The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[Ben_Masada]

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Where does this say “we will know him through the scriptures?”

Not only Scriptures but also Prophets. Where is it written “Prophets” in the quote? Nowhere. But I understand you: You cannot see beyond the letter. Think! It’s not a sin to think. It’s rather a blessing. Who were the People aware of the Scriptures to teach the People? The Prophets. The expression, “And they shall teach no more…” is a reference to those who used to and could teach the People about the Lord: The Prophets, therefore. What neighbour would know about the Lord to teach? Think Simon, For one to teach about the Lord, Scriptures was the main medium. So, these two words “Scriptures” and
“Prophets” do not have to be there for the one who can think. If you still can’t get it, at least take in consideration that here is a Jew telling you about Jewish things.

 

[Ben_Masada]

This is only because God chose you, it is not of your own doing, in fact, God was patient with your continual disobedience.

There are also Christian jews who acknowledge the tri unity of one God.

**You never cease amazing me. It doesn’t matter what we or God has done through us in your favor, you have to spit some condenation as our “continual disobedience” or whatever
you mean by that. Mind you my friend, that whether we “continuously disobey” or not, of the other nations, the Lord will eventually make an end of them, but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. That’s in Jeremiah 46:28.

And about the former Jews who have converted to Christianity, they are part of the moribunds of Hosea 4:6, who are perishing for lack of knowledge. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ve already addressed this twice, so at this point, I’m just going to copy/paste my responses until you address them:

Regarding the approval to the NAB (a translation of the Bible which contains footnotes and other ideas that contradict orthodox Church teaching); it could have been a simple error, or it could’ve been intentional in good faith (Paul VI was rather liberal in some areas). Or, it could have been the case that the Imprimatur was only for the translation itself, and not for the footnotes or prefaces. I’d rather not speculate, but right now you’re just distracting from the issue at hand. The scholars that say that Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C. have to therefore conclude that Josephus’ history was an absolute fabrication (which you implicitly reject since you cite him for other things), and they additionally have to provide a plausible explanation for why Alexander peacefully annexed Israel into the Macedonian Empire.

The Church itself has no teachings regarding specific dates of scripture composition, beyond that which can be inferred from the texts themselves. Since secular historians say that the Book of Daniel existed in the 4th century B.C., it is up to you to prove why they’re largely incorrect.

Why would anything be ugly for the Church?

**If you keep on your attitude that the Pope committed an error or was a fool to sign his name on something that deserves no credit, that’s ugly. I have never heard of a Catholic admitting that much of a Pope. That’s heresy or apostasy. **

 

[EphelDuath]

**If you keep on your attitude that the Pope committed an error or was a fool to sign his name on something that deserves no credit, that’s ugly. I have never heard of a Catholic admitting that much of a Pope. That’s heresy or apostasy. **

You need to look up what Papal infallibility is. It isn’t what you think it means.

Furthermore, I have not said he was a fool, nor have I said that the NAB “deserves no credit.” These are your strawmen, which are not doing much in the way of distracting us from the argument at hand, which you once again avoid. If Christians are so obviously wrong on this issue, then stop fooling around with this nonsense and discredit us already.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The Book of Daniel was written during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV (167-164 BCE) with the purpose to strengthen and comfort the Jewish People in their ordeal.

I’ve read about this view, and the supposition is based entirely on the fact that there are such marvelously clear prophecies in it. Secular historians reason, “Well, they can’t have known about these things back then,” so they put the books at a later date. The sole reason for the Maccabeean dating is the power of the prophecies. However, even if they were right about the Maccabeean dating, this would not change the marvelous prophetic power of the books. Beyond the Maccabeean wars and Antiochus IV, the book also prophecies to the year when the Messiah would come, and that after His coming, Jerusalem would be destroyed. It says that after this, the kingdoms of men would be handed over to the saints of God, and it is directly after this that Christians became rulers over all the kingdoms of the known world. The prophecies are very powerful, even with the later date. But there is no reason to suppose the later date except that the other prophecies in the book are so powerful, so the whole point is ridiculous.

 

[simplynoone]

This is only because God chose you, it is not of your own doing, in fact, God was patient with your continual disobedience.

Statements like this one above always remind me of what the very wise Anne Frank said. “What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Jew does is thrown back at all Jews.”

Shall we blame YOU for all the atrocities committed by your past AND present leaders? If not, then stop the hypocrisy and listen to those who know what they are speaking about. John 4:22 <---- that is the words attributed to the one you claim to worship.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ve read about this view, and the supposition is based entirely on the fact that there are such marvelously clear prophecies in it. Secular historians reason, “Well, they can’t have known about these things back then,” so they put the books at a later date. The sole reason for the Maccabeean dating is the power of the prophecies. However, even if they were right about the Maccabeean dating, this would not change the marvelous prophetic power of the books. Beyond the Maccabeean wars and Antiochus IV, the book also prophecies to the year when the Messiah would come, and that after His coming, Jerusalem would be destroyed. It says that after this, the kingdoms of men would be handed over to the saints of God, and it is directly after this that Christians became rulers over all the kingdoms of the known world. The prophecies are very powerful, even with the later date. But there is no reason to suppose the later date except that the other prophecies in the book are so powerful, so the whole point is ridiculous.

That’s your interpretation based on preconceived Christian notions. I have posted the Jewish interpretation of that frame of Daniel 9:24-27 in this Forum, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. You are adulterating a Jewish scripture with an outside false interpretation. The book is Jewish and not Christian. Therefore, you should stay with Christianity and leave Judaism to the Jews.

 

[prochrist1]

Very interesting discussion!

I’m not to clear on the what the jews believe could you give me a crash course if you will
like more importantly what are your views on mary ? and also the torah laws

 

[EphelDuath]

That’s your interpretation based on preconceived Christian notions. I have posted the Jewish interpretation of that frame of Daniel 9:24-27 in this Forum, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. You are adulterating a Jewish scripture with an outside false interpretation. The book is Jewish and not Christian. Therefore, you should stay with Christianity and leave Judaism to the Jews.

Your only evidence that we are not interpreting this text correctly is refuted by Jewish historians themselves!

 

[humble_maid]

**You do not understand that you have the Father, or can speak of the Father, because we, the Jews were the ones who brought Him to you and to all Mankind. If it were not for us, the Jews, you would have no idea of the Father or the true concept of God. Now, the only way you find to pay us back is by fabricating the idolatry that God incarnated as a man to implement Replacement Theology. Well my friend, we are not ready to give in the only right way to worship God, as Jesus himself declared that the Jews understand what they worship, while the Gentiles worship what they do not understand. (John 4:222-24) **

Good Day,

Ben how should we pay the jews back for teaching us of the Almighty?
As for the scripture you gave I will explain again; perhaps you didn’t see my other post in reference to this scripture but here is how it is stated. Please continue to verses 25 through 26.

John 4:22-2422 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know. For salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. 24 God is a spirit: and they that adore him must adore him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ): therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things. **26 Jesus saith to her: I am he, who am speaking with thee. **

Description: The Sign of Immanuel
Prophecy: Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:18-23

messianicbible.com/prophecies.asp

 

[AdrianP]

What will happen after you’ll read these prophecies about Jesus? Tell us that other books were historical as well?

I. THE ACTUAL PROPHECIES

A. Concerning His Birth

1. Born of the seed of woman (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4; Matthew 1:20)
2. Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18, 24, 25)
3. Son of God (Psalm 2:7; Matthew 3:17)
4. Seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16) Here it is determined that the Messiah would be a Jewish descendant.
5. Son of Isaac (Genesis 21:12; Luke 3:23,34) Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. Now God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac.
6. Son of Jacob (Numbers 24:17; Luke 3:23,34) Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. Now God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac.
7. Tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23,33) Jacob had twelve sons and each became a tribe of the Hebrew nation. Now God eliminates eleven-twelfths of the lineage of Jacob.
8. Family line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1; Luke 3:23,32) Now God narrows it down even further by picking one family line out of the tribe of Judah.
9. House of David (Jeremiah 23:5; Luke 3:23,31) Jesse had at least eight sons (I Samuel 16:10,11). Now God eliminates all of Jesse’s sons except one, David.
10. Born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1) Now God eliminates all the cities in the world except one, Bethlehem.
11. Presented with gifts (Psalm 72:10; Isaiah 60:6; Matthew 2:1,11)
12. Herod kills children (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16)

B. Concerning His Nature

1. His Pre-Existence (Micah 5:2; Colossians 1:17; John 1:1)
2. He shall be called Lord (Psalm 110:1; Luke 20:41-44)
3. He shall be called Immanuel (“God with us”) (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23)
4. Shall be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18; Matthew 21:11)
5. Shall be a priest (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5,6)
6. Shall be a judge (Isaiah 33:22; John 5:30)
7. Shall be a king (Isaiah 33:22; Matthew 27:37)
8. Special anointment of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16,17)
9. He zeal for God (Psalm 69:9; John 2:15-17)

C. Concerning His Ministry

1. Preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 3:1,2)
2. Ministry to begin in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1,2; Matthew 4:12,13,17)
3. Ministry of miracles (Isaiah 35:5, 6a; Matthew 9:35)
4. Teacher of parables (Psalm 78:2; Matthew 13:34)
5. He was to enter the temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12)
6. He was to enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Luke 19:35,36,37a)
7. A “Stone Of Stumbling” to the Jewish nation (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
8. “Light” to the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3; 49:6; Acts 13:47,48a)

D. Concerning Events After His Burial

1. His resurrection (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31)
2. His ascension (Psalm 68:18a; Acts 1:9)
3. Seated at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

E. Prophecies Fulfilled In One Day

The following 29 prophecies from the Old Testament, which speak of the betrayal, trial, death and burial of Jesus, were spoken at various times by many different voices during the five centuries from 1000-500 BC, and yet all of them were literally fulfilled in one twenty-four hour period of time in Jesus’ life.

1. Betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Matthew 10:4)
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15)
3. Money to be thrown down in God’s house (Zechariah 11:13b; Matthew 27:5a)
4. Price given for potter’s filed (Zechariah 11:13b; Matthew 27:7)

In the previous four prophecies we find in both prophecy and fulfillment the following:

1. Betrayed
2. By a friend
3. For 30 pieces of silver (not 29)
4. Silver (not gold)
5. Thrown down (not placed)
6. In God’s house
7. Money used to buy potter’s field
8. Forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50)
9. Accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11; Matthew 26:59-61)
10. Mute before accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-19)
11. Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26)
12. Smitten and spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Micah 5:1; Matthew 26:67)
13. Mocked (Psalm 22:7,8; Matthew 27:31)
14. Fell under the cross (Psalm 109:24; John 19:17; Luke 23:26)
15. Hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33)
16. Crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
17. Made intercession for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
18. Rejected by his own people (Isaiah 53:3; John 7:5,48)
19. Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25)
20. Friends stood afar off (Psalm 38:11; Luke 23:49)
21. People shook their heads (Psalm 109:25; Matthew 27:39)
22. Stared upon (Psalm 22:17; Luke 23:35)
23. Garments parted and lots cast (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23,24)
24. Suffered thirst (Pslam 69:21; John 19:28)
25. Gall and vinegar offered Him (Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34)
26. His forsaken cry (Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)
27. Committed Himself to God (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46)
28. His bones not broken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33)
29. His heart broken (Psalm 22:14; John 19:34) The blood and water which came from Jesus’ pierced side are evidences that the heart had literally burst.
30. His side pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
31. Darkness over the land (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45)
32. Buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

 

[AdrianP]

cynet.com/Jesus/PROPHECY/ntquoted.htm

 

[Ben_Masada]

Very interesting discussion!

I’m not to clear on the what the jews believe could you give me a crash course if you will
like more importantly what are your views on mary ? and also the torah laws

About what we believe, you are going to be more specific. Regarding what we think about Mary, she was a Jewish lady from the Tribe of Levi according to Luke 1:5,36, the wife of Joseph and mother of several children, being Jesus her firstborn with Joseph.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Your only evidence that we are not interpreting this text correctly is refuted by Jewish historians themselves!

For example… Don’t forget to put down Biblical quotations. I find them indispensable.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Good Day,

Ben how should we pay the jews back for teaching us of the Almighty?
As for the scripture you gave I will explain again; perhaps you didn’t see my other post in reference to this scripture but here is how it is stated. Please continue to verses 25 through 26.

John 4:22-2422 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know. For salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. 24 God is a spirit: and they that adore him must adore him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ): therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things. **26 Jesus saith to her: I am he, who am speaking with thee. **

Description: The Sign of Immanuel
Prophecy: Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:18-23

One way to pay us back for having brought to you the right concept of the true God, would be by stopping teaching a wrong concept of God. We have never taught about a God incarnated as a man.

Anyone with the least of commonsense, when reading John 4:22-24 can easily understand
that verses 25 and 26 have nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about. Therefore, it is an interpolation either by the gospel writer or by the Church, with the purpose to promote the Pauline doctrine that Jesus was the Messiah. The idea that Jesus was Christ
was born with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.

The sign of Immanuel given in Isaiah 7:14, the answer is given in Isaiah 8:8. That Immanuel is Judah, the Jewish People. In fact, the Prophet identifies Immanuel by name with Judah. Then, the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew plagiarized it by claiming that Jesus was the fulfillment of it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

What will happen after you’ll read these prophecies about Jesus? Tell us that other books were historical as well?

No, I will tell you that they have nothing to do with Jesus. That you are assuming everything based on preconceived Christian notions. That’s all. I would tell you what they all point to, but you have written too much. Be more specific and I will tell you what they are about.

I. THE ACTUAL PROPHECIES

A. Concerning His Birth

1. Born of the seed of woman (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4; Matthew 1:20)
2. Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18, 24, 25)
3. Son of God (Psalm 2:7; Matthew 3:17)
4. Seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16) Here it is determined that the Messiah would be a Jewish descendant.
5. Son of Isaac (Genesis 21:12; Luke 3:23,34) Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. Now God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac.
6. Son of Jacob (Numbers 24:17; Luke 3:23,34) Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. Now God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac.
7. Tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23,33) Jacob had twelve sons and each became a tribe of the Hebrew nation. Now God eliminates eleven-twelfths of the lineage of Jacob.
8. Family line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1; Luke 3:23,32) Now God narrows it down even further by picking one family line out of the tribe of Judah.
9. House of David (Jeremiah 23:5; Luke 3:23,31) Jesse had at least eight sons (I Samuel 16:10,11). Now God eliminates all of Jesse’s sons except one, David.
10. Born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1) Now God eliminates all the cities in the world except one, Bethlehem.
11. Presented with gifts (Psalm 72:10; Isaiah 60:6; Matthew 2:1,11)
12. Herod kills children (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16)

B. Concerning His Nature

1. His Pre-Existence (Micah 5:2; Colossians 1:17; John 1:1)
2. He shall be called Lord (Psalm 110:1; Luke 20:41-44)
3. He shall be called Immanuel (“God with us”) (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23)
4. Shall be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18; Matthew 21:11)
5. Shall be a priest (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5,6)
6. Shall be a judge (Isaiah 33:22; John 5:30)
7. Shall be a king (Isaiah 33:22; Matthew 27:37)
8. Special anointment of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16,17)
9. He zeal for God (Psalm 69:9; John 2:15-17)

C. Concerning His Ministry

1. Preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 3:1,2)
2. Ministry to begin in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1,2; Matthew 4:12,13,17)
3. Ministry of miracles (Isaiah 35:5, 6a; Matthew 9:35)
4. Teacher of parables (Psalm 78:2; Matthew 13:34)
5. He was to enter the temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12)
6. He was to enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Luke 19:35,36,37a)
7. A “Stone Of Stumbling” to the Jewish nation (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
8. “Light” to the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3; 49:6; Acts 13:47,48a)

D. Concerning Events After His Burial

1. His resurrection (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31)
2. His ascension (Psalm 68:18a; Acts 1:9)
3. Seated at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

E. Prophecies Fulfilled In One Day

The following 29 prophecies from the Old Testament, which speak of the betrayal, trial, death and burial of Jesus, were spoken at various times by many different voices during the five centuries from 1000-500 BC, and yet all of them were literally fulfilled in one twenty-four hour period of time in Jesus’ life.

1. Betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Matthew 10:4)
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15)
3. Money to be thrown down in God’s house (Zechariah 11:13b; Matthew 27:5a)
4. Price given for potter’s filed (Zechariah 11:13b; Matthew 27:7)

In the previous four prophecies we find in both prophecy and fulfillment the following:

1. Betrayed
2. By a friend
3. For 30 pieces of silver (not 29)
4. Silver (not gold)
5. Thrown down (not placed)
6. In God’s house
7. Money used to buy potter’s field
8. Forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50)
9. Accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11; Matthew 26:59-61)
10. Mute before accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-19)
11. Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26)
12. Smitten and spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Micah 5:1; Matthew 26:67)
13. Mocked (Psalm 22:7,8; Matthew 27:31)
14. Fell under the cross (Psalm 109:24; John 19:17; Luke 23:26)
15. Hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33)
16. Crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
17. Made intercession for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
18. Rejected by his own people (Isaiah 53:3; John 7:5,48)
19. Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25)
20. Friends stood afar off (Psalm 38:11; Luke 23:49)
21. People shook their heads (Psalm 109:25; Matthew 27:39)
22. Stared upon (Psalm 22:17; Luke 23:35)
23. Garments parted and lots cast (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23,24)
24. Suffered thirst (Pslam 69:21; John 19:28)
25. Gall and vinegar offered Him (Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34)
26. His forsaken cry (Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)
27. Committed Himself to God (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46)
28. His bones not broken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33)
29. His heart broken (Psalm 22:14; John 19:34) The blood and water which came from Jesus’ pierced side are evidences that the heart had literally burst.
30. His side pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
31. Darkness over the land (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45)
32. Buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

 

[EphelDuath]

For example… Don’t forget to put down Biblical quotations. I find them indispensable.

They’re indispensable when they’re used to refute your arguments. But when you want to use secular sources to prove * your *points – well, then they’re alright, obviously!

I will repeat this over and over again until you answer my point. You think Josephus is a reliable source, but you do not believe him and other Jewish historians when they say that the Book of Daniel existed in the 4th century B.C.

 

[jlhargus]

**With regards to the development of the Jewish Bible Canon, you might want to check the Wikipedia website in the Free Cencyclopedia. It approaches a lot to the records at Judaica Studies of the 400 years between 200 BCE and 200 CE.

And for the realization that no more Prophets would rise, the realization reports much back to the time of Ezra, when the Jewish People returned from the Babylonian exile, and we had Ezra organize the Scriptures for us.**

JL: So no more Prophets was not officially proclaimed as the Word of God, but only the opinion of some?
Ben Masada;5762753:

Moreover, under Divine inspiration, Jeremiah foretold that we would no longer need to be taught how to know the Lord, because we all would know Him through the Scriptures. (Jer. 31:34) In a way, the organized Scriptures would replace the Prophets.

JL: But isn’t Jeremiah prophecing a NEW COVENANT? Where does he say anything about scripture? If as you say, all would know Him through Scriptures, wouldn’t it be necessary to have new scripture in order to know the new covenant, which is NOT LIKE the covenant He made with their fathers?

Furthermore, it was then that Deuteronomy 30:11-14 found fulfilment, when we realized that the Scriptures, enjoined on us by Ezra, was not so mysterious and remote for us. It was not up in the sky, that we should say, “Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?” Nor it was across the sea, that we should say, “Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?” No, the Scriptures had become something very near to us, already in our own mouths and in our hearts; we had only to carry it out.

JL: But isn’t it one thing to have the Scriptures very near in ones mouth and heart, yet not carry it out?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

One way to pay us back for having brought to you the right concept of the true God, would be by stopping teaching a wrong concept of God. We have never taught about a God incarnated as a man.

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, ** Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,** Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

Daniel 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Anyone with the least of commonsense, when reading John 4:22-24 can easily understand
that verses 25 and 26 have nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about.

Nonsense. You’re judging it based purely on your own preconceptions. Jesus had just given her a sophisticated glimpse into spiritual practice in the future, and there are at least three possibilities following. One is your explanation that it’s an interpolation. Another is that what He’d told her was a bit over her head, so she said, “I know when the Messiah comes, he will explain everything.” A third is that she was guessing because of how He’d been behaving and teaching her (and possibly what she’d already heard from popular conjectures among Jesus’ admirers) that He was the Messiah, and she wanted to draw Him out. I see a strong continuity. You’re allowing prejudice to blind you.

Therefore, it is an interpolation either by the gospel writer or by the Church, with the purpose to promote the Pauline doctrine that Jesus was the Messiah. The idea that Jesus was Christ
was born with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.

Nonsense, it’s found in all four Gospels, and Paul said he got his doctrine from Peter (who, in his surviving epistles, supported Paul’s teaching). There’s no evidence to back this supposition of yours, but numerous references in the Gospels exclude it.

The sign of Immanuel given in Isaiah 7:14, the answer is given in Isaiah 8:8. That Immanuel is Judah, the Jewish People. In fact, the Prophet identifies Immanuel by name with Judah. Then, the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew plagiarized it by claiming that Jesus was the fulfillment of it.

Prophecies don’t always have just one fulfillment. Often they have several working together.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

That’s your interpretation based on preconceived Christian notions. I have posted the Jewish interpretation of that frame of Daniel 9:24-27 in this Forum, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. You are adulterating a Jewish scripture with an outside false interpretation. The book is Jewish and not Christian. Therefore, you should stay with Christianity and leave Judaism to the Jews.

Christianity is built on Judaism. The Old Testament is the foundation on which the New stands.

Besides, in Isaiah 42, we read:

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his law the islands will put their hope."

5 This is what God the LORD says—
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:

6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 "I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you."

The truth is to be illuminated to the Gentiles, and to the nations, plural, not to Israel alone. This is a glorious mystery that God brought about. The Gentiles are not to be excluded but grafted into the light under the Messiah. Therefore it is wrong for you to say I have no right to your scriptures.