again,
why should anyone say,
that God could not deliver
on the promise that He’s made.”

Very touching and inspirative. Thank you Angelo Michael

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,

I’m not sure how placing Daniel outside of the prophetic canon is detrimental to the Christianity (with the possible exception of fundamentalists.)

.

I believe that you don’t find the fact that Daniel is not a prophetic book detrimental to
Christianity, because, perhaps you are not aware of the so-called prophetic frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which Christian debaters use as the trump card to clean the table, as they see it to prove Jesus’ Messiahship. Well, they have been mistaken all alone, for this supposed pillar of Christianity is cracking.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

I believe that you don’t find the fact that Daniel is not a prophetic book detrimental to
Christianity, because, perhaps you are not aware of the so-called prophetic frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which Christian debaters use as the trump card to clean the table, as they see it to prove Jesus’ Messiahship. Well, they have been mistaken all alone, for this supposed pillar of Christianity is cracking.

Ben,

I am aware of Daniel holding special messianic awareness for Christians. However, it only effects fundamentalists and Protestant branches of Christianity that wholly reject tradition. For Catholics and Orthodox (and certain reform movements) the scriptures are a tool expressing the true pillar of the faith.

Christianity’s pillar is the death and resurrection of Jesus. Everything else is commentary. I would argue that the Exodus culminating at Mt.Sinai is a similar pillar for Judaism. Both events testify a loving/living God who will lead people out of bondage.

Which is why from inference, Christians will see Messianic promise (a Christian view) in every verse of the Tanakh. There is no deduction involved. That is why it is hard for Jews and Christians to talk about the same text, because they immediately approach it in two different ways. Those two ways have their roots in a world that no longer exists and has left very little information.

 

[EphelDuath]

Listen my friend, are you a Catholic? I assume you are. Do you believe what your superiors say, I mean Bishops and the Pope? I suppose you do. I know you are not going to believe this one, but most my informations about Daniel not being a prophetic book but historical, and the fact that it was written between 167 and 164 CE I am getting from the Catholic Church.

No, you’re getting that from a specific translation that the Catholic Church approved in some capacity, of which the details are ambiguous. The Church itself has no teachings regarding specific dates of scripture composition, beyond that which can be inferred from the texts themselves.

I already covered this. You continue to dodge the question.

 

[EphelDuath]

I believe that you don’t find the fact that Daniel is not a prophetic book detrimental to
Christianity, because, perhaps you are not aware of the so-called prophetic frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which Christian debaters use as the trump card to clean the table, as they see it to prove Jesus’ Messiahship. Well, they have been mistaken all alone, for this supposed pillar of Christianity is cracking.

There are so many prophecies of Christ in scripture that have been fulfilled that this one particular verse being misinterpreted (of which is debatable, since Jewish historians contradict your primary reason) is not damaging at all to the case for Christ.

See: scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

 

[ALotLessThumb]

There are so many prophecies of Christ in scripture that have been fulfilled that this one particular verse being misinterpreted (of which is debatable, since Jewish historians contradict your primary reason) is not damaging at all to the case for Christ.

See: scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

EphelDuath,

Since it is a matter of inductive reasoning to say that Jesus fulfilled any (or all) messianic prophecies, your list isn’t conducive to conversation. The Christian tradition says he did and the Jewish tradition says he didn’t, and we still are at square one. One or the other is wrong, or both are wrong, or both are right; that world is gone and we are left with Christians and Jews.

 

[humble_maid]

It’s a pity that you didn’t read verses 18 and 19. You would know where the antichrists are coming from: The ranks of the Church itself. Go back there and read it.

1JN 2:18-26
18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour. It is the last hour… That is, it is the last age of the world. Many Antichrists… that is, many heretics, enemies of Christ and his church, and forerunners of the great Antichrist. 19 They went out from us but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us: but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. They were not of us… That is, they were not solid, steadfast, genuine Christians: otherwise they would have remained in the church. 20 But you have the unction from the Holy One and know all things.The unction from the Holy One… That is, grace and wisdom from the Holy Ghost. Know all things… The true children of God’s church, remaining in unity, under the guidance of their lawful pastors, partake of the grace of the Holy Ghost, promised to the church and her pastors; and have in the church all necessary knowledge and instruction; so as to have no need to seek it elsewhere, since it can be only found in that society of which they are members. 21 I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also. 24 As for you, let that which you have heard from the beginning abide in you. If that abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning, you also shall abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting. 26 These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you

**The antichrist is the one who denies Jesus as the Son of God (Christ) and thereby denies the Father who had sent Him. These include herectics and non-believers.

Peace be with you Ben.**

 

[jlhargus]

The Jewish Canon was closed by phases. The Torah in the 3th Century BCE, the Neviim or Prophetic books in 2nd Century BCE, when our Scholars had understood that no more Prophet would rise, and the Ketuvim or Historical books in the First Century BCE. That’s when Daniel was included.

JL: Thanks, is there any historic evidence for this that I can read? Who closed the canon in the 3rd Century BCE, 2nd Century BCE, and so on? What scholars decided no more Prophets would rise? Was this official closing of the canon or opinion only?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,

Christianity’s pillar is the death and resurrection of Jesus. Everything else is commentary. I would argue that the Exodus culminating at Mt.Sinai is a similar pillar for Judaism. Both events testify a loving/living God who will lead people out of bondage.

**Well my friend, this pillar of Christianity lacks a good foundation, because nobody can prove it with an eyewitness to the resurrection. Luke says in Acts 1:1-3 that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, it was after his suffering or passion and not after his resurrection. This is no proof even that he died, let alone that he resurrected. He might very well have survived the cross. To have seen Jesus after his crucifixion will never stand as a case in Court that he resurrected. Only an eyewitness would settle the issue, but there wasn’t any. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, you’re getting that from a specific translation that the Catholic Church approved in some capacity, of which the details are ambiguous. The Church itself has no teachings regarding specific dates of scripture composition, beyond that which can be inferred from the texts themselves.

I already covered this. You continue to dodge the question.

Well, if you don’t believe, there is nothing else I can do. You are not here that I could bring the proofs of what I am saying to you. If you don’t agree with your Pope and Bishops, probably there is division in the Church. I have the Imprimatur of Pope Paulus PP. VI. You are giving me the impression that he was a fool to have allowed his signature to be printed on a version of the Bible that would be spread throughtout the earth.

 

[Ben_Masada]

There are so many prophecies of Christ in scripture that have been fulfilled that this one particular verse being misinterpreted (of which is debatable, since Jewish historians contradict your primary reason) is not damaging at all to the case for Christ.

See: scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

**ALL your “so many prophecies of Christ in Scripture” are based on assumptions. And assumptions so false that you have lost track of the reality that Jesus was not the only Jew the Romans crucified. Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the very same manner Jesus was crucified. How about the others? The only difference between them and Jesus is the luck that they didn’t have of a Paul to make a Christ out of them. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

1JN 2:18-26
18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour. It is the last hour… That is, it is the last age of the world. Many Antichrists… that is, many heretics, enemies of Christ and his church, and forerunners of the great Antichrist. 19 They went out from us but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us: but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. They were not of us… That is, they were not solid, steadfast, genuine Christians: otherwise they would have remained in the church. 20 But you have the unction from the Holy One and know all things.The unction from the Holy One… That is, grace and wisdom from the Holy Ghost. Know all things… The true children of God’s church, remaining in unity, under the guidance of their lawful pastors, partake of the grace of the Holy Ghost, promised to the church and her pastors; and have in the church all necessary knowledge and instruction; so as to have no need to seek it elsewhere, since it can be only found in that society of which they are members. 21 I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also. 24 As for you, let that which you have heard from the beginning abide in you. If that abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning, you also shall abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting. 26 These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you

**The antichrist is the one who denies Jesus as the Son of God (Christ) and thereby denies the Father who had sent Him. These include herectics and non-believers.

Peace be with you Ben.**

**You do not understand that you have the Father, or can speak of the Father, because we, the Jews were the ones who brought Him to you and to all Mankind. If it were not for us, the Jews, you would have no idea of the Father or the true concept of God. Now, the only way you find to pay us back is by fabricating the idolatry that God incarnated as a man to implement Replacement Theology. Well my friend, we are not ready to give in the only right way to worship God, as Jesus himself declared that the Jews understand what they worship, while the Gentiles worship what they do not understand. (John 4:222-24) **

 

[EphelDuath]

**ALL your “so many prophecies of Christ in Scripture” are based on assumptions. And assumptions so false that you have lost track of the reality that Jesus was not the only Jew the Romans crucified. Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the very same manner Jesus was crucified. How about the others? The only difference between them and Jesus is the luck that they didn’t have of a Paul to make a Christ out of them. **

When have Christians ever thought that Jesus was the only person ever crucified? The Gospels themselves tell of two robbers crucified left and right of Jesus, and tradition states that St. Peter the Apostle was crucified upside down.

The difference is that Christ was sinless, and did not deserve to die.

Yet you continue to avoid my questions. Your credibility slips every time you dodge my points and try to come up with a new attack. What startles me is that you think Josephus is a credible source for people being crucified in Judea, but you wantonly throw out his account of how the Book of Daniel clearly existed in the 4th century B.C.

 

[Ben_Masada]

JL: Thanks, is there any historic evidence for this that I can read? Who closed the canon in the 3rd Century BCE, 2nd Century BCE, and so on? What scholars decided no more Prophets would rise? Was this official closing of the canon or opinion only?

**With regards to the development of the Jewish Bible Canon, you might want to check the Wikipedia website in the Free Cencyclopedia. It approaches a lot to the records at Judaica Studies of the 400 years between 200 BCE and 200 CE.

And for the realization that no more Prophets would rise, the realization reports much back to the time of Ezra, when the Jewish People returned from the Babylonian exile, and we had Ezra organize the Scriptures for us.

Moreover, under Divine inspiration, Jeremiah foretold that we would no longer need to be taught how to know the Lord, because we all would know Him through the Scriptures. (Jer. 31:34) In a way, the organized Scriptures would replace the Prophets.

Furthermore, it was then that Deuteronomy 30:11-14 found fulfilment, when we realized that the Scriptures, enjoined on us by Ezra, was not so mysterious and remote for us. It was not up in the sky, that we should say, “Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?” Nor it was across the sea, that we should say, “Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?” No, the Scriptures had become something very near to us, already in our own mouths and in our hearts; we had only to carry it out.**

 

[SimonArizona]

**With regards to the development of the Jewish Bible Canon, you might want to check the Wikipedia website in the Free Cencyclopedia. It approaches a lot to the records at Judaica Studies of the 400 years between 200 BCE and 200 CE.

And for the realization that no more Prophets would rise, the realization reports much back to the time of Ezra, when the Jewish People returned from the Babylonian exile, and we had Ezra organize the Scriptures for us.

Moreover, under Divine inspiration, Jeremiah foretold that we would no longer need to be taught how to know the Lord, because we all would know Him through the Scriptures. (Jer. 31:34) In a way, the organized Scriptures would replace the Prophets.**

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Where does this say “we will know him through the scriptures?”

 

[SimonArizona]

You do not understand that you have the Father, or can speak of the Father, because we, the Jews were the ones who brought Him to you and to all Mankind. If it were not for us, the Jews, you would have no idea of the Father or the true concept of God. This is only because God chose you, it is not of your own doing, in fact, God was patient with your continual disobedience.

Now, the only way you find to pay us back is by fabricating the idolatry that God incarnated as a man to implement Replacement Theology. Well my friend, we are not ready to give in the only right way to worship God, as Jesus himself declared that the Jews understand what they worship, while the Gentiles worship what they do not understand. (John 4:222-24)

 

[Ben_Masada]

When have Christians ever thought that Jesus was the only person ever crucified? The Gospels themselves tell of two robbers crucified left and right of Jesus, and tradition states that St. Peter the Apostle was crucified upside down.

The difference is that Christ was sinless, and did not deserve to die.

Yet you continue to avoid my questions. Your credibility slips every time you dodge my points and try to come up with a new attack. What startles me is that you think Josephus is a credible source for people being crucified in Judea, but you wantonly throw out his account of how the Book of Daniel clearly existed in the 4th century B.C.

You are the one dodging the evidences I bring to you by discarding what is supposed to embarrass all Catholics and Christians in general. If you deny the New American Bible with the Imprimatur of the Pope, your highest authority, it’s because you make of him a fool for having allowed his signature on a fake document. I guess I have no choice but to agree with you. No one will wonder about me, but about you, I could not say the same. So, I would suggest that you back up on this issue because you may make things get too ugly for the Church.

 

[EphelDuath]

You are the one dodging the evidences I bring to you by discarding what is supposed to embarrass all Catholics and Christians in general. If you deny the New American Bible with the Imprimatur of the Pope, your highest authority, it’s because you make of him a fool for having allowed his signature on a fake document.

I’ve already addressed this twice, so at this point, I’m just going to copy/paste my responses until you address them:

Regarding the approval to the NAB (a translation of the Bible which contains footnotes and other ideas that contradict orthodox Church teaching); it could have been a simple error, or it could’ve been intentional in good faith (Paul VI was rather liberal in some areas). Or, it could have been the case that the Imprimatur was only for the translation itself, and not for the footnotes or prefaces. I’d rather not speculate, but right now you’re just distracting from the issue at hand. The scholars that say that Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C. have to therefore conclude that Josephus’ history was an absolute fabrication (which you implicitly reject since you cite him for other things), and they additionally have to provide a plausible explanation for why Alexander peacefully annexed Israel into the Macedonian Empire.

The Church itself has no teachings regarding specific dates of scripture composition, beyond that which can be inferred from the texts themselves. Since secular historians say that the Book of Daniel existed in the 4th century B.C., it is up to you to prove why they’re largely incorrect.

I guess I have no choice but to agree with you. No one will wonder about me, but about you, I could not say the same. So, I would suggest that you back up on this issue because you may make things get too ugly for the Church.

Why would anything be ugly for the Church?