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SteveLohr
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Ben_Masada
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Gabriel_of_12
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Luke 24:20
We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That’s in Isaiah 1:1: “A vision about Judah and Jerusalem.” That’s the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)
Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4
Now, we have extablished a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.
Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epitet of son of God, there is no problem. We can have it from Exodus 4:22,23. Here’s what it says in there: “Israel is My son; so, let My son go, that he may serve Me,” says the Lord. That’s why Hosea said that
“When Israel was a child, God said, out of Egypt I called My son.” (Hosea 11:1)
Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially in exile, is of a Messianic leader to lead or inspire the Messiah to return home. Moses
was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah to rebuild the Temple; and in our modern times, we had Herzl who was also one for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.
Now, I would appreciate to share your comments about the above.
Ben:
how our chief priests and rulers both handed him over to a sentence of death and crucified him.
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But we were hoping that he would be the one to redeem Israel; and besides all this, it is now the third day since this took place.
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Some women from our group, however, have astounded us: they were at the tomb early in the morning
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and did not find his body; they came back and reported that they had indeed seen a vision of angels who announced that he was alive.
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Then some of those with us went to the tomb and found things just as the women had described, but him they did not see."
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And he said to them, "Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
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Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer 8 these things and enter into his glory?"
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**Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures. **
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Ben_Masada
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**And where did this happen, on the way to Emaus? It must have been a joke! How could Jesus in a short walk make an exegesis of all about him in all the Scriptures? I wonder what Paul and the gospel writers thought about us. Perhaps that we were a bunch of morons. **
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Gabriel_of_12
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Gabriel of 12;
After I was fully initiated into the body of Jesus Christ by my sacrament of “Confirmation” The Holy Spirit has revealed to me where the Messiah is mentioned in scripture fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Nothing is impossible for God, to doubt what God can do, is to not believe in the almighty. In this case Jesus revealed “All” according to the eye witness “Cleopas” and It is “Written” from God’s inspired Word in the bible.
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wisdomseeker
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Ben, are you waiting for the Messiah or not?
Never before has there been so much learning, and yet so little knowledge of the truth.
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Ben_Masada
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**No, I am not. The Messiah has returned already. The Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People, according to Isaiah the Prophet.
Regarding so much learning and little knowledge of the truth, you might be right about that; but just to make it sure, what is the Truth? Care to venture a response?**
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Ben_Masada
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**Did you proof test your initiation under the light of Isaiah 8:20? "To the Law and Testimony; if your initiation was not according to that pattern, it’s because there is no light in it.? Was your initiation according to the Law and the Testimony? I very much doubt it. By the Law, the Torah is meant. By the Testimony, the Prophets and the rest of the Tanach.
You say the Holy Spirit has revealed to you where the Messiah is mentioned in the Scriptures. Which Scriptures, the one Jesus used to handle or the Christian NT?
You are right that nothing is impossible to God, but why would He have to do something just because you claim He did?**
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wisdomseeker
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Ben,
are the Jews waiting for the King? the Messiah? in Genesis God promised that He would bring forth a Virgen and this Virgen would bring forth a Son. who is this Virgen? i know that Jesus said. He is the Truth and the Light. the Bread of life. the Messiah. do you know what is Truth?
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Ben_Masada
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**Why the same question? Then, some people get upset that I give the same answer. No, we are not waiting for the King or the Messiah. I have told you, the King Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People, according to Isaiah 53.
The virgin promised in Genesis 3:15 is the same as the one of Isaiah 7:14, which Amos says that she is Israel. Then, if you read Isaiah 7:15,22 and 8:8, the son born of that virgin was Judah, who has become the Jewish People today.
The Truth is the Word of God, according to John 17:17, which was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth, according to Psalm 147:19,20. Moreover, the Truth is light on the path of men, according to Psalm 119:105. Then, Isaiah declared that Israel has been assigned as light unto the nations. From this quotation of Isaiah, Jesus declared in his Sermon of the Mount that the Jews are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14) **
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wisdomseeker
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i see that you believe in some teachings of Jesus but not all. am i correct?
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Ben_Masada
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**About 20 percent to be precise. The other 80 percent are made out of interpolations of or about him. **
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wisdomseeker
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how do you determine what 20% is true and the other 80% is all lies?
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traillius
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Anthropomorphising ( sp>? ) the nation of israel as the embodiment of the Messiah is not only against the spirit of the isaiah prophecy, it also doesn’t make sense logically. The messiah is sent to save israel, how can something fallen be a sacrifice for itself. Israel could not be the sin offering unless it is blameless. And if it is blameless, it doesn’t need a sin offering. One cannot have it both ways. And by the way, when you say " the nation of israel " are you referring to ancient israel, destroyed in 70 AD, Modern Israel founded in 1947, all people collectively of hebrew ancestry, or all practicing jews alive today? How exactly is a nation of people, however defined, supposed to be a sin offering, for I presume, the world.
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Ben_Masada
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The answer to every single question of yours above is found in my thread, “Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David.” Please, take a look at it.
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Ben_Masada
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If Jesus was a religious Jew, anything of or about him which is not Jewish is part of the 80 percent of interpolations.
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Bubba_Switzler
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Keep in mind that Jesus was not a Rabbinical Jew because Rabbinical Judaism hadn’t been invented yet. Looking at Jesus through the eyes of Rabbinical Judaism is going to give you a distorted picture of what it means to be Jewish.
For example, Jesus argued with the Pharisees (Rabbis of the day). Are you then claiming that he was therefore not Jewish or that these claims of arguments with the Pharisees were invented by Christians?
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Ben_Masada
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**I look at Jesus through the lenses of Biblical Judaism. And Jesus never argued with Pharisees or Rabbis of the day. This is a false accusation from the gospel writer who had been a disciple of Paul’s. The one who always had a grudge against the Pharisees was Paul, because the Jewish authorities never allowed him to build a church in Israeli soil. **
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Lev23
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Ben, this Israel as King Messiah thing is not working.
Israel has in part recogized the first coming of her King, Yeshua. Its at his Second coming he will fully restore the land and people of Israel, as well as judge the nations for their treatment of Israel.
Meanwhile, the Jews that are currently being restored to their nation and land of Israel need to humble themselves before their God.
**Ezekiel 36:16-32
Again the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
" 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! **
I find it odd that you are not awaiting for a King or a Messiah.
Ben, join the bride of Messiah now! You will rule and reign over Israel and the nations with Him.
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