The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

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That’s fine. Just sure to keep any references in proper and full quotation. If the author of the New American Bible’s preface to the Book of Daniel had no problem with the facts of authorship/composition of the Book of Daniel then I have none. That doesn’t change anything about any correlations between New Testament events and what is written in the Book of Daniel.
 
Ben_Masada said:
The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT but it will explode all the same as to bring down one of the pillars of Christianity. T stands for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim. Torah is the Law, Neviim are the prophetic books, and Ketuvim, are the historical or literary books.

According to Judaism, there were 55 Prophets in the History of Israel, and Daniel was not one of them. Therefore, when the Jewish Canon was organized, the book of Daniel was not taken in consideration as a prophetic book. So, the book of Daniel was accounted among the historical books of the Tanakh.

Why? How could such a book as the book of Daniel not be considered among the prophetic books of the Tanakh but a literary book of History?
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Why was the Book of Daniel included in the Canon of the TaNaKH if Daniel would not be considered a prophet? (Having read something on him by Elie Wiesel in Sages And Dreamers, I am not really surprised by your affirmation)… and how should Daniel then be considered?
 
Lapell said:
Why was the Book of Daniel included in the Canon of the TaNaKH if Daniel would not be considered a prophet? (Having read something on him by Elie Wiesel in Sages And Dreamers, I am not really surprised by your affirmation)… and how should Daniel then be considered?
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I did not follow all the discussion, but since the Book of Daniel is part of the Canon of the TaNaKH, that then does not discard its message. Therefore, I don’t see how you can rightly consider it a collapsing Christian pillar… Even then, the books that form the Canon of the Septuagint Bible (which was defined even BEFORE the Canon of the TaNaKH, BTW) still are authoritative. In Jesus’ days, its books (not yet all put together then) were widespread outside of Jerusalem.
 
Who are you, son of Masada, to call authoritative books unauthoritative? The Canon remains the Canon. My understanding is that the parts of the Septuagint Bible that were not included in the TaNaKH were not there because they were not written in Hebrew, but in Greek.
 
On the time Jesus went on Earth there were prophets like John the Baptist son of Priest Zacharias from the Temple feed by angels at birth and Prophet Symeon that lived for 600 years, and others that moved to Chrsitianity. You don’t recognize them because they are not in error.

I think prophecy and speaking with God is encouraged. This is why there are so many religions on Earth, if all of them would have people speaking with God or Prophets, today would ahve been one religion across Earth, probably Orthodox Christianity.
 
Gleaning through some remarks here, yes Dan is considered apocalyptic in the Latin Church.

Crucifixion was a way of execution for many besides Christ under the Romans. And there was shame and a curse to be hung from a tree as well.

Only Christ was innocent. And the wages of sin is death, for the body is what leads one to sin. But we can die to our own self will, and encounter the new living Christ within us.

The Catholic Church is historically documented throughout its entire 2,000 year history. Peter already established a new liberality when he had the dream of all the animals, and was told he could eat. Paul was missionary. Both work together in holding the keys to heaven.

Ben Masada, were you able to look at any information shared on Hebrewcatholic.org or Israelcatholic.com, whose author lives in the city as you.
 
Hunho said:
That’s fine. Just sure to keep any references in proper and full quotation. If the author of the New American Bible’s preface to the Book of Daniel had no problem with the facts of authorship/composition of the Book of Daniel then I have none. That doesn’t change anything about any correlations between New Testament events and what is written in the Book of Daniel.
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Well, if you accept History as prophecies to be applied to events in the NT, the gospel writers are safe with you, because that’s what the Book of Daniel is: History. Neither was the author a Prophet nor the Book prophetic.
 
Lapell said:
Why was the Book of Daniel included in the Canon of the TaNaKH if Daniel would not be considered a prophet? (Having read something on him by Elie Wiesel in Sages And Dreamers, I am not really surprised by your affirmation)… and how should Daniel then be considered?
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Not all books in the Canon of the Tanakh are prophetic. Some are historical like the Book of Daniel, some are Torah, and some prophetic. Jews use the Book of Daniel but as a historical book. That’s all.
 
Lapell said:
I did not follow all the discussion, but since the Book of Daniel is part of the Canon of the TaNaKH, that then does not discard its message. Therefore, I don’t see how you can rightly consider it a collapsing Christian pillar… Even then, the books that form the Canon of the Septuagint Bible (which was defined even BEFORE the Canon of the TaNaKH, BTW) still are authoritative. In Jesus’ days, its books (not yet all put together then) were widespread outside of Jerusalem.
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Take it easy Lapell, I didn’t say that the Book of Daniel was the fallen pillar. If you read the original thread, I am referring to the “Prophetic” frame of the 70 years in Daniel 9:24-27
as the pillar many Christians consider as the last word to close all questions about the Messiahship of Jesus. Well, now they have to look for another one, because this frame is gone as a Messianic prophecy.
 
Lapell said:
Who are you, son of Masada, to call authoritative books unauthoritative? The Canon remains the Canon. My understanding is that the parts of the Septuagint Bible that were not included in the TaNaKH were not there because they were not written in Hebrew, but in Greek.
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**Well, my dear Lapell, the Book of Daniel was written in Hebrew and in the Land of Israel. At least, I cannot say the same about the books of the NT which were all written in Greek and all outside Israel. Two good reasons to be rejected by the Jewish Canon. And I am not the one who classified the Book of Daniel as a historical book and not prophetic. They were Jewish Scholars. You can check any website on the Prophets of Israel to see that Daniel doesn’t figure. **
 
AdrianP said:
On the time Jesus went on Earth there were prophets like John the Baptist son of Priest Zacharias from the Temple feed by angels at birth and Prophet Symeon that lived for 600 years, and others that moved to Chrsitianity. You don’t recognize them because they are not in error.

I think prophecy and speaking with God is encouraged. This is why there are so many religions on Earth, if all of them would have people speaking with God or Prophets, today would ahve been one religion across Earth, probably Orthodox Christianity.
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**You should leave Orthodox Christianity or at least embrace reality a little. Who told you that John the Immerser was fed by angels at birth? Angels are emanations. Emanations don’t feed people with food.

Who told you that Symeon lived 600 years? Even pre-Flood people didn’t live that long in reality. I think Orthodox Christianity is making you too wild.

Who told you that John and Symeon moved to Christianity? See what I mean? Christianity started with Paul 30 years after Jesus had been gone. (Acts 11:26)**
 
So an angel could put a pice of coal on Jeremiah mouth but you say they cannot feed people. Wasn’t Elijah feed by an angel at one time, if I am not wrong?
 
Ben Masada,

Thanks for getting back. Missed your comment that you had visited Hebrew Catholic awhile back…how about Israelcatholic.com that comes out of Jerusalem.

It was St. Paul who confronted St. Peter for going back on liberality as Peter was ministering to a Jewish Christian community who wanted to retain their heritage…and yes. St. Paul and St. Barnabas, who was chosen and accepted by the Apostles, to take the place of Judas Iscariot.

To go back 2,000 referring to our historical heritage, I do not have the education and background to properly cover that with you. I will try to find other sources.

I greatly enjoy HebrewCatholic, find it a place and renewal for my Catholic faith, drawing to our Jewish roots…have you heard of Roy Shoeman and his book, ‘Salvation is from the Jews’? Incredible. My father brought us up to remember the Holocaust. He was in the Benedictine seminary a few years, and they were hearing of atrocities in Europe but weren’t sure how much was true or not. He received a copy there of ‘The Black Book of Poland’, and I started reading it when I was 9…but it was very hard, and I should have asked permission from my father…
 
Ben_Masada said:
Good question Humble maid! As good an answer you have in my thread,
“Personification of Attributes.” I recommend it to you, and I pray that you will understand. It is too Philosophical.
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Please, enlighten me if you will. I pray that I understand the LORD’S words as He intended.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Kay, I am all ears. Tell me what did Jesus do to complete in the Covenant? Perhaps we will have something to discuss afterwords.
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Dear Ben Masada,

After praying and pondering about this I can only tell you what I believe has already been pointed out.
All things which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning Jesus Christ have been fulfilled and in them being fulfilled the Old Covenant was completed. In His resurrection even death was put at His feet by His Father. He then became the cornerstone of the New Covenant and the Apostles after being empowered and guided by the Spirit of God laid the foundation of the New Covenant. So in understanding this I would Have to say Jesus did both. He fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant.

It is hard for me to try and explain something that I know in my heart to be Truth and I do not believe I am versed enough in scripture to offer much help. But I will pray that God blesses you on your journey in knowing His voice and His Kingdom.🙂

Always praying and pondering
 
Ben_Masada said:
About what we believe, you are going to be more specific. Regarding what we think about Mary, she was a Jewish lady from the Tribe of Levi according to Luke 1:5,36, the wife of Joseph and mother of several children, being Jesus her firstborn with Joseph.
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Sorry Ben to bring this up now but I was reading over some previous posts of yours and found this one. I checked it out and you misinterpreted again. Here are the scriptures.

Lk 1: 5,36
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth.
36And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

You see where I have enlarged the text well that is Elizabeth they speak of and not Mary.
 
AdrianP said:
So an angel could put a pice of coal on Jeremiah mouth but you say they cannot feed people. Wasn’t Elijah feed by an angel at one time, if I am not wrong?
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**Oh! I get you. Adrian you err for being extremely literal with everything you read in the Scriptures. The prophetic language is the same as poetic language. The Prophets got Divine communications through visions and dreams and in a metaphorical way. (Numb. 12:6) God would never speak to a human as a man speaks to another. God is Incorporeal. No wonder Jesus himself said that the Gentiles do not understand what they worship, while the Jews understand what they worship. Why? Because God is Spirit, and in spirit, we are to worship him. (John 4:23,24)

Do you actually believe in your heart that a literal piece of hot coal was put in Isaiah’s lips? No, man! That was the way Isaiah was chosen with the mission to bring the final message to Israel, the Kingdom of the North before the People’s final exile forever.

Do you actually believe that Elijah was fed by angels in the form of birds? Those were fragments of legends in the Chronicles of the Prophets spread by tradition from mouth to mouth until Ezra returned with the Jewish People from exile in Babylon and organized the Scriptures with the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah 70 years before.

But don’t get disicouraged; you are not alone. Almost all Christians are too literalist.**
 
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