The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

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simple_soul said:
Dear Ben Masada,

After praying and pondering about this I can only tell you what I believe has already been pointed out.
All things which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning Jesus Christ have been fulfilled and in them being fulfilled the Old Covenant was completed. In His resurrection even death was put at His feet by His Father. He then became the cornerstone of the New Covenant and the Apostles after being empowered and guided by the Spirit of God laid the foundation of the New Covenant. So in understanding this I would Have to say Jesus did both. He fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant.

It is hard for me to try and explain something that I know in my heart to be Truth and I do not believe I am versed enough in scripture to offer much help. But I will pray that God blesses you on your journey in knowing His voice and His Kingdom.🙂

Always praying and pondering
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**Have you ever read Matthew 5:18,19? It says in there that as long as there are heaven and earth not a letter of the Law would pass until all is fulfilled. And now comes the catch:
And everyone must do the same under the penalty of losing his chance in the Kingdom of
God. It means that not only himself but every one else was supposed to fulfill the Law. Therefore, it was more of a confirmation of the “Old Covenant” than a replacement after fulfilment.

Then, Paul came and contradicted Jesus by saying in other words that it was not true; and that the Law of commandments had indeed been abolished on the cross. That’s in Ephesus 2:15. Then, instead of confirmation of the Covenant, he established his policy of Replacement Theology. (Gal. 4:21-31)**
 
humble_maid said:
Sorry Ben to bring this up now but I was reading over some previous posts of yours and found this one. I checked it out and you misinterpreted again. Here are the scriptures.

Lk 1: 5,36
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth.
36And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

You see where I have enlarged the text well that is Elizabeth they speak of and not Mary.
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**Humble Maid, my post was an answer to a questioner about what I think of Mary. Mary was of the family of Elizabeth, who was of the daughters of Aron the Levite. Mary was of the family of Elizabeth for being her cousin. That’s the closest reference to connect Mary to one of the Tribes of Israel. (Luke 1:5,36) Where have I misinterpreted? **
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Have you ever read Matthew 5:18,19? It says in there that as long as there are heaven and earth not a letter of the Law would pass until all is fulfilled. And now comes the catch:
And everyone must do the same under the penalty of losing his chance in the Kingdom of
God. It means that not only himself but every one else was supposed to fulfill the Law. Therefore, it was more of a confirmation of the “Old Covenant” than a replacement after fulfillment.

Then, Paul came and contradicted Jesus by saying in other words that it was not true; and that the Law of commandments had indeed been abolished on the cross. That’s in Ephesus 2:15. Then, instead of confirmation of the Covenant, he established his policy of Replacement Theology. (Gal. 4:21-31)**
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Dear Ben Masada,

What I am about to say are just my thoughts on this. I do not know if or even how it all may or may not “fit” what has been taught over the years. So anyone who may read this and have better understanding of how this transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant was accomplished please help me to understand it better.

Yes Ben, I have read Mathew 5:18-19. I have also read Luke 24:44 “And He said unto them. These are the words that I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”

As of today my understanding is that Jesus only taught and fulfilled the Old Covenant up until His death. In His Death the Old Covenant died with Him. In His Resurrection Everything about Him was accomplished and in accomplishing this, He laid down the cornerstone for the New Testament. He charged the Apostles with establishing this New Covenant through the enlightenment and guidance of the Spirit of God.
Luke 24:49 “Mark this, I am sending upon you my Father’s promissed gift; so stay here in this city until you are armed with the power from above.”

If the Apostles took the perfect way that Jesus lived and taught the Old Covenant to help lay the foundations for the New Covenant then I could see how people would say and think that Jesus was teaching both Old and New Covenants. Also, if one believes the Spirit of God did indeed enlighten and guide the Apostles in their understanding of what the New Covenant is to be, then yes Jesus also taught them the New Covenant at the same time He was fulfilling the Old Covenant. But the enlightenment of the New Covenant did not start until after the Old Covenant had been fulfilled. I believe that St. Paul was indeed guided and enlightened by the Spirit of God and this made him very instrumental in helping the establishing and understanding of God’s New Covenant. So I guess one could call St.Paul’s teachings a “Replacement Theology” but I believe it was so much more than just a “Replacement Theology” It was the Theology that helped in the understanding of the Old Covenant and in establishing the New Covenant as was all of the Apostle’s teachings whether they were by words or traditions.

On a side note, I do not have a formal education in any of this but this is what I know in my heart to be true as far as my education and understanding goes and yes I accept what has been recorded and expanded upon of the Apostle’s teachings on faith in the reassurance of the greatness of the Great I AM. The all Knowing and all Powerful. The Alpha and Omega.
For when I put my trust in Him I find Him in my heart.

If there is anyone that can expand on these thoughts that I have just posted so that I can understand His Truth better please …

Always praying and pondering
 
I do have some thoughts and I think there was no Nazarene sect whatsoever. As moving from pre Moses LAWS to OLD Covenant was swift and people were not saying, lets keep 10% or 20% or 30% or 40% or 50% or 60% or 70% or 80 % or 90% of Old Laws and we pick and choose about OLD COVENANT what we want, here was the same swift transition to NEW COVENANT without picking and choosing .

As support for what I am saying I bring the Liturgy of Apostle James ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.ii.html and the Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iii.html and here we see clearly Holy Communion for eternal life and what is done today in Orthodox Church.

Apostles, majority of which were Jews, asked if circumcision should be kept and other things of concern to them and all these questions and by reading Bible you may see that the answer is no and you can see some miracles done by God.

I do think circumcision was replaced by baptism.

These early Liturgies bring a new understanding of Early Christianity and demolish Protestant claims about what was the beginning of Christianity.
 
This is an orientative comparison between the 2 Covenants. Don’t say is correct or anything but just :for orientation should work.
"Mosaic Covenant New Covenant
Came by Moses John 1:17 Came by Christ Heb. 8:6, 9:15
Law of Moses Acts 13:38-39 Law of Christ Gal. 6:2
Law of sin Rom. 7:5-6 Law of righteousness Rom. 9:30-31
Law of the flesh Rom. 7:5-6 Law of the Spirit Rom. 8:2
Not of faith Gal. 3:2 Law of faith Rom. 3:27
Yoke of bondage Gal. 5:1 Law of liberty Jam. 1:25
Ended by Christ Rom. 10:4 Established by Christ Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Law of death II Cor. 3:7 Law of life Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Entangles Gal. 5:1 Makes free John 8:32, 36
A shadow Col. 2:14-17 The reality Heb. 10:1-18
Fulfilled Mat. 5:17-18 Now in force Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Leaves imperfect Heb. 7:19 Makes perfect Heb. 7:19
Glorious II Cor. 3:7 More glorious II Cor. 3:8-10
Powerless to save Heb. 9:9, 10:4 Saves to uttermost Heb. 7:25
Many sacrifices Heb. 9:12-13 One sacrifice for sin Heb. 10:12
Temporary priest Heb. 7:23 Eternal priest Heb. 7:17
Remembers sins Heb. 10:3 Forgets sins Heb. 8:12, 10:17
Yearly atonement Heb. 10:3 Eternal atonement Heb. 10:14
Priests have sin Heb. 5:1-4 Sinless priest Heb. 7:26
Aaronic priesthood >Heb. 7:11 Melchisedec priesthood Heb. 5:5-10, 7:21
Out of Levi Heb 7:11 Out of Judah Heb. 7:14
Animal sacrifices Heb. 9:12 Human sacrifice Heb. 9:14-28
Earthly tabernacle Heb. 9:2 Heavenly tabernacle Heb. 8:2
Imperfect mediator Gal. 3:19 Sinless mediator I Tim. 2:5
No inheritance Rom. 4:13 Eternal inheritance Heb. 9:15
Instituted upon animal blood Heb. 9:16-22 Instituted upon blood of Christ Mat. 26-28
Works wrath Rom. 4:15 Saves from wrath Rom. 5:9
Non-redeeming Heb. 10:4 Redeems Gal. 3:13, Heb. 9:12-15
Non-pleasing Ps. 40:6 Pleasing to God Heb 10:5-18
Abolishment predicted Is. 51:6 Establishment predicted Heb. 8:7
Circumcision Ex. 12:48 No circumcision Rom. 4:9-12
Made to change Heb. 7:12, Gal. 3:25 Made eternal Heb. 13:20
Faulty Heb. 8:7 Perfect James 1:25
Weak Heb. 7:18 Strong Heb. 7:25
Unprofitable Heb. 7:18 Profitable Heb. 7:19,25
Natural program Heb. 9:10-14 Spiritual program II Cor. 3:6, 18
Daily program Heb. 7:27 Finished program Heb. 10:10-18
Infirm high priests Heb. 5:2, 7:28 Perfect high priest Heb. 7:26
Made priests by law Heb. 7:12, 28 Made priests by an oath Heb. 7:21, 28
No salvation Heb. 10:2-4 Eternal salvation Heb. 5:9, 10:10
Perfected nothing Heb. 7:19 Perfects believers Heb. 7:19, 10:14
Earthly priests Heb. 5:1-4 Heavenly priest Heb. 9:24, 10:12
Repeated inability Heb. 10:11 Glorious success Heb. 10:10-18
Many offerings Heb. 9:7 One offering Heb. 10:10-14
Good promises Dt. 28:1-14 Better promises Heb. 8:6
A good covenant Rom 7:12 A better covenant Heb. 7:22, 8:6
Many high priests Heb. 7:23 One high priest Heb. 7:24-28
Typical tabernacle Heb. 9 True tabernacle Heb. 8:2, 9:11
No mercy Heb. 10:28 Complete mercy Heb. 8:12
Handmade things Heb. 9:1-5, 24 Not handmade Heb. 9:23-24
An old way Heb. 8:13 New and living way Heb. 10:19-20
Unavailing ministers Heb. 7:18 Able ministers II Cor. 3:6
Carnal ministry Heb. 9:9-10 Spiritual ministry II Cor. 3:6
Ministration of condemnation II Cor. 3:9 Ministration of righteousness II Cor. 3:9
Glory covered II Cor. 3:13 Glory uncovered II Cor. 3:18
Brings bondage Gal. 4:24-25 Brings liberty II Cor. 3:17
Cannot justify Gal. 2:16 Does justify Acts 13:38-39
Brings a curse Gal. 3:10 Redeems from the curse Gal. 3:13
Live by works Gal 3:10 Live by faith Gal. 3:11
Cannot give life Gal. 3:21 Does give life John 6:63-68
Exposes sin Gal 3:19 Covers sin Rom. 4:1-8
Under law Rom 6:14-15 Under grace Gal. 3:22-25
Done away II Cor. 3:7-14 Not done away II Cor. 3:11
Abolished II Cor. 3:13 Continues glorious II Cor. 3:11
Ministry of death II Cor. 3:7 Reconciliation ministry II Cor. 5:18
For Israel only Dt. 4:7-8, 5:3 For all men Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24

If you want to be part of NEW LAW come to ORTHODOX CHURCH. "
 
John 6
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
** 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.**
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead:** he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.** "
I think that So God is dwelling in people partaking Holy Communion.
 
AdrianP said:
New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow Judaism:

amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdThread=Tx3SL6ITIY9PDCW&displayType=tagsDetail
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Christianity could not be fully understood without the Old Testament and the Jewish Faith, Adrian. God is the One who revealed Himself back then, and He also is the One who revealed Himself in Jesus’ days…
 
Actually, you may not know this, Adrian, but Christian Revelation was in line and in continuity with the Revelation at Mount Sinai (and also with the Revelation to King David and King Solomon in the Temple (at her inauguration))…
 
Lapell said:
Actually, you may not know this, Adrian, but Christian Revelation was in line and in continuity with the Revelation at Mount Sinai (and also with the Revelation to King David and King Solomon in the Temple (at her inauguration))…
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And of course the Revelation to and through the Prophets…
 
BTW the Temple was meant to be a House of prayer for all peoples, not just the Jews (Is 56, 7)
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Humble Maid, my post was an answer to a questioner about what I think of Mary. Mary was of the family of Elizabeth, who was of the daughters of Aron the Levite. Mary was of the family of Elizabeth for being her cousin. That’s the closest reference to connect Mary to one of the Tribes of Israel. (Luke 1:5,36) Where have I misinterpreted? **
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Indeed, Mary the mother of Jesus WAS a cousin of Elizabeth, and Elizabeth WAS a descendant of Aaron, all this according to the Gospel according to Luke.
I don’t know if it automatically means that as Elizabeth’s cousin she would necessarily have to be of the tribe of Levi too… By that time, were those of one tribe still not allowed to marry one of another?
Also, was Humble Maid’s comments about this specific thing on Mary or about other things you have said? I will check this out right now…
 
Ben_Masada said:
Not all books in the Canon of the Tanakh are prophetic. Some are historical like the Book of Daniel, some are Torah, and some prophetic. Jews use the Book of Daniel but as a historical book. That’s all.
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It is still a sacred book since it was included in the Canon…
 
Ben_Masada said:
Take it easy Lapell, I didn’t say that the Book of Daniel was the fallen pillar. If you read the original thread, I am referring to the “Prophetic” frame of the 70 years in Daniel 9:24-27
as the pillar many Christians consider as the last word to close all questions about the Messiahship of Jesus. Well, now they have to look for another one, because this frame is gone as a Messianic prophecy.
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Anything truly said in the Name of God is prophetic, not just when it comes to predicting things for the future from signs perceived in the things of the here and now.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Not all books in the Canon of the Tanakh are prophetic. Some are historical like the Book of Daniel, some are Torah, and some prophetic. Jews use the Book of Daniel but as a historical book. That’s all.
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Wasn’t Moses a prophet as well as a law-giver (God’s)?
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Oh! I get you. Adrian you err for being extremely literal with everything you read in the Scriptures. The prophetic language is the same as poetic language. The Prophets got Divine communications through visions and dreams and in a metaphorical way. (Numb. 12:6) God would never speak to a human as a man speaks to another. God is Incorporeal. No wonder Jesus himself said that the Gentiles do not understand what they worship, while the Jews understand what they worship. Why? Because God is Spirit, and in spirit, we are to worship him. (John 4:23,24)

Do you actually believe in your heart that a literal piece of hot coal was put in Isaiah’s lips? No, man! That was the way Isaiah was chosen with the mission to bring the final message to Israel, the Kingdom of the North before the People’s final exile forever.

Do you actually believe that Elijah was fed by angels in the form of birds? Those were fragments of legends in the Chronicles of the Prophets spread by tradition from mouth to mouth until Ezra returned with the Jewish People from exile in Babylon and organized the Scriptures with the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah 70 years before.

But don’t get disicouraged; you are not alone. Almost all Christians are too literalist.**
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You don’t know the whole of Christianity to speak like this. Ever heard of theologians using a historico-critical method of interpretation. And it’s useful… to some extent! It does have its limits…
 
Lapell said:
Indeed, Mary the mother of Jesus WAS a cousin of Elizabeth, and Elizabeth WAS a descendant of Aaron, all this according to the Gospel according to Luke.
I don’t know if it automatically means that as Elizabeth’s cousin she would necessarily have to be of the tribe of Levi too… By that time, were those of one tribe still not allowed to marry one of another?
Also, was Humble Maid’s comments about this specific thing on Mary or about other things you have said? I will check this out right now…
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God’s Blessings upon all of you,

Lapell, I was trying to prove that Mary is a descedant of the House of David and thus would fulfill the scripture in which Jesus is of the seed of David. A comment was made that if Joseph was not Jesus’ father then Jesus couldn’t be of the seed of David. However scriptures show us that Jesus was of the House of David from both His mother and foster father.

Tradition tells us that Mary too was a descendant of David. According to Numbers 36:6-12, an only daughter had to marry within her own family so as to secure the right of inheritance. [Matt 1:2-19]The husband of Mary… The Evangelist gives us rather the pedigree of St. Joseph, than that of the blessed Virgin, to conform to the custom of the Hebrews, who in their genealogies took no notice of women; but as they were near akin, the pedigree of the one showeth that of the other.After St. Justin (Adv. Tryph. 100) and St. Ignatius (Letter to the Ephesians 18), the Fathers generally agree in maintaining Mary’s Davidic descent, whether they knew this from an oral tradition or inferred it from Scripture, e.g. Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8. St. John Damascene (De fid. Orth., IV, 14) states that Mary’s great-grandfather, Panther, was a brother of Mathat; her grandfather, Barpanther, was Heli’s cousin; and her father, Joachim, was a cousin of Joseph, Heli’s levirate son. Here Mathat has been substituted for Melchi, since the text used by St. John Damascene, Julius Africanus, St. Irenæus, St. Ambrose, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus omitted the two generations separating Heli from Melchi. At any rate, tradition presents the Blessed Virgin as descending from David through Nathan.

The geneology of Joseph by Julius Africanus:
In it he proposes what is still the favourite explanation of the two pedigrees of our Lord (Matthew 1:2-19; Luke 3:23-38), namely that St. Joseph’s two fathers, Jacob (Matthew 1:16) and Heli (Luke 3:23), were half-brothers of the same mother, that Heli died without children, and Jacob took his wife to raise up seed to his brother according to the Levitical law (Deuteronomy 25:5-6).

Sources:
APA citation. Fortescue, A. (1910). Julius Africanus. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved October 6, 2009 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/08565a.htm

MLA citation. Fortescue, Adrian. “Julius Africanus.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 8. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 6 Oct. 2009 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08565a.htm.
 
Ben Masada,

Yes, I stand corrected…Mathias was chosen not Barnabas, who went with St Paul.

But the early church was Jewish…but Christ brought salvation to all, not just the Jews. So there were many Jews who did not have issues that others had who then denied Christ.

You ask what I mean, Salvation is from the Jews…who God chose, and still are regarded the Chosen People of God…Who dwells among them…The Jewish people were the means mankind received the 10 Commandments and the foundation of worship that is desirable to God Himself…the world receives the Word of God in Scripture, and …Jesus Christ, the Messiah, Prophet and King.

It was God Himself who hardened the Jewish people so that the Gentiles could enter…but that does not mean that God condemns them…The Jews…

God Himself will be the one Who will draw the Jewish people to Jesusm, not us, and also my reason to see how you interacted with the Hebrew Catholics…they are fantastic and I am learning the Word of God all over again…

I look at the post Christian cultures and what has happened to them…I remember reading about a Jewish teacher’s ancient writing about the Jewish people being the olive tree…and how the Gentile, the wild root, would some day be rooted to the olive tree…but once it broke off…it would become wild again. I see the Jewish people as God’s living foundation, that He is present among them always, but He is living present among us in physical presence in our tabernacles.
 
I do agree Jews are special.
One day I was thinking to write a book to next generation to learn from me but I learned that some people did just that and that now other people the next generations may put the Word of man above word of God. Tanackh cannot be viewed through Talmud or Kabalah but through revelation. This would upset me, like how my book and my understanding can be above understanding of God
Maybe one day a veil from their face will fail down and I am thinking here maybe at Kabalah that may be Kosher magic if magic can be kosher, sure it can not, and another veil I am thinking at Talmud.Once word of magic and word of man will go , then Tanakh or Word of God will shine and will tell the story of New Testament and Word of God that was prophecized many times over.
 
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