The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[CentralFLJames]

I agree. But because of the cross, those who believe in Christ receive the forgiveness of sins

Yes. We are in violent agreement and are arm wrestling instead of shaking hands.
I want to add one more subtlety from my own insight to this though. The cross is not only the means by which Jesus appeases God’s wrath and reconciles those that believe to The Father it also convicts those who do not believe. This, there is a symmetry here that most people never see that reconciles various other parts of scripture.

After Jesus’ Resurrection those in hades awaiting heaven’s gates to be opened are in a state of waiting. When Jesus descended to “the dead” (hades - not hell) he taught those present. Those then were given the ultimate freedom to decide for themselves if they would follow Him through the unlocked gates of Heaven or to choose hell and reject Him. Again, God does not force salvation and eternal beatitude on anyone since love must be freely consented to.

I
Why do you think the believer’s sins are all forgiven for Christ’s sake, James? If they’re not, what would say about His work on the cross?

This is the entire answer to the reason that God conceived to make Creation. Divine Providence is objectively focused on only one outcome - maximum glory to The Son. This is why man fell - to bring a greater Glory to The Son and to manifest God’s love for His Son to all created beings in permitting them to share in that glory. The work on the cross gained infinite merit through which God’s Justice is appeased and God may freely give His precious grace to undeserving creatures to make them beings worthy to Himself as object of mutual love and affection. That’s pretty profound stuff!

I
But the “good news” is that all who believe in Christ, because of the cross, receive forgiveness of sins. Salvation is not primarily a sin issue, but a belief issue.

Yes this is the good news. But Salvation is a function of many things. After baptism sin only becomes an issue if one is not charitable - love of both God and man. Belief, like trust, comes through faith - all are necessary but not sufficient. Yes we must believe (have faith) and we must trust (both in God’s love and mercy). But we must also as an expression of Charity EXPRESS our love and collectively bear good fruit in the basking light of God’s grace just as a vine is watered and in due season bears good fruit; this fruit being suitable to God’s purposes. Just like in baptism - we MUST DO things we must also walk-the-walk, talk-the-talk and demonstrate our faith and love through action (some call work). Further we must be ready to carry our cross and if necessary suffer and die for Christ. By baptism we are reborn into both Jesus’ suffering and His glory. Cooperation with God’s grace is essential. If we stumble while carrying our cross we must get up, seek forgiveness and press onward to our glory.

I
What the cross did was provide the Divine means for God to, forever, forgive the sins of those who believe in the Sin bearer. The cross is the power behind God’s grace. God’s judgment against the believer has already been executed upon a Substitute, the news of which being called “The Gospel”, "good tidings."John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged;”

You have it a little confused here MD. It’s much more integrative. God’s Divine Love is GRACE and it is the power behind our salvation and all things. What the cross did was become the instrument by which God established the cornerstone of His Kingdom on earth and the means by which grace becomes directly accessible to us.

The cross, is also emblematic of our final cross roads and the point of decision by which through Jesus we may approach the literal doorway by which the blood of the lamb is sprinkled (as in passover) , the narrow gate, by which we enter into God’s Kingdom. The cross is also the key to heaven that opens heaven’s gates to humanity and lets us have access to the previously forbidden tree of life. On the tree of life hangs Jesus in the Eucharist, the salvific fruit which is the antidote to the poison of Eden’s forbidden fruit. The cross thus simultaneously integrates all of scripture into one place and becomes the key (which also is the wooden and narrow door) that God put on David’s offspring’s shoulder (literally by carrying the cross). The cross is the very same Key that Jesus gave to Peter and entrust to the Catholic Church through the authority of loosing and binding! The cross, every Christian’s heraldic symbol is the mark by which the Cherubim permit us to enter into heaven if our robes are washed clean by the blood of the lamb when we attempt to enter.
The Key of David:

Isaiah 22:22: "I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder. When he opens, no one shall shut; when he shuts, no one shall open.

Revelation 3:7: “To the presiding spirit of the church in Philadelphia write this: ‘The holy One, the true, who wields David’s key, who opens and no one can close, who closes and no one can open’”.

Isaiah 42:6-7: “I formed you, and set you as a covenant of the people, a light for the nations, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out prisoners from confinement, and from the dungeon those who live in darkness”.

Psalm 107:10-14: They dwelt in darkness and gloom, bondsmen in want and in chains,…and he led them forth from darkness and gloom and broke their bonds asunder".

Genesis 3:22-24 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

MD - You need to get out of the farm league and become Catholic bro!

I
“Belief” is consent, is it not?Absolutely!! But it does gives God the license, even the power, to forgive all who believe.

Yes - consent is saying just as Mary said “Let me me done to be according to your Word”. Jesus is of course the Living Word of God. But let’s not forget that like Mary who carried Jesus to term for 40 weeks, raised the Child Jesus into adulthood we too must do our part and labor in our consent of love.

What are we arguing about?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Oh boy … now you have stirred the pot !!!

Lets review just a few of the Mortal sins … actually, any of the Big 10 right ? Adultery … just the ‘thought desire’ is a crime …per Christ. And fornication … who here has been able to avoid that one ? Who here has never missed a Sabbath @ God’s Church ? Do not steal … who here has ALWAYS given the full tithe ?

We are all mortal sinners … at one time or another. I agree that when we commit these sins … we suffer loss of H.S. Our tanks go to near empty. Yet, God desires us to repent …so some H.S. remains to convict us of sin and insist on confession/repentance. But, if someone had heart attack on a Sunday nite after missing Mass, etc … you believe God would not consider the short time interval since the sin ?

Remember Christ’s words … “ye without sin, come and cast the first stone”. And no one did. Christ knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows we all are fallable … on daily, even hourly basis. The best of us sins 7X’s before sundown.

I say he gives us ‘at least’ a 24 hr reprieve from hellfires. Probably much more. What if God knows a Catholic with Mortal sins intends to resolve the matter at next scheduled priest confessional ? Would not the Lord give that gent[or dame] a week to keep their promise ?

Yes, yes, in this day and age most of us are grave sinners. This is a sure sign of the times of cascading immorality that causes sin to increase and the quality of spiritual life to decrease. The sins of the flesh are the ones most are falling to - it pervades our social context and we are marketed to through every media and thing we do. But guess what? ‘Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more.’ In less sinful times and cultures, say when the Jews were more devout as a nation and when they lived by the law alone. A slip in the law - was damnation unless one could apease God through acceptable sacrifices. Can anyone imagine living under the scrutiny of the Jewish law in these days? We would all be toast. Where I am going is that to a person with a conscience sin just demonstrates to us how utterly dependent we are on God to overcome it. If one has the right perspective and does not despair sin can drive us to a greater dependence on God to save us. Personally , I used to rely too much on my own strength and discipline to avoid sin. But this can be a sign of pride and this is precisely why God can permit us to fall - to teach us how utterly helpless we are without His grace and help. Thus God is so profound that he can make sin, a thing He abhors, an instrument for breaking us of our pride and teach us humility. Thus with God’s grace sin can bring forth a greater good if we learn out lessons.

As for dieing shortly after committing a mortal sin - yes that is possible. But if you are a good Catholic you are in the practise of praying each evening an act of contrition for any sins in though word or deed that you have committed but can’t consciously call to mind and of course for any that you did knowingly commit. Minimally we must be sorry for offending God. Most every reasonable person can find refuge in this sorry even when they may not see a particular sin as all that grievous since its habitual etc. But we must try to put up resistance to the sin and try to repent. If we fail - get up confess again and try again etc.
One should get in the habit of going to confession routinely - maybe ever 2 weeks if just starting off after a long lapse. After a few months - maybe see if once per month is sufficient.

A robust prayer life works wonders here.

Personally I recommend doing the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Immaculate Heart of Mary devotionals (First Friday and Saturday) to gain the assurances of final repentance before death. This is great peace of mind - but not a license to sin of course.

James

 

[BRB]

But guess what? ‘Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more.’

Primo Pauline doctrine !! Protestants really take this verse to heart

Finally a Pauline verse the 2 Tribes agree on 100 %.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You are being inconsistent here. Look at these two paragraphs.

Are we ‘instantly dead’ and hellbound … or, is it the later case [gravely wounded, our fellowship with the Lord having suffered great loss] … yet given the chance/time to confess & recover ?

I know it but I didn’t have the time to develop the rationale to explain it. Yes mortal sin makes us instantly dead to God spiritually. But even if our relationship is dead that does not mean other people’s relationship are dead. For example your friends might pray for you and God might answer a friend who is in a state of grace by giving you even more “repentant grace” to come back, say your sorry and restore the relationship. A person in mortal sin still has his conscience and may also come around to “reason” and repent and restore themselves.

But the real thing I wanted to convey here with the wounded analogy is that one is gravely wounded - it is just a matter of time that one becomes dead in every since of the word (physical and spiritual). But there is something intrinsic to the grace of life itself that gives us the old phrase “while there is life there is hope”. In other words God can still save a gravely wounded soul if he does not first die impenetent.

It’s the best say say here for the time I have to devout to the answer. The key thing is - one is at severe risk of going to hell if they are in mortal sin and one should RUN to confession or perform an act of contrition immediately after one comes to their senses about the state of their soul.

James

 

[Always_For_Him]

Close BRB - you are almost Catholic now.
Mortal sin is a mortal sin at the instant one commits it. At that instant one is immediately cut off from God’s friendship and is not in a relationship with God; nor is one any longer in God’s salvific grace (but God’s love still floods the soul with repentant grace, aka universal grace, to compel it to repent).

One in mortal sin is literally spiritually dead and if one dies in this state of sin unrepentant one goes to hell - no exceptions. Most people in the modern world are living in mortal sin but are so caught up in “the world” that they are indifferent to it and the symptoms. So, unrepented grave/mortal sin is TERMINAL. It is like getting gravely wounded by a rifle shot or contracting a terminal disease. It’s only a matter of time before one is unable to reverse the situation and hell is literally only a heart beat away (when one dies). Its a very precarious position for anyone to be lax about.

In mortal sin, one is still physically alive but one is gravely wounded in the “whole person”. The body is alive but the soul is gravely wounded and perishing - this in turn effects the physical and intellectual dimensions of ourselves as well (often manifesting itself as paranoia, contempt for authority, self loathing, apathy, self defeating behaviors, even real physical sickness etc.). In a state of mortal sin no person can do ANY good deed that merits them in the afterlife. Further EVERY good deed one has ever done in their life is forfeit and not considered before God’s judgement.

The good news for Catholics is that restoration to spiritual life is also only a heart beat away through sacramental confession and conditionally upon praying a perfect act of contrition with the intention of going to confession as soon as possible. Forgiveness restores one’s friendship with God, opens up new channels of grave, restores ALL prior life merits and makes it again possible to please God and do good works that will earn us greater rewards in heaven - assuming we persevere in grace till the finish line. However, mortal sin MUST be avoided since even when the soul is healed there remains a LOT of memory of that sin (a desire to repeat it through familiarity with it) and it may take a long penance and spiritual period of time to regain the same high level of grace and holiness as one previously may have had. Once innocence is lost it is very hard to regain and so it must be replaced with holiness through dedicated devotional prayer, personal penance and self mortification (fasting, self denial, alms giving, charity etc.). Our “humanness” thus makes it impossible to ever mock God through insincere repentance. That is, if one is not sincerely repentant the awoken concupiscence arising from the gravity of prior sins will pull us right back down again. AVOID mortal sin at all costs - its deadly! Also avoid frequent repetitions of venial sins as one would a mortal since since these really build up over time and can lead to mortal sin. Never give Satan a foothold. And if you do - get clean house fast.

I hope this helps clarifies things.

James

James, this is literally one of the best posts I have ever read on this topic - EVER. I have read it three times, and I am sure I will re-read it many times over. It is SO perfectly explained. Thank you so much.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Then the cross has no power and Christ died needlessly.

That is NOT what that means!

 

[BRB]

This is the entire answer to the reason that God conceived to make Creation. Divine Providence is objectively focused on only one outcome - maximum glory to The Son. This is why man fell - to bring a greater Glory to The Son and to manifest God’s love for His Son to all created beings in permitting them to share in that glory. The work on the cross gained infinite merit through which God’s Justice is appeased and God may freely give His precious grace to undeserving creatures to make them beings worthy to Himself as object of mutual love and affection.

Salvation is a function of many things. After baptism sin only becomes an issue if one is not charitable - love of both God and man. Belief, like trust, comes through faith - all are necessary but not sufficient. Yes we must believe (have faith) and we must trust (both in God’s love and mercy). But we must also as an expression of Charity EXPRESS our love and collectively bear good fruit in the basking light of God’s grace just as a vine is watered and in due season bears good fruit; this fruit being suitable to God’s purposes. Just like in baptism - we MUST DO things we must also walk-the-walk, talk-the-talk and demonstrate our faith and love through action (some call work). Further we must be ready to carry our cross and if necessary suffer and die for Christ. By baptism we are reborn into both Jesus’ suffering and His glory. Cooperation with God’s grace is essential. If we stumble while carrying our cross we must get up, seek forgiveness and press onward to our glory.

The cross, is also emblematic of our final cross roads and the point of decision by which through Jesus we may approach the literal doorway by which the blood of the lamb is sprinkled (as in passover) , the narrow gate, by which we enter into God’s Kingdom. The cross is also the key to heaven that opens heaven’s gates to humanity and lets us have access to the previously forbidden tree of life. On the tree of life hangs Jesus in the Eucharist, the salvific fruit which is the antidote to the poison of Eden’s forbidden fruit. The cross thus simultaneously integrates all of scripture into one place and becomes the key (which also is the wooden and narrow door) that God put on David’s offspring’s shoulder (literally by carrying the cross). The cross is the very same Key that Jesus gave to Peter and entrust to the Catholic Church through the authority of loosing and binding! The cross, every Christian’s heraldic symbol is the mark by which the Cherubim permit us to enter into heaven if our robes are washed clean by the blood of the lamb when we attempt to enter.

Truly some inspiring prose there Brother
Did you make confession earlier today ?

Seriously, this is top notch. You get a HOME RUN for this ‘at bat’. Take my compliments the right way. satan is always looking for an angle to knock us off our stride.

But, once we’ve been to the mountaintop … we know we can get there again.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Oh boy … now you have stirred the pot !!!

Lets review just a few of the Mortal sins … actually, any of the Big 10 right ? Adultery … just the ‘thought desire’ is a crime …per Christ. And fornication … who here has been able to avoid that one ? Who here has never missed a Sabbath @ God’s Church ? Do not steal … who here has ALWAYS given the full tithe ?

We are all mortal sinners … at one time or another. I agree that when we commit these sins … we suffer loss of H.S. Our tanks go to near empty.
Remember Christ’s words … “ye without sin, come and cast the first stone”. And no one did. Christ knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows we all are fallable … on daily, even hourly basis. The best of us sins 7X’s before sundown.

I say he gives us ‘at least’ a 24 hr reprieve from hellfires. Probably much more. What if God knows a Catholic with Mortal sins intends to resolve the matter at next scheduled priest confessional ? Would not the Lord give that gent[or dame] a week to keep their promise ?

BRB,

Yes, it has never been said that we can’t have remaining Holy Spirit, or that we turn away from the Holy Spirit forever. It is just that when we are in sin, we made the choice to sin which puts us out of grace for that time until we repent and are truly sorrowful for the sin and have true conviction of ever doing it again.

God is forgiving, of course. He knows when we are truly sorrowful for our sins. He knows when we truly want to repent for our sins. He knows when we have a firm purpose of amendment to those sins. He knows where our hearts are and when we truly want to live His will by His designs and make the choices to stay free from sin. He also knows when we may not be entirely sorrowful for said sin, and when we don’t quite live with conviction to never do that sin again. I can’t answer though if there is a short time interval for reparation of sin - that is new one for me.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Yes. We are in violent agreement and are arm wrestling instead of shaking hands.
I want to add one more subtlety from my own insight to this though. The cross is not only the means by which Jesus appeases God’s wrath and reconciles those that believe to The Father it also convicts those who do not believe. This, there is a symmetry here that most people never see that reconciles various other parts of scripture.

After Jesus’ Resurrection those in hades awaiting heaven’s gates to be opened are in a state of waiting. When Jesus descended to “the dead” (hades - not hell) he taught those present. Those then were given the ultimate freedom to decide for themselves if they would follow Him through the unlocked gates of Heaven or to choose hell and reject Him. Again, God does not force salvation and eternal beatitude on anyone since love must be freely consented to.

This is the entire answer to the reason that God conceived to make Creation. Divine Providence is objectively focused on only one outcome - maximum glory to The Son. This is why man fell - to bring a greater Glory to The Son and to manifest God’s love for His Son to all created beings in permitting them to share in that glory. The work on the cross gained infinite merit through which God’s Justice is appeased and God may freely give His precious grace to undeserving creatures to make them beings worthy to Himself as object of mutual love and affection. That’s pretty profound stuff!

Yes this is the good news. But Salvation is a function of many things. After baptism sin only becomes an issue if one is not charitable - love of both God and man. Belief, like trust, comes through faith - all are necessary but not sufficient. Yes we must believe (have faith) and we must trust (both in God’s love and mercy). But we must also as an expression of Charity EXPRESS our love and collectively bear good fruit in the basking light of God’s grace just as a vine is watered and in due season bears good fruit; this fruit being suitable to God’s purposes. Just like in baptism - we MUST DO things we must also walk-the-walk, talk-the-talk and demonstrate our faith and love through action (some call work). Further we must be ready to carry our cross and if necessary suffer and die for Christ. By baptism we are reborn into both Jesus’ suffering and His glory. Cooperation with God’s grace is essential. If we stumble while carrying our cross we must get up, seek forgiveness and press onward to our glory.

You have it a little confused here MD. It’s much more integrative. God’s Divine Love is GRACE and it is the power behind our salvation and all things. What the cross did was become the instrument by which God established the cornerstone of His Kingdom on earth and the means by which grace becomes directly accessible to us.

The cross, is also emblematic of our final cross roads and the point of decision by which through Jesus we may approach the literal doorway by which the blood of the lamb is sprinkled (as in passover) , the narrow gate, by which we enter into God’s Kingdom. The cross is also the key to heaven that opens heaven’s gates to humanity and lets us have access to the previously forbidden tree of life. On the tree of life hangs Jesus in the Eucharist, the salvific fruit which is the antidote to the poison of Eden’s forbidden fruit. The cross thus simultaneously integrates all of scripture into one place and becomes the key (which also is the wooden and narrow door) that God put on David’s offspring’s shoulder (literally by carrying the cross). The cross is the very same Key that Jesus gave to Peter and entrust to the Catholic Church through the authority of loosing and binding! The cross, every Christian’s heraldic symbol is the mark by which the Cherubim permit us to enter into heaven if our robes are washed clean by the blood of the lamb when we attempt to enter.

MD - You need to get out of the farm league and become Catholic bro!

Yes - consent is saying just as Mary said “Let me me done to be according to your Word”. Jesus is of course the Living Word of God. But let’s not forget that like Mary who carried Jesus to term for 40 weeks, raised the Child Jesus into adulthood we too must do our part and labor in our consent of love.

What are we arguing about?

James

I am amazed again. Perfect. Thank you.

 

[Pax]

…
…
But SAVE is something God Himself does - perfectly and *completely *at the time of belief in the Lord Jesus. Just as at the time of Abraham’s belief in the Lord, the Lord then reckoned it (his *belief *in Him) to him as righteousness. Abraham believed but it was God who justified.
…
…

moon,

If you wish to talk about Abraham in this fashion then you need to address my posts about Abraham and his justification, his faith, and his works. If you do not do so, then there is little point in your bringing him up at all.

 

[moondweller]

I riterate that I disagree with your assessment of “through faith” and “at the point in time of belief”.

I know you disagree. That’s why we’re discussing it. I hope to enlighten you.

With respect to “be faithful and hope to be saved”, Paul absolutely said such things. The problem you continually have is you only focus on the FIRST conversation Paul has with his listeners. You have part of the message: “believe and be saved” but you ignore the rest of Pauls message regarding Christian conduct AFTER they have “believed”.

You simply can’t get passed the principle of law, can you? Neither could the lawyer.

I dont believe in myself. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ in me. In so far as I do live, I live by faith.

Faith in what, Phil? That you’ll be good enough to the very end to merit salvation?

How amazing! Grace is still grace despite the fact that we have to DO something.

You keep veering off. God is the one who saves. We don’t save ourselves. And the basis for His saving has nothing to do with what man does but what Christ has done. What Christ has done, once for all, is the content of saving faith. It’s what men are to believe.

You are delirious! I believe that it is God who saves and I believe that it is by His grace alone.

Then why add “Christian conduct” to the equation? That’s a contradiction.

The first problem is your claim that somehow Christ altered the answer because he was speaking to a Jewish lawyer. Christ never says anything to that effect. He merely asks the lawyer what he thinks the law says. The lawyers answer happens to be correct. Christ merely acknowledges this, he never indicates that the answer is “right for you, but not for my disciples” Thats pure fantasy born of your need to ignore another message that contradicts your notion of what the faith is that brings eternal life.

Actually, it’s the lawyer who had the problem. And your problem is that you fail to identify his problem. And the reason you can’t see it is that you both have the identical problem regarding faith.

The second problem is your claim that the “Law could not give life”. It’s not that I disagree with the claim, but I never claimed “the Law gives life” and made no mention of the word “law”. You constantly bring it up - unprompted - for reasons that remain unclear. The context of our discussion is obeying the Commandments.

“Obeying the Commandments” IS the Law. I don’t keep bringing up law, YOU do! And that for salvation. I stress faith in Christ.

Do you think he lied to the lawyer - does obeying the Commandments not actually bring life? You dont need to bring other Scripture in to “refute” what Christ said - either he told the man the truth or he didnt. What’s your take on it?

The lawyer approached Jesus “to put Him to the test.” There wasn’t a lick of sincerity in the man’s questioning, and Jesus knew it. In His preaching ministry Jesus had already pointed to Himself as the object of faith and that whoever believes in Him HAS eternal life. The lawyer would have none of it. You need to comprehend the dialogue between them in its proper context, Phil.

This is the epitome of putting your theology into - and above - the text. The lawyer asks, plainly, “what must I do to inherit eternal life”. Christ says, “Do this (love God fully and neighbor as self) and you will live” And you somehow reach the conclusion that the “live” in Christ’s answer is not related to the “eternal life” in the lawyers question??? That is laughable IMHO, MD.

The lawyer did not believe in Christ but condescendingly “stood up to put Him to the test” according to the Law. So Jesus asked him what the Law stated. He replied, in essence, love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus answered him according to the Law: “Do this and you will live” (Lev. 18:5). Jesus did not say, “Do this and you will have eternal life.” He Himself is the source of eternal life. Loving God and your neighbor as yourself (keeping the Law) does not merit any man eternal life. One is merely doing what is expected.

Now what you miss, Phil., is the unbelieving arrogance of the lawyer. Rather than admitting his shortcomings, Luke records, “WISHING TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF,” he asked Jesus who his neighbor is. Jesus brought it all home with the story of the “Good Samaritan.” A Samaritan is someone the lawyer, being a Jew, inwardly despised. The moral of the story is that the despised Samaritan proved himself more righteous according to the Law than the lawyer who claimed to be an “expert” of it. In love, Jesus did what He needed to do for the lawyer. Shake the foundation of his self-righteousness. Who knows, maybe after the crucifixion and the Apostle’s gospel message concerning the cross, he finally turned to Christ in faith. If so, the Law fulfilled its purpose (see Gal. 3:24).

I’ll save you the trouble: there is no one, because salvation faith and faithfulness are inseparable.

But God saves men through “faith” (in Christ), not “faithfulness.”

Now its your turn: define “turning” and “trusting”. And tell me how one "trusts in Christ.

To repent is to turn one’s direction. To trust is to “believe in.” As in, “whoever believes in Him has eternal life.” So one repents (turns) from unbelief to belief in Christ. And in so doing God Himself saves him and he is given “everlasting life.” That’s LIFE EVERLASTING, Phil. Life that cannot end. It’s what the believer “HAS” in Christ.

Enough with the “this side of the cross” baloney.

It’s only baloney to those who don’t know the difference between Law and Grace.

On the contrary - it is you who has gone no further than what is needed to “get saved”. Paul did, and so did all the other NT writers - they went much further. They talked about how Christian are to behave - what they are to do - what it means to have faith throughout your life - what to avoid so that you will spend eternity knowing God. Your message stops, Im afraid, at what a non-Christian needs to do to become a Christian.

Define “saved.”

Consider it? Youve brought it up 400 times! Its time to move past this verse as if its the only one we need! It is only ONE of the MANY, MANY verses about eternal life. You like it because it’s the entirety of YOUR message. The problem is its not the ENTIRETY of the GOSPEL.

Oh but it is. Because God Himself actually SAVES: forgives all sins; redeems; reconciles to Himself; justifies; sanctifies and will glorify; all who believe in Christ. This is what Paul meant when he told the jailer, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED.”

 

[moondweller]

moon,

If you wish to talk about Abraham in this fashion then you need to address my posts about Abraham and his justification, his faith, and his works. If you do not do so, then there is little point in your bringing him up at all.

I already did. You still need to show me where it is recorded three times: “Then Abraham believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” I still find it recorded on only one occasion: Gen. 15:6.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I already did. You still need to show me where it is recorded three times: “Then Abraham believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” I still find it recorded on only one occasion: Gen. 15:6.

He already did, posts 34 and 35 on this thread. You must have missed them.

 

[moondweller]

He already did, posts 34 and 35 on this thread. You must have missed them.

No he didn’t. He only asserts the assumption. But as I have pointed out to Pax many, many times, it is stated that the Lord justified Abraham upon belief in Him on only one occasion: Gen. 15:6. Even James can only cite that one passage.

 

[Always_For_Him]

No he didn’t. He only asserts the assumption. But as I have pointed out to Pax many, many times, it is stated that the Lord justified Abraham upon belief in Him on only one occasion: Gen. 15:6. Even James can only cite that one passage.

Weren’t the other 2 being referenced regarding different events? Pax lays it out pretty convincingly in the remainder of thread 34 and all of 35.

All of this on how many times Abraham was justified is new to me, so obviously I am learning here as well. I will just have to stay tuned to see what comes of this question.

 

[moondweller]

Yes. We are in violent agreement and are arm wrestling instead of shaking hands.
I want to add one more subtlety from my own insight to this though. The cross is not only the means by which Jesus appeases God’s wrath and reconciles those that believe to The Father it also convicts those who do not believe.

How does the cross “convict” unbelievers?

After Jesus’ Resurrection those in hades awaiting heaven’s gates to be opened are in a state of waiting. When Jesus descended to “the dead” (hades - not hell) he taught those present. Those then were given the ultimate freedom to decide for themselves if they would follow Him through the unlocked gates of Heaven or to choose hell and reject Him.

I don’t accept this interpretation. The passage states nothing about a “second chance” salvation.

Again, God does not force salvation and eternal beatitude on anyone since love must be freely consented to.

Belief is consent, isn’t it?

This is the entire answer to the reason that God conceived to make Creation. Divine Providence is objectively focused on only one outcome - maximum glory to The Son. This is why man fell - to bring a greater Glory to The Son and to manifest God’s love for His Son to all created beings in permitting them to share in that glory.

So then man didn’t fall by his own free will?

Yes this is the good news. But Salvation is a function of many things. After baptism sin only becomes an issue if one is not charitable - love of both God and man.

With all your words you still miss the power of the cross. In light of the cross, with our sins being laid on the Substitute, the issue of salvation is not sin but belief. Upon belief ALL sins are forgiven. If “love of both God and man” is the issue, then men are being judged according to LAW, grace (and the cross) is made void.

Belief, like trust, comes through faith - all are necessary but not sufficient.

Actually, “trust” is a product of “belief.” When one believes God’s Word concerning the Person and work of Christ on his behalf, trust in God follows. Abraham believed in the Lord and His trust in Him grew.

Belief is sufficient for God to save according to His grace: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and will be saved.” What you don’t believe is the sufficiency of grace.

Yes we must believe (have faith) and we must trust (both in God’s love and mercy).

Faith must have an object. The object of salvation faith is the Person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ. Through such faith God SAVES the sinner, perfectly and completely.

But we must also as an expression of Charity EXPRESS our love and collectively bear good fruit in the basking light of God’s grace just as a vine is watered and in due season bears good fruit; this fruit being suitable to God’s purposes.

“Fruit bearing” is for discipleship, not salvation. The saved believer (the branch) is to abide in Christ, the Vine (his Source of power), in order to bear much fruit. The believer is now, positionally “in Christ” and seated with Him in the heavenly (Col. 3:1-3; Eph. 2:6), but he is to volitionally “abide” in Christ during his walk on earth, in order to “bear fruit.” Salvation and discipleship are two different issues.

Just like in baptism - we MUST DO things we must also walk-the-walk, talk-the-talk and demonstrate our faith and love through action (some call work). Further we must be ready to carry our cross and if necessary suffer and die for Christ.

But not FOR salvation. “For by grace you have been saved through FAITH…a gift of God…not as a result of works”

By baptism we are reborn into both Jesus’ suffering and His glory.

One is “reborn” upon faith in Christ. Only believers were/are to be baptized. And the believer is born again into the resurrected Christ, not the suffering Christ. It’s His resurrected LIFE he receives upon belief. That’s what makes it “eternal life.”

Cooperation with God’s grace is essential.

It is God who saves, man does not save himself. “For by grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED…” Not, “By cooperation you will be saved…”

If we stumble while carrying our cross we must get up, seek forgiveness and press onward to our glory.

You still stumble over the cross.

You have it a little confused here MD. It’s much more integrative. God’s Divine Love is GRACE and it is the power behind our salvation and all things. What the cross did was become the instrument by which God established the cornerstone of His Kingdom on earth and the means by which grace becomes directly accessible to us.

Grace doesn’t become accessible to us. It is the means by which God Himself SAVES, completely and perfectly, the one who believes the gospel concerning the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

The cross, is also emblematic of our final cross roads and the point of decision by which through Jesus we may approach the literal doorway by which the blood of the lamb is sprinkled (as in passover) , the narrow gate, by which we enter into God’s Kingdom. The cross is also the key to heaven that opens heaven’s gates to humanity and lets us have access to the previously forbidden tree of life. On the tree of life hangs Jesus in the Eucharist, the salvific fruit which is the antidote to the poison of Eden’s forbidden fruit. The cross thus simultaneously integrates all of scripture into one place and becomes the key (which also is the wooden and narrow door) that God put on David’s offspring’s shoulder (literally by carrying the cross). The cross is the very same Key that Jesus gave to Peter and entrust to the Catholic Church through the authority of loosing and binding! The cross, every Christian’s heraldic symbol is the mark by which the Cherubim permit us to enter into heaven if our robes are washed clean by the blood of the lamb when we attempt to enter.

You have made the cross into a mere religious “symbol.” And ultimately men must work their way into heaven. You have described neither the cross nor the power of God toward those who believe because of it. All that you say above is very “pretty,” but it is not “the gospel.”

MD - You need to get out of the farm league and become Catholic bro!

Yes - consent is saying just as Mary said “Let me me done to be according to your Word”. Jesus is of course the Living Word of God. But let’s not forget that like Mary who carried Jesus to term for 40 weeks, raised the Child Jesus into adulthood we too must do our part and labor in our consent of love.

What are we arguing about?

Law vs. GRACE. You’re still arguing Law.

 

[BRB]

.“Fruit bearing” is for discipleship, not salvation. The saved believer (the branch) is to abide in Christ, the Vine (his Source of power), in order to bear much fruit. The believer is now, positionally “in Christ” and seated with Him in the heavenly (Col. 3:1-3; Eph. 2:6), but he is to volitionally “abide” in Christ during his walk on earth, in order to “bear fruit.” Salvation and discipleship are two different issues…

I’d say this about your above comments. Discipleship FOLLOWS salvation, but Christ will not offer us salvation until we FULLY CONSENT to become lifelong disciples. Thus, salvation is Contingent upon discipleship.

We are saved “just as we are, without one good work to show for ourselves” … but, with a Commitment [a Covenant] we make to Christ, to be forever Disciples. Then, Christ certifies/guarantees us to the Father … and the Father will adopt us into his Kingdom.

Christ is our broker. He is the ONLY ONE that can carry us to the Father. We must come to him AT THE CROSS … to find our FREE GIFT of salvation.

Once the Father gives us adoption into eternal son/daughership via ‘work’ [of Christ alone] on the cross … he returns us to the care of Christ & H.S. The Trinity instills within us the H.S. [the essential illumination rebirth ].

Christ & his spirit [H.S.] … enable the new convert to ‘realize’ Fruitful Works befitting discipleship.

Its a Continuum spiritual process [Covenant] that will not be abrogated by the Trinity. Unless, we commit satan’s Apostasy.

 

[BRB]

]."It is God who saves, man does not save himself. .

True, but lets consider WHAT IS man/woman’s part in the spiritual healing process.

H.S. draws us to the Word. We must take action … ‘verbally’ giving ‘free will’ consent to Christ to become our King. We also must ‘verbally’ promise obedience. We must ‘verbally’ pray the salvation prayer to Christ.

Simply put … we must PRAY to the Lord to give us ‘spiritual healing’ and ‘new life’ in Himself’.

This is what David did. And this is what the Lord did for David. And, the Lord never abandoned David thereafter.

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s take another look at John 15:6:

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

The word “abide” in Greek is meno, which means to remain, continue, stay, etc. We find a variant of this same Greek word (epimeno) in Romans 11:22-23, which has a similar theme and clearly refers to true Christians:

**22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in (epimeno) His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in (epimeno) their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. **

We also find this same word (meno) used in the following passages, and the obvious meaning is to continue in the place, condition, or state one is already in:

1 Corinthians 7:11, 20

**11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. **

Acts 16:15

15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

Other examples are Matthew 26:38, Acts 5:4, 9:43, 18:20, 21:7, 27:31, 1 Timothy 2:15, etc. So what place, condtion, or state does Jesus say we must abide/ continue/ stay in? He clearly says “IN ME.” Not in “my visible church” or in “fellowship”, but IN CHRIST. And in order to abide/continue/stay or not abide/continue/stay in Him, one must logically be in Him first. Which means that we can cease being in Christ, and hence cease being saved, since there is no salvation outside of Christ. This fits perfectly with what Jesus says regarding those who do not abide/continue/stay in Him. Here is the order of events:

1)cast forth
2)withered
3)cast into the fire and burned

The person/ branch is cut off from Christ the Vine, withers - which means death and is a result of the cutting off - and is cast into the fire (i.e. eternal damnation.) It makes sense that once cut off from the Vine the branch would wither because “life is in the Son” (! John 5:11). If you are cut off from the Son, you are cut off from the source of life and die. Once outside of Christ the Vine, the only end is hell. The Vine is not only the source of power, it is the source of life.

Now there are proponents of OSAS who accept that the cast forth branches refer to genuine Christians, but that the “cast into the fire” is not a reference to hell, pointing to other passages that speak about fire (1 Corinthians 3:14-15). It’s true that “fire” in the Bible can refer to a number of different things. However, what gives meaning to a word is often the phrase in which it is being used. For example, "trinity"can mean three of anything. But “the Trinity” refers to God. Another example is the phrase “in Christ.” Used separately, those two words can be used in different senses. Used together, those words have only one meaning. So let’s allow Christ to define His own terms and let’s see how He actually uses “cast into the fire” in other passages.

Matthew 3:10,12

**10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
12"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." **

Matthew 13:49-50

49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Other examples are Matthew 7:19, 18:40-42, etc. In every instance where Jesus uses “cast into the fire” during his preaching/ teaching ministry, He clearly uses it as a reference to eternal damnation. So why must we suddenly change the established use of this phrase in John 15:6? Moreover, note what He says in John 15:6:

**"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

Who is the “they” that does the gathering? This exactly corresponds to Jesus’s own description of eternal damnation:

Matthew 13:49-50

49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:39-40

**…and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. **

Consequently, the apostles would have clearly understood what Jesus said in John 15:6 as a reference to eternal damantion. Also note that it is the branch (i.e. the person) that is cast into the fire and burned, not the person’s works (symbolized by fruit). So John 15:1-6 clearly contradicts the notion of OSAS.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I already did. You still need to show me where it is recorded three times: “Then Abraham believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” I still find it recorded on only one occasion: Gen. 15:6.

If faith is trust in the work of Christ for salvation, what was the content of Abraham’s faith, being that he was not aware of Christ and His Cross?

God bless,
Michael