The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[AdrianP]

So you say Micaiah prophecized that Israel that already existed would be born in Bethlehem? Does it make any sense whatsoever?
““But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.””

How Israel will be a ruler over Israel? How about Israel that comprised 12 tribes will come from a clan of Judah? Makes it any sense?

 

[simple_soul]

A lot of this, what was posted, is simply replacement theology since the Tanakh already declares who is who. Take for instance, God’s servant … that is declared already in Isaiah 49:3. By the way, how can a person be catholic AND Jew at the same time? Even Jesus knew this to be impossible Matthew 6:24.

Dear Simplynoone,

I believe that understanding God as Jesus taught us to understand Him is not making God a different God than the Israelites believe in but letting us know the same God better than we did before.

Always praying and pondering

 

[simple_soul]

A lot of this, what was posted, is simply replacement theology since the Tanakh already declares who is who. Take for instance, God’s servant … that is declared already in Isaiah 49:3. By the way, how can a person be catholic AND Jew at the same time? Even Jesus knew this to be impossible Matthew 6:24.

Dear Simplynoone,

Matthew 6:24

“No sevent can be the slave of two masters; for either he will hate the first and love the second, or he will be devoted to the to the first and think nothing of the second. You can not serve God and money.”

In the context above, how does two masters, God and money, equal catholic or jewish?

Always praying and pondering

 

[Kaninchen]

This criticism rather presupposes that it would be possible to invent such a myth, and also that Christianity pre-dates the New Testament.

Certainly presupposes the former, in the case of the latter it merely presupposes the existence of an author/authors.

 

[Kaninchen]

Dear Kaninchen,

I believe with my whole soul, whole heart, and whole mind that the only one who makes Jesus “fit” all sorts of passages in the Tanakh (Old Testament to me) whether they’re messianic or not, is God Himself, through His Word and through His Spirit.

God bless you always.

Always praying and pondering,

Which is why you’re a Christian!

 

[Ben_Masada]

41:8-9 says specifically it is Israel as the reference, can’t be the Messiah.
44:1-2 (cf Deut) 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

Again a reference to Israel, not the Christ.

45:4 ???

How is it that the Christ is not a single individual; are you waiting for more than one Messiah or am I misunderstnading you?

How is that you do not see that Jesus is the fulfillment of Isaiah 53; is it because of the following; just as God has said?

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in {our} speech, and {are} not like Moses, {who} used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

You are misunderstanding me. It is Logic and obvious that the Messiah cannot be a single individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life, and then dies. Are we supposed to expect a Messiah in every generation? It makes no sense. The Messiah is the People. Jeremiah says that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will stop functioning properly. (Jer. 31:35,36. This means permanence of existence. No wonder Isaiah identifies the Messiah as Israel. If you read all chapter 53 of Isaiah and immediately Psalm 44:10-24, you will understand the confirmation of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.

 

[Ben_Masada]

**So Ben, who is the shield of Abraham? **Genesis 15:1 Word of God , or Son of God, or Christ.
**So Ben, who promised to Abraham children like the number of stars? **Genesis 15:4and 5 , Word of God or Son of God or Jesus.

May God bless everybody.

**The Shield of Abraham was the Almighty Himself, blessed be He.

The Almighty Himself, blessed be He, was the One Who promised Abraham children like the number of stars. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I will be brief for this one. Can you please explain the scripture of Genesis 1:26.

26 And G-d said: ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth’

Who was God referring to when He said ‘Let us…’.

Good question Humble maid! As good an answer you have in my thread,
“Personification of Attributes.” I recommend it to you, and I pray that you will understand. It is too Philosophical.

 

[AdrianP]

It does not make sense what you’re saying since Daniel prophecized the time Messiah will be born .Israel is not born in bethlehem out of Judah. Does not make sense what you’re saying.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada,

I have been going through your posts…about the Suffering Servant, yes there are sources within the Church that see that as the Servant Israel…

But if I could please, you should check out Hebrewcatholic.org.

Here are many Jewish people who have found fulfillment in Christ through the Catholic Church, and are now experiencing a much deeper and more profound sense of Jewish identity than before. I find their forum very interesting and how they connect the Old and New Testaments I have not seen elsewhere.

Thanks Kathleen, but I have been to Hebrewcatholic.org from another recommendation
but they declined my application after three days that they asked to check somethings
about me. Probably, they checked Catholic Answers Forum to give me the “No, you cannot join us.” They must be afraid of something to throw away the chance to get another Jew.

 

[AdrianP]

Since you’re in Jerusalem, next year you may go to witness for yourself the Holy Light coming from above every year. This happens in the Church of Holy Sepulcher, the very place Word of God resurrected, showing he has power over death holyfire.org/eng/velich.htm
I do think this miracle that at one time takes the shape of a Column of Light, similar with the one that guided Jews through desert, is leading people to the right Faith.

 

[simple_soul]

Which is why you’re a Christian!

 

[Ben_Masada]

It is weird, I never considered myself a gentile. I have always thought I was a part of Israel understanding that since Jesus came He established the New Covenant and since He taught us that God is the Father of everyone? Anyway I can relate to a lot of movement by the Holy Spirit but I think it is happening in everyones hearts. There are days that I sense it so much that I get goose bumps from it.

Always praying and pondering

Jesus did not establish any New Covenant, but rather confirmed the Old Covenant down to the letter. Read Matthew 5:17-19. If you insist that he established anything new, you are contradicting his own words. The one who established your New Covenant was Paul if you read Galatians 4:21-31, after he abolished what Jesus did not. (Mat. 5:17)

 

[Ben_Masada]

So you say Micaiah prophecized that Israel that already existed would be born in Bethlehem? Does it make any sense whatsoever?
““But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.””

How Israel will be a ruler over Israel? How about Israel that comprised 12 tribes will come from a clan of Judah? Makes it any sense?

**I will take this one. When the Israelites entered Canaan, Bethlehem was assigned to Judah for his inheritance and Capital of the Tribe. Then, King David was born in the Tribe of Judah in Bethlehem. That’s the one who became ruler over all Israel, Micaiah is referring to. It could never be Jesus because he never became ruler over even a small city in Israel.
The Kingdom he used to speak about was esoteric; within each one of us.

And King David was only the type pointing to the archetype in Judah, the Kingdom of the South, which would eventually become the Government over the whole Land of Israel, after the Kingdom of the North (Ephraim) was removed from existence by mixing itself with the world pool of the Gentiles. (Psalm 78:67-69)

The expression, “Whose origins are from old, from ancient times,” is a reference to God Himself. It means that the Jewish People were in the designs of God for this purpose. If you want to check for this reference, you can read Genesis 8:21,22 with Jeremiah 31:35,36.

When God promised Noah that He would never allow another catastrophe to hit mankind again, as the Flood had just finished, He established the Noahite Covenant with all Mankind and set it parallel with the fixity of the natural laws. As Jeremiah read that, he understood it to be connected with Israel who was still to rise. Then, he declared under Divine inspiration that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will cease to function properly. We all know that if this ever happens, universal catastrophes will end with Mankind, as it happened to the Dinosaurs. **

 

[AdrianP]

Time frame for prophecy of Daniel does not match with King David.

 

[AdrianP]

Daniel 2
The dream of Nebuchadnezzar explained by Daniel , prophecies about the Kingdom of Rock that would last forever and never be destroyed. this is Christianity. Few know that when Jesus came to Earth to make his Church he setup also a Church in Heaven that will never be Destroyed:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+2&version=KJV
"36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. "

 

[w_stewart]

Ben I asked who was Isaiah 50:6 referring to if not Jesus. You offered no answer other than saying it could not be Jesus.

For the second time I ask you:

If it was not Jesus, who was he?

 

[Ben_Masada]

It does not make sense what you’re saying since Daniel prophecized the time Messiah will be born .Israel is not born in bethlehem out of Judah. Does not make sense what you’re saying.

**Well, in that case, allow me to put some more sense in what I am saying. First of all,
Daniel did not prophesy anything because he was not a Prophet. If you check the website about the Prophets of Israel, it will show you 55 Prophets and Daniel is not one of them. Second, the Book of Daniel is not among the prophetic books but historical ones. It means the Book is not prophetic but written after the facts. That’s what History is.

Do you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah? I believe you do. So,
mind you that Isaiah indentifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that you don’t have to
assume that he could be a single individual. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. The Suffering Servant was Israel (Ephraim) until he was removed from existence in a symbolical death to redeem Judah, whom God had promised David to remain forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem. (I Kings 11:36) That’s when God rejected the Ten of Joseph and confirmed Judah forever. (Psalm 78:67-69) Messiah ben Joseph was gone, while Messiah ben David has remained as the Triumphant Servant.

True that Israel was not born in Bethlehem out of Judah, if you put it that way, but according to Isaiah 48:1 the House of Jacob, called by the (new) name of Israel from the stock of Judah,
yes, it becomes a reference to Bethlehem, the original place for the stock of Judah.**

 

[w_stewart]

**No, all the Jewish People throughout their ordeal of a History of suffering. Read Psalm 44:11-23. Literally, Nazis would drag Jews in the streets by their beards. Isaiah was refering to the thousands of Jews murdered by the Christian Crusades, and the thousands burned alive during the Christian “Autos-da-Fe” of the Inquisition. Not to talk about Christian pogroms against Jews throughout Europe for many years. **

Sure. All Jews had suffered. But definitely not all Jews Isaiah was referring to in 50:6.

Isaiah 50:6

6I gave my back to those who struck me,
and my cheeks to those who pulled out the beard;
I did not hide my face
from insult and spitting.

It appears to me Isaiah was referring to ONE person only and not a multitude.

**Isaiah has identified the Suffering Servant with Israel by name. (Isa. 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4) **

Jacob no, but Israel was. The House of Jacob from the stock of Judah, according to Isaiah 48:1, can never be slaughtered. If this could ever happen, the whole of Mankind would have to go. Read Jeremiah 31:35,36. Israel was slaughtered so that Jacob could live. Israel was the Messiah ben Joseph who had to die for the sins of many. Mind you,
“many”, not “all”. (Isa. 53:11,12) Many here are those of Judah, or Messiah ben David, the Triumphant Servant, in whose life depends the safety of all Mankind.

So Jacob was Isaiah referring to?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Since you’re in Jerusalem, next year you may go to witness for yourself the Holy Light coming from above every year. This happens in the Church of Holy Sepulcher, the very place Word of God resurrected, showing he has power over death holyfire.org/eng/velich.htm
I do think this miracle that at one time takes the shape of a Column of Light, similar with the one that guided Jews through desert, is leading people to the right Faith.

**I have been to the Holy Sepulcher more than several times. Really inside to see the place where Jesus had been laid to rest. How sure are you that Jesus resurrected? Do you have any eyewitness at all in you own NT to mention to me as an evidence? If you do, the Catholic Church is in business to recruit this Jew into its ranks. But if you can’t, I hope you won’t let pride speak louder than commonsense by stiffnecking yourself against Logic.

Are you calling that light the Monks at the Holy Sepulcher make it rise in the form of a column of light a miracle? If so, you are either a hot fundamentalist or too romantic with your church. Either way, you are not ready for the truth about anything that goes against your preconceived views. You remind me of the kind of patient the Doctor is afraid to report a terminal disease to, lest he commits suicide.**