The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[Lapell]

God’s Blessings upon all of you,

Lapell, I was trying to prove that Mary is a descedant of the House of David and thus would fulfill the scripture in which Jesus is of the seed of David. A comment was made that if Joseph was not Jesus’ father then Jesus couldn’t be of the seed of David. However scriptures show us that Jesus was of the House of David from both His mother and foster father.

Tradition tells us that Mary too was a descendant of David. According to Numbers 36:6-12, an only daughter had to marry within her own family so as to secure the right of inheritance. [Matt 1:2-19]The husband of Mary… The Evangelist gives us rather the pedigree of St. Joseph, than that of the blessed Virgin, to conform to the custom of the Hebrews, who in their genealogies took no notice of women; but as they were near akin, the pedigree of the one showeth that of the other.After St. Justin (Adv. Tryph. 100) and St. Ignatius (Letter to the Ephesians 18), the Fathers generally agree in maintaining Mary’s Davidic descent, whether they knew this from an oral tradition or inferred it from Scripture, e.g. Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8. St. John Damascene (De fid. Orth., IV, 14) states that Mary’s great-grandfather, Panther, was a brother of Mathat; her grandfather, Barpanther, was Heli’s cousin; and her father, Joachim, was a cousin of Joseph, Heli’s levirate son. Here Mathat has been substituted for Melchi, since the text used by St. John Damascene, Julius Africanus, St. Irenæus, St. Ambrose, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus omitted the two generations separating Heli from Melchi. At any rate, tradition presents the Blessed Virgin as descending from David through Nathan.

The geneology of Joseph by Julius Africanus:
In it he proposes what is still the favourite explanation of the two pedigrees of our Lord (Matthew 1:2-19; Luke 3:23-38), namely that St. Joseph’s two fathers, Jacob (Matthew 1:16) and Heli (Luke 3:23), were half-brothers of the same mother, that Heli died without children, and Jacob took his wife to raise up seed to his brother according to the Levitical law (Deuteronomy 25:5-6).

Sources:
APA citation. Fortescue, A. (1910). Julius Africanus. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved October 6, 2009 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/08565a.htm

MLA citation. Fortescue, Adrian. “Julius Africanus.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 8. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 6 Oct. 2009 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08565a.htm.

In Israel back then, I think it would have sufficed that Jesus was considered to be (and registered as) Joseph’s son. Certain priests told us that Mary was born in the tribe of Judah, without bringing us anything to demonstrate it, only that certain people had stated the same thing before they did.
But really, I don’t find this to be such an actual obstacle against the claim that Jesus can be called “son of David”, not according to the way the people would be considered descendants back then.

 

[simplynoone]

Would you know Arsenie Boca that lived near my city, you’ll become literalistic again. I think I have a movie where St Mary appeared and left a footprint into a rock in a monastery.This is with power of God. Actually this is it 1:25
youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4&feature=channel_page

What do you think about this movie? I think the body was in the casked and she appeared in the picture.
youtube.com/watch?v=D-1dxIQEHFU

Do you know the purpose of Deuteronomy 13? Because men can be a) deceivers and b) gullible. Which catagory do you suppose you fall into?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Dear Ben Masada,

What I am about to say are just my thoughts on this. I do not know if or even how it all may or may not “fit” what has been taught over the years. So anyone who may read this and have better understanding of how this transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant was accomplished please help me to understand it better.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I do have some thoughts and I think there was no Nazarene sect whatsoever. As moving from pre Moses LAWS to OLD Covenant was swift and people were not saying, lets keep 10% or 20% or 30% or 40% or 50% or 60% or 70% or 80 % or 90% of Old Laws and we pick and choose about OLD COVENANT what we want, here was the same swift transition to NEW COVENANT without picking and choosing .

As support for what I am saying I bring the Liturgy of Apostle James ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.ii.html and the Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iii.html and here we see clearly Holy Communion for eternal life and what is done today in Orthodox Church.

Apostles, majority of which were Jews, asked if circumcision should be kept and other things of concern to them and all these questions and by reading Bible you may see that the answer is no and you can see some miracles done by God.

I do think circumcision was replaced by baptism.

These early Liturgies bring a new understanding of Early Christianity and demolish Protestant claims about what was the beginning of Christianity.

**Adrian, I hate to tell you that you err by being too fast in your conclusions before being certain about what you want to say. You have thought, as you say, but not enough to conclude that there was no Nazarene Sect.

When Paul came up to Jerusalem to try to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, he wreaked such a havoc in Jerusalem that the local Jews were on an uproar to arrest him, for preaching about Jesus as Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. He was saved by James the head of the Sect of the Nazarenes and the Elders who took Paul down to Caesarea and from there to Tarsus where he belonged. 14 years later, he went back, was arrested and when he was taken to the Sanhedrin, the Attorney Tertullius, who conducted the trial against him, without much investigation, but only the fact that 14 years before the Nazarenes had saved him, he had no problem connecting Paul as a ringleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes. Now, you can check in Acts 24:5. Next time think a little harder before you decide that there was no Sect of Nazarenes. The Sect was founded on behalf of Jesus of Nazareth.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow Judaism:

You forgot to say, “For you.” Because, for me, the Law, as it was given to us by God is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the abolition of it by Paul. And that Judaism, the Faith of Jesus, is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Christianity. And it is supposed to guide the nations as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (Isa. 42:6; 2:2,3; I Kings 11:36))

 

[AdrianP]

The thing is Paul sacked the error and become christian because Jesus appeared to him and you can see God directing him and he did well not following Sanhedrin error and following God remember Jews in connection with God become Christians, actually St Paul appeared many times after his death confirming he did a good decision.

 

[AdrianP]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Paul

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=KJV

 

[simple_soul]

simple soul;5786419:

Dear Ben Masada,

Yes, I am much more interested in your thoughts on this than in links.

Very good my friend, now, please, tell me, who decided what has been written in the Law of Moses concerning Jesus, the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels? Not too convincing.

What is the difference between what you say and what Paul decided in Ephesians 2:15, when he contradicted Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:17-19? Jesus said I did not come to abolish. Paul said, that’s not true; everything was abolished on the cross. Who was on the cross? Jesus. So, who is lying Jesus or Paul? Please, do not discard my question. It does make a lot of sense.

First of all, you cannot prove the resurrection because there was no eyewitness to it. The cornerstone for the NT was set down by Paul. The NT must include Gentiles; and Jesus had an aversion to Gentiles. He even forbade his disciples to take the good news of salvation to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5)

Too hypothetical.

**Are you sure you could? So, mind you that the converts of the Apostles of Jesus would become staunch defenders of the Law. The Old Covenant that Jesus did not change. Read Acts 21:20. **

When Jesus said that nothing of the Law had changed, and everything was confirmed down to the letter, he said that as long as there is heaven and earth, everyone of us must do the same as he did. He was talking about the Old Covenant. Heaven and earth are still here. So, must we do as he did.

I am sorry, but I can’t find any other way to see Paul contradicting Jesus’ words by abolishing what Jesus had not abolished. What you are trying to do is to let us know that Paul was the one who decided that what Jesus did not do in life, he did in death. I wonder how Jesus’ Apostles did not see that way. And if God blessed what Paul did, why did He keep the Apostles in the dark?

Do you know that a few Scholars have classified Replacement Theology as a kind of Antisemitism? And they are not all Jewish, mind you.

Everyone else from another religious denomination different from yours, also puts his or her trust in Him. As you can see, that’s not enough. You could be wrong as much as anyone else.

**I can think of someone who can. Remember what is written in Isaiah 2:2,3? It says in there that if you lack understanding in the Word of God, the address is Zion, the Jewish People. Why? Because the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. That’s in Psalm 147:19,20. **

Dear Ben Masada,

We could go round and round and round in circles here of who understands the great I Am best. The Truth is we will never fully understand the Great I AM. We can only try but ultimatly it is up to Him to fully reveal Himself to us and I am willing to trust that He knows best.

Did not Noah show this faith and trust in the great I Am when he built the ark? Did not Abraham show us this faith when the great I Am told him to sacrifice his own son to Him? Did not Moses struggle with this same faith and trust in the great I AM and still managed to fulfill what the great I am asked of Him? Did not Jesus Christ commend Himself to the Great I Am, His Father, in His death trusting that His Father would raise Him from death and then place it under His feet? This is the kind of faith that moves mountains. There are fiscal mountains that get moved for some if the great I Am wills it, for me they are mountains that hinder me from loving the great I am with my whole heart, my whole soul, and my whole mind. For it is in trusting the Great I Am that He completely fulfills me.

May God bless you on your journey to Him,

Always praying and pondering

 

[humble_maid]

In Israel back then, I think it would have sufficed that Jesus was considered to be (and registered as) Joseph’s son. Certain priests told us that Mary was born in the tribe of Judah, without bringing us anything to demonstrate it, only that certain people had stated the same thing before they did.
But really, I don’t find this to be such an actual obstacle against the claim that Jesus can be called “son of David”, not according to the way the people would be considered descendants back then.

You are right about this not being an obstacle against Jesus’ claim to be a ‘son of David’. I was answering to Ben’s statement that Mary was of the House of Levi and that there was an attempt to discredit Jesus as being the messiah because He did not fulfill the prophecy of being a descendant of David.

I enjoy reading your posts Lapell. You have a quick wit. Besides that we are compatriots. God Bless.

 

[humble_maid]

When Paul came up to Jerusalem to try to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, he wreaked such a havoc in Jerusalem that the local Jews were on an uproar to arrest him, for preaching about Jesus as Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. He was saved by James the head of the Sect of the Nazarenes and the Elders who took Paul down to Caesarea and from there to Tarsus where he belonged. 14 years later, he went back, was arrested and when he was taken to the Sanhedrin, the Attorney Tertullius, who conducted the trial against him, without much investigation, but only the fact that 14 years before the Nazarenes had saved him, he had no problem connecting Paul as a ringleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes. Now, you can check in Acts 24:5. Next time think a little harder before you decide that there was no Sect of Nazarenes. The Sect was founded on behalf of Jesus of Nazareth.

Acts 24:5-18
5"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect 6and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him. 7 But the commander, Lysias, came and with the use of much force snatched him from our hands 8 and ordered his accusers to come before you.9The Jews joined in the accusation, asserting that these things were true. 10When the governor motioned for him to speak, Paul replied: "I know that for a number of years you have been a judge over this nation; so I gladly make my defense. 11You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. **12My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. 14However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man. **
17"After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings. 18I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance

Hello Ben and God Bless,
Please read the scripture which you referred to and continue to the following verses. I do not see how Paul was stirring up problems when it is clear that he was being falsely accused by ‘these jews’ just like Jesus was. Paul defended himself and humbled himeself before the court and God.
Please stop using the NT scriptures to make your point when you don’t believe them to be true. If you do use them then make sure to use it in its full context so as to get the ‘true picture’. God will help you understand the truth Ben; I pray for it.

 

[AdrianP]

simplynoone why golem was not a deceiver and how do you discern between a deceivement and a miracle ?
Do people believing in kosher magic and doing Kabalah need Deuteronomy you said?

 

[AdrianP]

Jews in contact with God understood what is going on:
"A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. He stood beside me and said, “Brother Saul, receive your sight!” And at that very moment I was able to see him.

Then he said: “The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.”

“When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance and saw the Lord speaking. “Quick!” he said to me. "Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me.”"

 

[Ben_Masada]

If you want to be part of NEW LAW come to ORTHODOX CHURCH. "

If you don’t want to be charged as an anti-Semite, stop promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Ben_Masada]

John 6
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
** 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.**
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead:** he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.** "
I think that So God is dwelling in people partaking Holy Communion.

**Only God lives forever. Anyone else who has been born will eventually die. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Indeed, Mary the mother of Jesus WAS a cousin of Elizabeth, and Elizabeth WAS a descendant of Aaron, all this according to the Gospel according to Luke.
I don’t know if it automatically means that as Elizabeth’s cousin she would necessarily have to be of the tribe of Levi too… By that time, were those of one tribe still not allowed to marry one of another?
Also, was Humble Maid’s comments about this specific thing on Mary or about other things you have said? I will check this out right now…

As I said, there is nothing in the NT closer than Luke 1:5,36 to relate Mary to a Tribe. So, we have got to do with what we have.

 

[Ben_Masada]

You don’t know the whole of Christianity to speak like this. Ever heard of theologians using a historico-critical method of interpretation. And it’s useful… to some extent! It does have its limits…

I am not talking about Christianity but Judaism. Jewish writings that Christians interpret literally. They should leave them alone, and just ask what they need to know. Just as Isaiah says in Isaiah 2:2,3. Why? Because the address to get instructions about God’s Word is Zion, the Jewish People.

 

[AdrianP]

Ok, its time for denial time or pause. There was a time when I was performing yoga and one of my friend told me truth and I did not belive him. I needed some denial time to ponder into my head pros and cons.In the end I was giving him credits but I needed my denial and pondering time.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Would you know Arsenie Boca that lived near my city, you’ll become literalistic again. I think I have a movie where St Mary appeared and left a footprint into a rock in a monastery.This is with power of God. Actually this is it 1:25
youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4&feature=channel_page

What do you think about this movie? I think the body was in the casked and she appeared in the picture.
youtube.com/watch?v=D-1dxIQEHFU

**Nobody who has ever died will reappear. Besides exposing yourself to ridicule for believing theses things, you make yourself vulnerable to be cheated upon. Religious crooks like your kind to make a living out of you. **

 

[AdrianP]

You may want to read about near death experiences: youtube.com/watch?v=NPabMyVvC9s&feature=channel_page

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada,

Yes, I stand corrected…Mathias was chosen not Barnabas, who went with St Paul.

But the early church was Jewish…