The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

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Ben_Masada said:
One way to pay us back for having brought to you the right concept of the true God, would be by stopping teaching a wrong concept of God. We have never taught about a God incarnated as a man.

Anyone with the least of commonsense, when reading John 4:22-24 can easily understand
that verses 25 and 26 have nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about. Therefore, it is an interpolation either by the gospel writer or by the Church, with the purpose to promote the Pauline doctrine that Jesus was the Messiah. The idea that Jesus was Christ
was born with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.

The sign of Immanuel given in Isaiah 7:14, the answer is given in Isaiah 8:8. That Immanuel is Judah, the Jewish People. In fact, the Prophet identifies Immanuel by name with Judah. Then, the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew plagiarized it by claiming that Jesus was the fulfillment of it.
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Dear Ben

How are you? I feel like you feeling weighted down. Ben when you make such accusations as those of which I emphasized in bold, the burden of proof is upon you to back up these notions of ‘interpolation’ and ‘plagiarizing’. Where are your sources? And please refrain from using our NT scriptures since in your eyes they cannot be trusted. Let us use the OT. I think you would be more comfortable with that.

Also, if it pleases you to refer to Jeremiah 31 and to my previous post.
 
Ben
No, I will tell you that they have nothing to do with Jesus. That you are assuming everything based on preconceived Christian notions. That’s all. I would tell you what they all point to, but you have written too much. Be more specific and I will tell you what they are about.

Humble Maid
This was your response to AdrianP’s post#111. Firstly, Adrian got very specific with all those scriptures. I would like to ask you to choose the last few and explain to me what they point to. Secondly, the prophecies could not have been preconceived notions of Christians since they were not around when they were written by jewish prophets. These prophecies were fulfilled completely in Jesus. This would be astronomically impossible for anyone to fullfill all the prophecies by fraudulence; so the apostles, including Paul, could not have made this up. This was divine intervention.
 
Ben_Masada said:
The sign of Immanuel given in Isaiah 7:14, the answer is given in Isaiah 8:8. That Immanuel is Judah, the Jewish People. In fact, the Prophet identifies Immanuel by name with Judah. Then, the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew plagiarized it by claiming that Jesus was the fulfillment of it.
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Emmanual (Septuagint Emmanouel; A.V., Immanuel) signifies “God with us” (Matthew 1:23), and is the name of the child predicted in Isaiah 7:14: “Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel”.
•The Emmanuel is the Messias foretold in the other prophecies of Isaias. In Isaiah 8:8, Palestine is called the land of Emmanuel, though in other passage it is termed the land or the inheritance of Yahweh (Isaiah 14:2, 25; 47:6; Hosea 9:3; Jeremiah 2:7; 12:14; etc), so that Emmanuel and Yahweh are identified.

The question why the Messias was called Emmanuel, or “God with us”, admits of a double answer: the name is a pledge of Divine help and also a description of the nature of the Messias. King Achaz had not believed the Prophet’s first promise of deliverance from his enemies, Rasin, King of Syria, and Phacee, King of Israel (Isaiah 7:1-9). And when the Prophet tried a second time to restore his confidence, Achaz refused to ask for the sign which God was ready to grant in confirmation of the prophetic promise (7:10-12). The Prophet, therefore, forces, in a way, King Achaz to confide in God, showing that the Messias, the hope of Israel and the glory of the house of David, implies by his very name “Emmanuel”, or “God with us”, the Divine presence among his people. A number of the Fathers, e.g. St. Irenaeus, Lactantius, St. Epiphanius, St. Chrysostom, and Theodoret, regard the name “Emmanuel”, not merely as a pledge of Divine assistance, but also as an expression of the mystery of the Incarnation by virtue of which the Messias will be “God with us” in very deed.

Source: APA citation. Maas, A. (1909). Emmanuel. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved October 1, 2009 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/05404a.htm

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
 
EphelDuath said:
:rolleyes:

They’re indispensable when they’re used to refute your arguments. But when you want to use secular sources to prove * your *points – well, then they’re alright, obviously!

I will repeat this over and over again until you answer my point. You think Josephus is a reliable source, but you do not believe him and other Jewish historians when they say that the Book of Daniel existed in the 4th century B.C.
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**Well, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Tell me which book of his and under what chapter. **
 
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humble_maid:
Dear Ben

How are you? I feel like you feeling weighted down. Ben when you make such accusations as those of which I emphasized in bold, the burden of proof is upon you to back up these notions of ‘interpolation’ and ‘plagiarizing’. Where are your sources? And please refrain from using our NT scriptures since in your eyes they cannot be trusted. Let us use the OT. I think you would be more comfortable with that.

Also, if it pleases you to refer to Jeremiah 31 and to my previous post.

**You are funny, did you know? The NT writers plagiarize the Tanakh to present Jesus as the fulfiller of prophecies and you want me to quote only the Tanakh to prove it. I have to use only the NT to prove it. **
 
humble_maid said:
Ben
No, I will tell you that they have nothing to do with Jesus. That you are assuming everything based on preconceived Christian notions. That’s all. I would tell you what they all point to, but you have written too much. Be more specific and I will tell you what they are about.

Humble Maid
This was your response to AdrianP’s post#111. Firstly, Adrian got very specific with all those scriptures. I would like to ask you to choose the last few and explain to me what they point to. Secondly, the prophecies could not have been preconceived notions of Christians since they were not around when they were written by jewish prophets. These prophecies were fulfilled completely in Jesus. This would be astronomically impossible for anyone to fullfill all the prophecies by fraudulence; so the apostles, including Paul, could not have made this up. This was divine intervention.
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Assumption is the name. Yes, they were written many, many years before Chritianity. Then, when Christianity came they collected them together and plagiarized at their heart’s content and assumed that they meant Jesus. Don’t give me a list of a thousand assumptions because I don’t have only your post to reply to. Mention to me the prophecy you want to hear what I have to say about it and I will.
 
humble_maid said:
Emmanual (Septuagint Emmanouel; A.V., Immanuel) signifies “God with us” (Matthew 1:23), and is the name of the child predicted in Isaiah 7:14: “Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel”.
•The Emmanuel is the Messias foretold in the other prophecies of Isaias. In Isaiah 8:8, Palestine is called the land of Emmanuel, though in other passage it is termed the land or the inheritance of Yahweh (Isaiah 14:2, 25; 47:6; Hosea 9:3; Jeremiah 2:7; 12:14; etc), so that Emmanuel and Yahweh are identified.

The question why the Messias was called Emmanuel, or “God with us”, admits of a double answer: the name is a pledge of Divine help and also a description of the nature of the Messias. King Achaz had not believed the Prophet’s first promise of deliverance from his enemies, Rasin, King of Syria, and Phacee, King of Israel (Isaiah 7:1-9). And when the Prophet tried a second time to restore his confidence, Achaz refused to ask for the sign which God was ready to grant in confirmation of the prophetic promise (7:10-12). The Prophet, therefore, forces, in a way, King Achaz to confide in God, showing that the Messias, the hope of Israel and the glory of the house of David, implies by his very name “Emmanuel”, or “God with us”, the Divine presence among his people. A number of the Fathers, e.g. St. Irenaeus, Lactantius, St. Epiphanius, St. Chrysostom, and Theodoret, regard the name “Emmanuel”, not merely as a pledge of Divine assistance, but also as an expression of the mystery of the Incarnation by virtue of which the Messias will be “God with us” in very deed.
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**Good! Let us focus on Immanuel, that child born of the Virgin of Isaiah 7:14. “Behold, the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel.”

Before we know who is the Virgin, let us read verse 15. “The son shall be living on butter and honey…” Now, verse 22. “Butter and honey shall be the food of all who remain in the Land…” What Land? The Land of Israel. Who remained in the Land of Israel after the Ten Tribes were removed for good? Judah. So, the Prophet is talking about Judah who remained in the Land.

Now, please, we can read Isaiah 8:8. Here, the Prophet is talking about the Assyrians when they invaded Judah like a huge river overflowing the channels all over the Land of Judah. Verse 8: “And it shall pass into Judah and flood it all throughout; up to the neck it shall reach. It shall spread its wings the full width of your Land Immanuel.”

Would you please tell me again whose Land is the Prophet talking about? The Land of Judah. And Isaiah identifies Immanuel with Judah by saying: “Of your Land Immanuel.” Can anything be more clear that the Prophet is identifying Immanuel with Judah? I didn’t think so.

Now, about the Virgin, that I promised to tell you who is she: You can open your Bible in Amos 5:2. The virgin is Israel, the Kingdom of the North. The giving birth to Judah, it is symbolized by God’s complete rejection of Israel and confirmation of Judah, as you can see in Psalm 78:67-69

Now, you can go right ahead and tell me about another prophecy which you think points to Jesus.**
 
RickHolland said:
Hi Ben,

How does the Jewish people deal with Isaiah 53? Jesus historically, in both secular and theological circles, was the fulfillment.

home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/isaiah53.htm

Thanks,

rick
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We believe that Isaiah 53 is rather very clear. Being the consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that no one has to assume that he could have been a single individual. Read Isaiah 41:8,9;44:1,2,21; 45:4.
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Well, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Tell me which book of his and under what chapter. **
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Book XI, chp. 8, sec. 5 of Antiquities of the Jews
And when the Book of Daniel was showed him (23) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present; but the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him; whereupon the high priest desired that they might enjoy the laws of their forefathers, and might pay no tribute on the seventh year. He granted all they desired.
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Source
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Ben, listen to this. If all religions would be in contact with God like Orthodox Christians are, on the face of the Earth probably would be a single religion, probably Orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity has Jesus prayer path that enables people not only speaking with God but also visiting heaven from this life.
 
Ben_Masada said:
We believe that Isaiah 53 is rather very clear. Being the consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that no one has to assume that he could have been a single individual. Read Isaiah 41:8,9;44:1,2,21; 45:4.
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41:8-9 says specifically it is Israel as the reference, can’t be the Messiah.
44:1-2 (cf Deut) 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

Again a reference to Israel, not the Christ.

45:4 ???

How is it that the Christ is not a single individual; are you waiting for more than one Messiah or am I misunderstnading you?

How is that you do not see that Jesus is the fulfillment of Isaiah 53; is it because of the following; just as God has said?

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in {our} speech, and {are} not like Moses, {who} used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
 
One thing about Christianity that Ben may not Know. Jesus had not come to punish but raher to gather , to help, so it does not matter wha have you done before. If you change you are welcome inside Christianity. Also you can confess and previous sins are forgiven.

Ben,please listen to This:
When blessing God, people can bless also Word of God or Son or Christ and Spirit of God :

The Word (the Logos) of God

The fourth Gospel of John[6] opens with a hymn of revelation identifying Christ as the divine Logos, or Word, that formed the universe and the divine nature of Jesus Christ [7]:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made…
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us;
and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth…
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him”

When blessing God don’t utter bad words against Word of God or Spirit of God.

This si a verse from Genesis about Spirit of God:
Genesis 1:2
…And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters…

Its not nice to say good word about somebody and then utter bad words at his right and left arms.

Genesis speak about Word of God too:
Genesis 15:
1 After these things** the word of the LORD **came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.

2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. "

**So Ben, who is the shield of Abraham? **Genesis 15:1 Word of God , or Son of God, or Christ.
**So Ben, who promised to Abraham children like the number of stars? **Genesis 15:4and 5 , Word of God or Son of God or Jesus.

May God bless everybody.
 
I will be brief for this one. Can you please explain the scripture of Genesis 1:26.

26 And G-d said: ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth’

Who was God referring to when He said ‘Let us…’.
 
Ben Masada,

I have been going through your posts…about the Suffering Servant, yes there are sources within the Church that see that as the Servant Israel…

But if I could please, you should check out Hebrewcatholic.org.

Here are many Jewish people who have found fulfillment in Christ through the Catholic Church, and are now experiencing a much deeper and more profound sense of Jewish identity than before. I find their forum very interesting and how they connect the Old and New Testaments I have not seen elsewhere.
 
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