The Collective Messiah

[Ben_Masada]

how many did not die?

In my opinion, everyone but Jesus.

 

[Ben_Masada]

So you are a Messianic Jew? Not Orthodox?

Yes Through Him, unlike the so-called “Messianic Jews” who believe Jesus was the Messiah, I do
consider myself a true Messianic Jew because I believe that Israel is the Messiah according to the Prophet Isaiah. If one believes he is part of the Messiah, he is a Messianic Jew.

Ben:

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah…If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah.

This is an interesting line of thought but the biggest problem with it is that from the time of Jesus on, Jews have done plenty of suffering but not much saving. God called on the Israelites to be priests to all nations but modern Jews seem anly too happy to deny their own history in order to oppose Christianity.

I am skeptical of the Christian claim of supersessionism but I don’t see much of anything coming from modern Judaism that would lead me to believe that they take their role seriously.

First of all, Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah or God.

This is a misleading half-truth. Jesus never said “I am God” or “I am the Messiah” but he did say almost that in several ways and did not correct those who said it of him.

See e.g. John 8:58, John 10:30-31, etc

 

[inJESUS]

In my opinion, everyone but Jesus.

wow

 

[Ben_Masada]

=wisdomseeker;4812020]i have a feeling this is going nowhere.you believe in Isaiah and not St Paul. I believe both. and there is no contradiction among them.

Isaiah says that the Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People. Paul contradicts him by saying that the Messiah is Jesus. And you say that there is no contradiction between them. I think you need to check about contradiction in the dictionary.

many saw Jesus after His death. it is all written. but if you dont believe in the NT what is the point in discussion this at all?

I believe 20 percent of the NT as coming from Jesus or about him. 80 percent are interpolations either by the gospel writers or by the Fathers of the Church when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

not necessary true. since the Pharisees did believe life after death. am i wrong? but i think that the Saducees were the ones not believing in life after death. correct if i am wrong.

You are right. Even today many Jews believe in afterlife, but the majority don’t. Little by little we are returning to the Scriptures that do not approve the belief in afterlife.

how God wanted? it is written that God’s way is not our way.
the NT shows that Herod was very jelous about the Messiah. he was afraid that Messiah had come and probably would take his kingdom away. as we know Jesus is the King but not like Israel wanted. a deliver from the Romans. Jesus had bigger plans for Israel but the Sanhedrin would not listen.

Sorry, but the paragraph above is not clear.

if you deny the apostles, then you probably wont believe nothing else after that.

I never denied the Apostles of Jesus. Soon after Jesus was gone, they organized the Sect of the Nazarenes, but
never had anything to do with Christianity. That’s what I deny. Their connection with Christianity.

you say, if it makes sense to me. i dont know what does this mean. it is all written plus we also have the OT passed on to the Church. if you really want to see you must know the Churhc.

I have been studying the Church for years. I haven’t yet found harmony between the Church and the Tanach.

Ben:

:

 

[Non_Serviam]

Question: If you believe as you do, why aren’t you spending your time informing Jews, so as the raise their “Messiah-consciousness”?

 

[wisdomseeker]

:byzsoc:

Isaiah says that the Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People. Paul contradicts him by saying that the Messiah is Jesus. And you say that there is no contradiction between them. I think you need to check about contradiction in the dictionary.

and God says in Genesis that He would bring forth a Virgen. remember that?

I believe 20 percent of the NT as coming from Jesus or about him. 80 percent are interpolations either by the gospel writers or by the Fathers of the Church when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

what 20 percent? do you jnow what Simean said about the Child?
how about Mary? do you believe she was a Virgen?

You are right. Even today many Jews believe in afterlife, but the majority don’t. Little by little we are returning to the Scriptures that do not approve the belief in afterlife.

i take you dont believe that Jesus, Peter, and James saw Moses?

Sorry, but the paragraph above is not clear.

oh yes it is clear. just read the NT and you will see.

I never denied the Apostles of Jesus. Soon after Jesus was gone, they organized the Sect of the Nazarenes, but
never had anything to do with Christianity. That’s what I deny. Their connection with Christianity.

the name christians was given by others and not by the christians themselvs.

I have been studying the Church for years. I haven’t yet found harmony between the Church and the Tanach.

Ben:

that is funny. because i do.

:byzsoc:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Question: If you believe as you do, why aren’t you spending your time informing Jews, so as the raise their “Messiah-consciousness”?

What makes you think I am not? Besides, two who had left Judaism for the “Jews-for-Jesus” aberration, have returned. One of them was on line. And within Judaism proper, I am not idle at all.

 

[Ben_Masada]

:byzsoc:

And He says in Amos 5:2 that the virgin is Israel. Remember that too?

what 20 percent? do you jnow what Simean said about the Child?
how about Mary? do you believe she was a Virgen?

Yes, but before she slept with Joseph. This is much better than to give Agnostics the chance to claim that she was raped by a Roman soldier.

i take you dont believe that Jesus, Peter, and James saw Moses?

Of course not! They were probably dreaming or had a vision.

the name christians was given by others and not by the christians themselvs.

I know, by Luke. He was the one who said that the disciples were called Christians for the first time in Antioch, after Paul spent a whole year there preaching about Jesus as Christ.

I have been studying the Church for years. I haven’t yet found harmony between the Church and the Tanach.

that is funny. because i do.

I am all ears; why don’t you enlighten me?

 

[wisdomseeker]

And He says in Amos 5:2 that the virgin is Israel. Remember that too?

what 20 percent? do you jnow what Simean said about the Child?
how about Mary? do you believe she was a Virgen?

Yes, but before she slept with Joseph. This is much better than to give Agnostics the chance to claim that she was raped by a Roman soldier.

i take you dont believe that Jesus, Peter, and James saw Moses?

Of course not! They were probably dreaming or had a vision.

the name christians was given by others and not by the christians themselvs.

I know, by Luke. He was the one who said that the disciples were called Christians for the first time in Antioch, after Paul spent a whole year there preaching about Jesus as Christ.

I have been studying the Church for years. I haven’t yet found harmony between the Church and the Tanach.

that is funny. because i do.

I am all ears; why don’t you enlighten me?

It is all there written. why dont you believe? many have believed. if Jesus Himself couldnt do it, let alone me. you must connect the dots. you dont have a Temple anymore. you have no more sacrifices. explain why.

God bless
[/quote]

 

[ParkerD]

Yes Through Him, unlike the so-called “Messianic Jews” who believe Jesus was the Messiah, I do
consider myself a true Messianic Jew because I believe that Israel is the Messiah according to the Prophet Isaiah. If one believes he is part of the Messiah, he is a Messianic Jew.

Ben:

Ben Masada,
If Israel is the Messiah, then in what way are they fulfilling Isaiah 53:5,6? How do Isaiah 54-56 relate to that belief, especially 54:5?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada,
If Israel is the Messiah, then in what way are they fulfilling Isaiah 53:5,6? How do Isaiah 54-56 relate to that belief, especially 54:5?

**To understand Isaiah properly, one must have some initiation on the concept of Messiah ben Joseph, who was Israel, the Kingdom of the North, and Messiah ben David, who is Judah, or today, the House of Jacob, called by the new name of Israel from the stock of Judah, according to Isaiah 48:1.

Now, I explain to you Isaiah 53:5,6. As I expect you to know, this is Isaiah speaking on behalf of the People of Judah, since Isaiah was a Judahite. He, Israel, or MBJ was wounded for the transgressions of Judah. Israel was bruised for the iniquities of Judah. The chastisement for the peace between God and Judah was upon Israel; and with the stripes of Israel, we, the Judahites were healed.

Now, verse 6. All of us, Judahites, had gone astray. We had turned every one of us to his own way, and the Lord had laid on Israel the iniquities of all the Judahites.

That’s the exegesis of Isaiah 53:5,6. But I understand if you did not understand anything of the above. As I said, you need to read the thread I have posted about "Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5223733:

It is all there written. why dont you believe? many have believed. if Jesus Himself couldnt do it, let alone me. you must connect the dots. you dont have a Temple anymore. you have no more sacrifices. explain why.

God bless

**Wow! That was an easy one! We have no more sacrifices because we don’t have the Temple. We spent 70 years without Temple and sacrifices during the exile in Babylon. When we returned and rebuilt our Temple, the sacrifices were resumed. Wait a little longer, as soon as we rebuild our Temple, the sacrifices will surely be resumed as before. **
[/quote]

 

[wisdomseeker]

wisdomseeker;5223864:

Ben Masada;5223733:

**Wow! That was an easy one! We have no more sacrifices because we don’t have the Temple. We spent 70 years without Temple and sacrifices during the exile in Babylon. When we returned and rebuilt our Temple, the sacrifices were resumed. Wait a little longer, as soon as we rebuild our Temple, the sacrifices will surely be resumed as before. **

2000 years has passed. still no Temple. we have a new Temple a new Sacrifice, according to Jesus. the CC knows all about that.

i believe after Constantine, his nephew( i believe) tried to rebuild the Temple two or three times but all attempts failed. do you know why? do you know what happened during the rebuilding? find out.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**To understand Isaiah properly, one must have some initiation on the concept of Messiah ben Joseph, who was Israel, the Kingdom of the North, and Messiah ben David, who is Judah, or today, the House of Jacob, called by the new name of Israel from the stock of Judah, according to Isaiah 48:1.

Now, I explain to you Isaiah 53:5,6. As I expect you to know, this is Isaiah speaking on behalf of the People of Judah, since Isaiah was a Judahite. He, Israel, or MBJ was wounded for the transgressions of Judah. Israel was bruised for the iniquities of Judah. The chastisement for the peace between God and Judah was upon Israel; and with the stripes of Israel, we, the Judahites were healed.

Now, verse 6. All of us, Judahites, had gone astray. We had turned every one of us to his own way, and the Lord had laid on Israel the iniquities of all the Judahites.

That’s the exegesis of Isaiah 53:5,6. But I understand if you did not understand anything of the above. As I said, you need to read the thread I have posted about "Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David. **

this does not sound right. did Israel died? it seems to me that Isaiah is speaking about a person and not a land or a nation. how can a nation die for a nation herself? i does not make any sense. plus Isaiah speaks of the appearance of a person and not of a nation. was Israel enjailed for the transgression of who? Isaiah also says He was killed because of the sins of the world. where has Israel being killed to save the world? Isaiah also points out that He is without sin. is Israel without sin?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5227948:

wisdomseeker;5223864:

2000 years has passed. still no Temple. we have a new Temple a new Sacrifice, according to Jesus. the CC knows all about that.

i believe after Constantine, his nephew( i believe) tried to rebuild the Temple two or three times but all attempts failed. do you know why? do you know what happened during the rebuilding? find out.

**And that’s why the CC hasn’t yet recognized the State of Israel. Because the CC knows that we will rebuild our Themple back and the CC also knows that the Pauline “once-and-for-all” sacrifice of Jesus will become meaningless.

Regarding the attempt of Julian, the Apostate to rebuild our Temple failed because the time of our exile was not over.

The same had happened with Cyrus in Persia. He tried to proclaim the end of the Babylon exile 26 years before the time and nothing happened because the 70 years determined by the prophecy in Daniel 9:24 had not been over yet.

So, when Emperor Julian tried to rebuild the Temple, the time was not ripe. In fact, also Napoleon Bonaparte also tried to effect the return of the Jews, but the time for our exile was not full yet.

Our exile ended after World War I, when Hertzl started the Awakening Zionist Movement. The Jews were too comfortable to move. It had to take a Holocaust for that to happen. Then, we realized that the exile had been over.

We returned, I mean, a remnant of us. Now, we are waiting for the right time to remove that abomination from our Temple Mount and start rebuilding our Temple. We count that the whole Christian world will help us and not behave like the Samaritans when the Jews returned from Babylon. **

 

[wisdomseeker]

wisdomseeker;5228971:

Ben Masada;5227948:

**And that’s why the CC hasn’t yet recognized the State of Israel. Because the CC knows that we will rebuild our Themple back and the CC also knows that the Pauline “once-and-for-all” sacrifice of Jesus will become meaningless.

Regarding the attempt of Julian, the Apostate to rebuild our Temple failed because the time of our exile was not over.

The same had happened with Cyrus in Persia. He tried to proclaim the end of the Babylon exile 26 years before the time and nothing happened because the 70 years determined by the prophecy in Daniel 9:24 had not been over yet.

So, when Emperor Julian tried to rebuild the Temple, the time was not ripe. In fact, also Napoleon Bonaparte also tried to effect the return of the Jews, but the time for our exile was not full yet.

Our exile ended after World War I, when Hertzl started the Awakening Zionist Movement. The Jews were too comfortable to move. It had to take a Holocaust for that to happen. Then, we realized that the exile had been over.

We returned, I mean, a remnant of us. Now, we are waiting for the right time to remove that abomination from our Temple Mount and start rebuilding our Temple. We count that the whole Christian world will help us and not behave like the Samaritans when the Jews returned from Babylon. **

and when is the right time Ben? how long has been since you went back to Israel? still no Temple. what is up with that? i am not mocking in anyway your believe. i am just point out to you what i believe that the Messiah has come and He built a new Temple.

 

[Ben_Masada]

this does not sound right. did Israel died? it seems to me that Isaiah is speaking about a person and not a land or a nation. how can a nation die for a nation herself? i does not make any sense. plus Isaiah speaks of the appearance of a person and not of a nation. was Israel enjailed for the transgression of who? Isaiah also says He was killed because of the sins of the world. where has Israel being killed to save the world? Isaiah also points out that He is without sin. is Israel without sin?

**Yes Wisdomseeker, Israel died. If you read Psalm 78:67-69,
you will see that God rejected the Tent of Joseph, that’s Israel and confirmed Judah for the sake of David. (I Kings 11:36) Yes, Israel was removed from existence because of the sins of Judah. That’s why it says that he was without sin. Israel was without the sins he died for, because the sins were of Judah and not of Israel. It doesn’t matter how sinful was Israel. He didn’t die for his sins but for the sins of Judah.

Listen Wisdomseeker, why don’t you take a look at the thread, “Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David?” I am sure you will have a much better understanding. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5239388:

wisdomseeker;5228971:

and when is the right time Ben? how long has been since you went back to Israel? still no Temple. what is up with that? i am not mocking in anyway your believe. i am just point out to you what i believe that the Messiah has come and He built a new Temple.

It has been 18 years since I heard the Messianic call to return to the Land of the Living, according to Isaiah 53:8. I think our problem is that we have returned too passive vis-a-vis world Politics. I think our leaders want to go through this diplomatically, and we will get nowhere. We only hope that a strong leader will decide to use the power we have in this part of the world and act like Ezra and Nehemiah with half of the people building the Temple and half holding the weapons to keep protestors at large.

 

[SteveLohr]

wisdomseeker;5228971:

Ben Masada;5227948:

**And that’s why the CC hasn’t yet recognized the State of Israel. Because the CC knows that we will rebuild our Themple back and the CC also knows that the Pauline “once-and-for-all” sacrifice of Jesus will become meaningless.

**

Ben-The Vatican and the State of Israel agreed to full diplomatic relations in 1993. I’m not sure when the actual exchange of ambassadors took place, but Israel currently has an ambassador in the Vatican.

Best,
Steve