The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

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Ben_Masada said:
** Attack! Who is attacking here! This is not for me to attack. Attacks are what you guys are experts at. When someone started talking about being attacked it’s because he has run out of juicy. You have even lost that Jewish trait to hold a good and attractive discussion. **
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All right, you’re not “attacking”, just using a maybe “harmless” accusation towards us! :rolleyes:;)😃
 
Filioque said:
Yet you continue to come here attack, belittle and slander Catholics. Moreso Jews who after study and prayer have decided that they can only be good Jews by converting to Catholicism.

Why cause yourself such tsorus?

As to your mishigosh, asking me if I have ever heard of Rambam. What observant and well read Jew has not? Most of all as I mentioned I was raised in a Sephari home. The only thing you are accomplishing is the destruction of good faith between Christians and Jews. By who’s authority do you speak? You hurl accusations and when asked don’t supply references. Several times when you have attacked Catholic teachings that you know little of, you come back suprised that the Catholic Church does not teach what the Evangelical Protestants do. I’d suggest that you don’t just copy and post the attacks your un-named sources have provided you, but that you investigate what those you attack really do believe first.
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You react quite hotly to Filioque’s post. Why?
And he is right about what Evangelical Protestants teach being in a number of respects really different from what our Catholic Church teaches. Don’t confuse the Evangelical Protestants with the Catholics although they are Christians too, Y. And you have the nerve to tell US about OUR lack of discernment! You should also tell your mirror… Discernment is not an easy thing, is it!
 
Accurate discernment is not an automatic thing even with the scholars and the intelligent, Y. … whether a Christian Catholic or a Jew! God is the One providing accurate discernment. No one of us OWNS it, not even a Jew! And we all can be so easily deceived, especially if we are very sure that we can’t be deceived. Therefore, let’s thank God with praise and humility for every piece of discernment we have received. Job used to say: “The Lord had given, the Lord has removed (forsaken?). May the Name of the Lord be blessed!” He certainly discerned accurately and wisely, didn’t he?
 
Filioque said:
Yet you continue to come here attack, belittle and slander Catholics. Moreso Jews who after study and prayer have decided that they can only be good Jews by converting to Catholicism.

Why cause yourself such tsorus?

As to your mishigosh, asking me if I have ever heard of Rambam. What observant and well read Jew has not? Most of all as I mentioned I was raised in a Sephari home. The only thing you are accomplishing is the destruction of good faith between Christians and Jews. By who’s authority do you speak? You hurl accusations and when asked don’t supply references. Several times when you have attacked Catholic teachings that you know little of, you come back suprised that the Catholic Church does not teach what the Evangelical Protestants do. I’d suggest that you don’t just copy and post the attacks your un-named sources have provided you, but that you investigate what those you attack really do believe first.
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Filioque:

Thank you for your photographic memory of Ben. He is a Baal Teshuva , of course, I have no idea what that is but according to Wikipedia it is:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_teshuva

Yet, as I go beyond the words, I also find the following, which captures the arrogance this person displays here, yet why do I suspect on his other forums?

jewcy.com/post/baal_teshuvah_inherently_offensive_term

Your question of where he spoke for the Jewish people was right on target, according to others who have dealt with this group. I guess we are not alone! I can run my mouth too like others, but I am amazed at the seemingly lack of Jewish participants in this and other questions/discussions on this forum. Is it just me?

My father once told me it takes all kind of people to make up this world. Your questions and perspective are right on target. I especially like that you are of a different race! Ben,…….you’ve said it all Thank you!!! 🙂
 
Wildkit:

Baal Teshuva can include anything the person claiming it wants it to mean. Usually it is when a non-observant, Reform or Conservative Jew gravitates to Orthodoxy. Most often it is when someone is incorporated into one or another of the Chabad groups. (The Lubavich being the largest and most well known of these movements.) Baal Teshuva can someone from a Marrano family who returns to Judaism, sometimes generations later, after Jewish belief no longer exists.

It is really quite interesting, (the Chabad story that is). They came into being as a reaction to the founding of Reform Judaism, and are really a new movement. While they pose as Uber Jewish, most people are unaware that they are new. There was also an issue with their being so excessive and strict in their interpretation of Torah and the Talmud, and their anti-Christian stance that the question was addressed to the Bet Din of Slutzk which was at that time something akin to the Supreme Rabbinical Court of Eastern Europe. Up until the exile of the Jews from Spain important questions were addressed to the Rabbinic courts in Spain, after the Expulsion it was Slutzk that had that honor.

Well getting back to the Chabad Lubavich movement. The Rabbinic Court of Slutzk did what has rarely been done in Jewish History, they excommunicated the Chabad Lubavich movement. So they are something akin to the Sede Vacantists who’s factions claim to be the only ones who can interpret the Catholic Faith, and the leadership in the Catholic Church is invalid. Not 100%, but as close an anaolgy as we have.

I find it funny that the Chabad and other jews would consider me a Jew for life, based on my brit (Sephardic pronunciation of the ritual circumcision) and my mother being a Jew. They do consider me a Jewish Apostate, but still keep the Jewish part. My family went through the ritual period of mourning when I converted, but thanks to my Grandfather, who was a Rabbi contacting me and asking me why I converted, he and my grandmother, and then later my mother, father, and brother converted too. Only my sister, who is a nominal Jew did not convert.

Ben can rant and rave about what he and his handlers call Judaism, but from what I’ve read, he does not represent any form of Judaism that a rational, well educated Jew would recognize.
 
Lapell said:
Y., this person has just told you he was raised a Sephardi. Why is it BTW that those Christians who were born Jews should be told they are not Jews anymore because they became Christians? It’s when the Nazarenes, who were called “Christians” after a number of years, were banned from the Temple and the synagogues, little by little and then officially, that they were cut off from the Jewish people.
Hasn’t the Jewish people a role which should lead to the redemption and the salvation of all those, Jews AND non-Jews, who renounced their sinful ways and were (are) determined to follow God’s?
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**And I believed he was, but he has lost his Jewishness. Any Jew who confesses his religious allegiance to another Faith is no longer Jewish.

The Nazarenes were never called Christians, and I think we have been through this before. Christians originated with Paul in Antioch about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Nazarenes were never banned from the Temple. They were as Jewish as any other regular Jew.

There are only two kinds of salvation. One is personal, which comes as a result of obedience to God’s Law. (Ezek. 18:21,22) The other kind is collective salvation which exists as long as Israel ixists as a People before the Lord forever. (Jere. 31:35,36)**
 
Filioque said:
Wildkit:

Baal Teshuva can include anything the person claiming it wants it to mean. Usually it is when a non-observant, Reform or Conservative Jew gravitates to Orthodoxy. Most often it is when someone is incorporated into one or another of the Chabad groups. (The Lubavich being the largest and most well known of these movements.) Baal Teshuva can someone from a Marrano family who returns to Judaism, sometimes generations later, after Jewish belief no longer exists.

It is really quite interesting, (the Chabad story that is). They came into being as a reaction to the founding of Reform Judaism, and are really a new movement. While they pose as Uber Jewish, most people are unaware that they are new. There was also an issue with their being so excessive and strict in their interpretation of Torah and the Talmud, and their anti-Christian stance that the question was addressed to the Bet Din of Slutzk which was at that time something akin to the Supreme Rabbinical Court of Eastern Europe. Up until the exile of the Jews from Spain important questions were addressed to the Rabbinic courts in Spain, after the Expulsion it was Slutzk that had that honor.

Well getting back to the Chabad Lubavich movement. The Rabbinic Court of Slutzk did what has rarely been done in Jewish History, they excommunicated the Chabad Lubavich movement. So they are something akin to the Sede Vacantists who’s factions claim to be the only ones who can interpret the Catholic Faith, and the leadership in the Catholic Church is invalid. Not 100%, but as close an anaolgy as we have.

I find it funny that the Chabad and other jews would consider me a Jew for life, based on my brit (Sephardic pronunciation of the ritual circumcision) and my mother being a Jew. They do consider me a Jewish Apostate, but still keep the Jewish part. My family went through the ritual period of mourning when I converted, but thanks to my Grandfather, who was a Rabbi contacting me and asking me why I converted, he and my grandmother, and then later my mother, father, and brother converted too. Only my sister, who is a nominal Jew did not convert.

Ben can rant and rave about what he and his handlers call Judaism, but from what I’ve read, he does not represent any form of Judaism that a rational, well educated Jew would recognize.
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**You mean to say that Rashi, the Rambam and other educated Jews did not believe that Israel is the Messiah? It’s a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. A consensus even among Christians. Now, mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name as the one, so that you won’t have to assume that he could have been Jesus or any other individual. Read Isaiah 41:8.9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. There. Now, are you going to tell me that Isaiah was not an educated Jew? **
 
I do think Kosher Magic and Kabbalah is anti Jewish since may be playing with the devil and having scores of untruths maybe contradicting the Word. Can you believe Kaballah an stage by stage creation or 6 day creation ? CAn you believe both?
I do think Talmud is anti Jewish since may entice people to put Word of Man above Word of God.
I do think true Jewishness is today in Orthodox Church and I define Jewishness as listening to God and is so sad to see Jews fighting against true Jewishness.
So please let alone the Jews that listen to God and are true Jews.
You started attacking Word of God or Tanakh saying that is not inspired but historical and making the book of Daniel look like a liar book to save your preconceptions aka you put your preconceptions and falsehood above the Word.
Well, wake up.
Shame on you.
 
Why do you try make us believe that book of Daniel is a liar book . Is it because it closes the window of coming of Messiah so it exposes the falsehood of the teachings you are holding? So you want to make us to believe that people that were teached to put together the Word put lies into it?
 
Since your teachings contradict the Word, you have to decide, either the Word and Jewishness either error . It does not matter what people believe about Jewishness.It matters what God blieves about Jewishness.
 
Ben_Masada said:
**You mean to say that Rashi, the Rambam and other educated Jews did not believe that Israel is the Messiah? It’s a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. A consensus even among Christians. Now, mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name as the one, so that you won’t have to assume that he could have been Jesus or any other individual. Read Isaiah 41:8.9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. There. Now, are you going to tell me that Isaiah was not an educated Jew? **
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What Rashi said is not as important as why it was said. For a Jew who has rejected the concept that Jesus could be that Messiah, and is involved in debates and writings to safeguard his beliefs, one has to come up with what he feels is an appropriate response to the beliefs held by his religious opponents. In this case Rashi felt he did so 1000 years after the founding of Christianity. If you feel Rashi’s arguments and those of other scholars who have much later come up with a reply to Christian claims, bully for you. I myself do not find them convincing, or I would not have found Christianity to be true.

Ben, one of the problems as I see it is that you come here with the arrogance of someone who thinks or has been taught that all Christians, and most of all any Jew who converts to Christianity has not checked out not simply what is written, but some of the reasons it was written. When the Rabbinic in Spain had public debates with Catholic Scholars, much good work was written on both sides, great minds grappled with lofty subjects. after a review of much of these writings some have decided that they should remain Jews, a few Catholics have become Jews, (which in Catholic eyes does not remove their baptism) some Jews have become Catholic, (which does not remove the brit or the fact they are Jews according to the majority opinion of Jews, which is only germain because there is no single authority like a Pope or Council that all Jews recognize. Even great writers like Rambam and Rashi are interpreted differently among various Jewish communities.) Lastly there are those Catholics who read the disputes and remain Catholic.

Both sides claim vicotry when writing about these debates. Both sides claim they have the only authentic interpretation. So do yourself and everyone here a favor. Debate away, but do so not in the angry, advasarial, and boarderline manner that you have been posting. Learn what the Catholic Church teaches, (your ignorance of the teachings is as manafest as that of some Catholics about Judaism) then choose what you wish to debate or discuss, post it not with devisive titles like “The Collapse” or a “Death Blow” and see if you and those here can engage in some sort of meaningful debate. Your continued arrogence and aggression would make me feel that you are not here to do anything but stir up trouble.

One Final Comment/Question

Answer me this. You rale against me as no longer being a Jew. You uphold that you are the font of all Orthodoxy. What are you doing going on the Internet and posting (from Jerusalem no less) during Shabbos? Based on the time stamp of your last flurry of comments, it would have been around 10:30AM when you should have been at Shul. Between your ealriest posts and the most recent there is a disconnect. Now posting on a Catholic board, (even for the sake of debate, and allegedly learning) what exemption do you have for doing so on Shabbos?
 
Which do you suppose is an easier sin to forgive: profaning the Sabbath or moving it altogether?
 
If moving is done by God then I think there is no sin involved in both cases. Apostles were in direct connection with God .
 
Beofre Moses there were other laws. Is there any sin for you keeping Moses laws and not pre Moses laws?
How about putting Word of Magic before Word of God?
How about putting Word of Man before Word of God?
 
Is there a sin of not accepting Messiah and trying to discard the book of Daniel?
 
What do you think, disobeying God and not accepting Messiah is good or bad?
How about fighting and trying to destroy Church of NEW LAW setup by God?
 
AdrianP said:
What do you think, disobeying God and not accepting Messiah is good or bad?
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I was just commenting on a ‘conversation’ taking place where one of the major protagonists is no longer available to take part.

I’m not part of the conversation.
 
This time I am not speaking with Ben.I responded to the man naming himself angelo.
 
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