The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[ryanoneil]

Thanks for your post, Ryan, we very obviously have different views concerning baptism; as a reminder, the point of my post to which your post responds is simple: 1 Pet 3:21 does not refer to water baptism.

Thank you for your original post. It is nice to understand where a different position is coming from. And my point was to say 1 Pet 3:21 does refer to water baptism

With respect to the typology you present, IMO, Catholic typology is wildly out of control.

Where the apostles give clear statements to typology, such as Christ and the Passover, circumcision and baptism, Adam and Christ, and so on, I’m in whole-hearted agreement. However, when those without authority to do so, posit typology with abandon, I take it with
a pound of salt, rather than a grain.

I know I don’t have any authority, but it sure seems like clear apostolic typology to me. Baptism and the flood.

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. . .

The OT reference was about the earthly life, and the NT reference is about the spiritual life.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Peace

 

[Pax]

I have never denied that the RC gives a “nod” to grace; however, ISTM that putting works under the umbrella of grace and then claiming that it’s grace that saves by works is trickery.

Again: If it’s grace, it’s no longer on the basis of what you do (in any way), otherwise, grace is no longer grace (cf Rom 11:6).

Trickery? You are really stretching your taffy-ized logic. Let’s try an analogy to clarify this just a bit. Consider an automobile that just came off the assembly line without any gasoline in the tank. Everyone knows that the car will not run without gasoline no matter how hard a person might try to get it to run without fuel. That car is dead in its tracks until filled with fuel.

Human beings are born without grace. No matter how hard a human being might try, that person cannot not know God, be known by God, lift themselves out of sin, please God in any way shape or form without grace. Grace is like the fuel in the automobile analogy. Without gas the car cannot start and cannot be driven. Likewise, without grace people cannot do anything to please God or lift themselves out of sin.

Grace is the great enabler and is the gift that brings salvation. Grace is such that our salvation includes regeneration and good works. Let me show you by scripture what I’m talking about when it comes to grace. Here is but a sampling:

Rom 5:17
If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness **exercise dominion in life through **the one man, Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

Phill 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; **for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. **

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

So what will be the result of this power that God has put to work in us to do His will for his good pleasure. Scripture tells us the following:

Romans 16:20
the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Romans 6:6-7
We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin.

1 John 5:2-4
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.

Romans 8:28-29
We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,

And then there are these verses which speak to our “conquering” which is of course only possible through God’s grace:

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.’

Rev 2:26-29 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:4-5 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev 3:11-13 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:21-22 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Rev 21: 7-8 He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

I hope this helps to bring Catholic teaching into focus.

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

I personally don’t care what Moody does or does not believe and I’m not in a hurry to find out. My only point of bringing him up was because a Catholic Apologist quoted him to point out Jn 10:28 was not referring to a past tense completed event but rather a present-tense continuing event, which indicates perseverance is required.

‘My sheep keep on hearing my voice, and I keep on knowing them, and they keep on following me: and I “keep on giving” them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.’ Some read the passage as if it says: ‘My sheep “heard” my voice, and I “knew” them, and they “followed” me, and I “gave” to them eternal life.’ [But]

The verbs are present linear, indicating continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd, not the punctiliar fallacy of the past tense." (Moody, 357)

I looked at the link, and that explains a lot. That’s from Akin’s debate with James White, and the only thing posted is part of what Akin said, and nothing of what White said. It’s making sense now.

Alright Dude, let’s continue with this.

Akin says that he’s a former-Calvinist, as memory serves me, correct me if I’m wrong. If that’s the case, then he knows that that position posits that those elect to salvation (those foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified) will be just that, as God cannot fail, and He will lose none, as the quotes from the Moody Handbook of Theology stated; did you read them?

At the least, that should have been stated as well, because the way the link reads will confuse people, as you demonstrate.

Though both Calvinists and Arminians were both somewhat uncomfortable with Moody’s position, he nevertheless believed with the Calvinists, that “once in [saving] gracing, always in [saving] grace.” But that’s not brought out in your link.

Be that as it may, with respect to Greek verb tensing, those tenses are in the present, and the Gk present contains within it the idea of continuing action.

Thus, as Moody says, the verse would literally read: My sheep keep on hearing my voice, and I keep on knowing them, and they keep on following me; and I keep on giving them eternal life… etc.,

And, as Moody says, “The verbs are present linear, indicating continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd… Someone erroneously inserted the word, “But,” in brackets, marked in “red” above. It doesn’t belong there! I can’t imagine Moody putting it there, because it indicates a contrast between his literal phrasing, when no contrast exists.

Mark what Moody says: “present linear, indicating continuous action.” He doesn’t say continuous action is a requirement for fulfillment, but that the verb indicates a continuous ongoing action is indeed occurring: They keep on hearing…I keep on knowing…they keep on following…I keep on giving…

Moving on, the present is not “conditional,” but “actual”—Jesus and the Sheep do keep on doing the things that are mentioned.

You are given the impression that what it means is this: If my sheep keep on hearing my voice, and if I keep on knowing them, and if they keep on following me…

That’s not the case. Both parties keep doing the action of the verb.

As Scripture, and the Moody Handbook states concerning election: God cannot fail; and He will lose none.

 

[sandusky]

Well, opinions are like elbows…everybody got some. You are certainly entitled to yours, but not all opinions are created equal. Last night I began looking at the ECF’s and thus far Augustine, Tertullian, and Origen all disagree with your view of baptism. I wasn’t able to check beyond them, but I dare say that your opinion gets spanked by the ECFs.

I agreed with that earlier in the day in response to mikeledes saying the same thing:

Yes they did, and, IMO, that [view of baptism] is the most unified, unanimous, and least contested teaching of the Church up to the reformation.

I think that teaching is the result of the post-apostolic Church’s wrong belief that she replaced Israel, and inherited all of the promises God made exclusively to Israel, and in error, she modeled herself, her liturgy etc. after the OT covenant rather than the NT covenant.

 

[moondweller]

Now you see…you’ve done it again. You’ve distorted what I and others have said.

Shall we give you high fives for that and concede and convert to your belief? Hardly.

Now I will ask you a simple and straight forward question.

Why do you find it necessary to deliberately distort our views?

I’ve distorted nothing. What real assurance do you have, Pax, that you’re presently “being saved,” and in the end you “will be saved?” Do they at all depend on your performance?

 

[Church_Militant]

You have no assurance at all, Pax. You have no idea if you’ll "be saved

" at the end of your life because according to your theology you’re “being saved” daily based on the quality of your “love” for God as demonstrated by your works.According to the Word of God, you’re in precisely the same situation and anyone who teaches you different is going to answer for it according to James 3:1.

For you Catholics (and BRB), Jesus did His part, now you must do yours. But you can have no assurance that you’re doing, or have done, your part, Pax. You don’t even know if you’re deceiving yourself.

This is presumption on your part and fallacy.

It is true that a Catholic does not have the “assurance of salvation” that proponents of “OSAS” or the “Eternal Security of the believer” assert that one should, but we Catholics find the scriptural interpretation for those beliefs deficient and so reject them. That we (according to your interpretation anyway) lack them actually does not bother us since it is a false hope based on a twisted interpretation of scriptures.

You don’t know in the end if you’ve "covered all the bases

." Not even those whom you’ve set up as your “umpires” (Popes, Priest & Prelates) can help you there. They have no assurance themselves (they’re being judged by the same performance law - only stricter). Hold it. Let’s make something very clear here. The Catholic teachings on salvation are found directly in scripture and can be traced right back to the New Testament and the apostles. The opposing view, (yours in this case) cannot.
Who REALLY Preaches A Different Gospel?

So…essentially what you say here is not a problem for us since so far as we are concerned, you decry our leaders, and the mountains of scriptural and traditional as well as historically verifiable Christian writings that contradict the modern new winds of doctrines of men you apparently follow?

I’m sorry, I think not.

Yours is the "hope so

" World Series. You’ve yet to find out who wins and can only hope it’s you. It’s all based on your performance, and you’re not done playing the game.This is of course a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching. The kind that some know as “a Straw Man argument”. One creates a fictitious position for your opponent (Us Catholics in this case) based on what you misinterpret, or misrepresent us to believe and then blast it to shreds. At first glance it seems brilliant, until someone has the God given common sense to point out that do not rely on our works to get us into Heaven, but actually follow precisely what Matthew 25:31-46 and Galatians 5:6 teaches. Summed up in that last passage as “faith that worketh by charity”.

 

[Church_Militant]

How Is A Catholic Saved?
Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38 & 22:16) and then following Christ, (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23) which is a lifelong journey and not the oversimplified “plan of salvation” as presented by some non-Catholic communities.

 

[guanophore]

Then your faith is also imperfect. Does that imperfect faith affect your salvation? If imperfect faith is tied to salvation then there is no reason to suggest that imperfect works are not also tied to salvation. We receive grace for both our imperfect faith and our imperfect works. That grace is what perfects us in both.

This sums it up perfectlyl Pax. In this simple rebuttal you have accurately summarized the almost 2000 posts! Well done.

I have been pondering the other question you asked about where the need comes from to distort the teaching. I see that it is tied to an twisted mental construct that reflects an inability to do what you have here. Salvation is based upon grace. There are other elements tied to it, such as faith and works, but those human responses :coffeeread: connected to salvation do not change the basis at all. I think the inability to grasp this may be a manifestation of ego distortion. If one is unable to hold the basis of grace in one’s mind at the same time that one is aware that faith and works are connected to it, it may be because one does not have an accurate self perception. If the thought of one’s own entrance and action in response to grace throws one’s whole foundation off the grace, then perhaps there is an inadequate understanding of the nature and function of the human being in the first place.

 

[guanophore]

Yes they did, and, IMO, that [view of baptism] is the most unified, unanimous, and least contested teaching of the Church up to the reformation.

I think that teaching is the result of the post-apostolic Church’s wrong belief that she replaced Israel, and inherited all of the promises God made exclusively to Israel, and in error, she modeled herself, her liturgy etc. after the OT covenant rather than the NT covenant.

This seems to be a testimony to the weakness and carelessness of God. OSAS folks say that he will not fail to save those whom he has justfied, but He seems somehow to weak or disinterested to Guide the Church, for whom He gave His life.

“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-28

The Spirit He gave, intended to guide them into all Truth, fell down on the job, I guess.

John 16:13-15
3 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Then your faith is also imperfect.

Yes.

Pax:

Does that imperfect faith affect your salvation?

No, Pax.**Psalm 103:13-14

Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him.

For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust.**

Pax:

If imperfect faith is tied to salvation then there is no reason to suggest that imperfect works are not also tied to salvation.

I never said that it did Pax; that’s a conclusion to which you jumped.

Pax:

We receive grace for both our imperfect faith and our imperfect works.

That’s because imperfect faith and works is all anyone has; only one has perfect works.

Pax:

That grace is what perfects us in both.

Which perfection will not occur until the moment you stop breathing.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve distorted nothing. What real assurance do you have, Pax, that you’re presently “being saved,” and in the end you “will be saved?” Do they at all depend on your performance?

It is a mystery how you can say things like this. There are so many blessed assurances in Scripture. I marvel that you can believe they will apply to yourself, but no one who does not embrace your theological perspective. is God so limited?

" His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, 7 and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you." 2 Peter 1:3-11

How can you not see that these qualities and actions being in a person, and increasing, are evidence that Christ will richly provide?

Do OSAS people believe it is not necessary to “confrim your call and election”?

 

[guanophore]

Yes.

No, Pax.Psalm 103:13-14

Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him.

For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust.

I never said that it did Pax; that’s a conclusion to which you jumped.

That’s because imperfect faith and works is all anyone has; only one has perfect works.

Which perfection will not occur until the moment you stop breathing.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[moondweller]

How Is A Catholic Saved?
Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38 & 22:16) and then following Christ, (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23) which is a lifelong journey and not the oversimplified “plan of salvation” as presented by some non-Catholic communities.

I know. This lifelong journey correlates with your “being saved” and “will be saved” doctrine. What’s conspicuously missing in the above formula is “believe.” Here’s the words of Christ Himself on the issue:John 3:12-18 “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Too “simplified and a “different gospel” you say? Then Paul too is quilty as charged:Acts 16:30-31” Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…,"Both Christ’s and Paul’s message may be simple but it’s not simplified. It includes the word “believe,” which your formula leaves out. Jesus said:John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."Is it possible for one to live a “lifelong journey” of “following” Jesus and yet never “believe in” Him? Most certainly. And those who do, “do,” rather than believe what God has DONE!.

 

[BRB]

.

It is true that a Catholic does not have the “assurance of salvation” that proponents of “OSAS” or the “Eternal Security of the believer” assert that one should, but we Catholics find the scriptural interpretation for those beliefs deficient and so reject them. That we (according to your interpretation anyway) lack them actually does not bother us since it is a false hope based on a twisted interpretation of scriptures. “faith that worketh by charity”.

Speak for yourself CM … some Catholics don’t agree with you

We’ve already established here that Peter talks/preached S.A.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

This sums it up perfectlyl Pax. In this simple rebuttal you have accurately summarized the almost 2000 posts! Well done.

**I have been pondering the other question you asked about where the need comes from to distort the teaching. I see that it is tied to an twisted mental construct that reflects an inability to do what you have here. Salvation is based upon grace. There are other elements tied to it, such as faith and works, but those human responses connected to salvation do not change the basis at all. I think the inability to grasp this may be a manifestation of ego distortion.**I’ve been quoting from the CCC—how is quoting the CCC, and letting it speak “distorting the teaching?”

guanophore:

If one is unable to hold the basis of grace in one’s mind at the same time that one is aware that faith and works are connected to it, it may be because one does not have an accurate self perception. If the thought of one’s own entrance and action in response to grace throws one’s whole foundation off the grace, then perhaps there is an inadequate understanding of the nature and function of the human being in the first place.

The reformed/biblical view of man is the accurate view—hands down.

guanophore:

This seems to be a testimony to the weakness and carelessness of God. OSAS folks say that he will not fail to save those whom he has justfied, but He seems somehow to weak or disinterested to Guide the Church,

for whom He gave His life. The true church is the elect/justified, those whom God also glorified in eternity past—that’s what Christ calls them, and why Christ calls them ekklasia in Mt 16:18 from ekkaleo—the "called out ones.”

 

[BRB]

I know. This lifelong journey correlates with your “being saved” and “will be saved” doctrine. What’s conspicuously missing in the above formula is “believe.” Here’s the words of Christ Himself on the issue:John 3:12-18 “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, **has **eternal life, and **does not **come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Too “simplified and a “different gospel” you say? Then Paul too is quilty as charged:Acts 16:30-31” Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…,"Both Christ’s and Paul’s message may be simple but it’s not simplified. It includes the word “believe,” which your formula leaves out. Jesus said:John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."Is it possible for one to live a “lifelong journey” of “following” Jesus and yet never “believe in” Him? Most certainly. And those who do, “do,” rather than believe what God has DONE!.

Home run ! This my friends is a longball … beyond recall.

A 3-cord of St. John, St. Paul & Christ … is a Salvation certainty.

Protestants off today on an early rally. No outs, no errs.

CM … a Hurricane is headed your way

 

[BRB]

The true church is the elect/justified, those whom God also glorified in eternity past—that’s what Christ calls them, and why Christ calls them ekklasia in Mt 16:18 from ekkaleo—the "called out ones.”

Nice hit thru the ‘unprotected’ gap … safe on first base.

Actually, quoting CCC to a Catholic is worthy of an extra base.

Sandman advances to second…

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

I couldn’t think of anything, but clearly at the end we came out with opposite understandings. The passed thru the sea, were delivered from death via the water, but you say it has nothing to do with water.

They were delivered from death by the ark, guanophore, who is Christ, that’s Peter’s point—baptism is not Christ, but the ark—ISTM, you see all kinds of “spiritual things” in the scripture, but you miss Christ.

guanophore:

Yes, but the water was the source of death, just as it is in baptism.

You see all kinds of “spiritual things,” but you miss Christ…

guanophore:

God used Cornelius to show Peter that, what God had called clean, he should accept.

No He didn’t, He used a dream to show Peter that. He then sent Peter to Cornelius, and when Peter saw that Cornelius and those in his household had received the Spirit “in the same manner as the Jews,” then they baptized.

guanophore:

If that is the case with Paul, then why did the prophet tell him “rise, be baptized, washing away your sins” ?

The significance of baptism, and the connection of the forgiveness of sins to it is this: ***“in the name of Christ”:***Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”In the name of Christ,” that’s what they’ve repented to (For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God—1 Thess 1:9), and now believe that the forgiveness of sins is in the name of Christ and confession thereupon.

Baptism didn’t die for the forgiveness of sins—Christ did!

guanophore:

I understand this is Reformed Teaching, but it is not consistent with what the Apostles taught, as we see in the above passage about Paul’s baptism.

As with Cornelius, so with Paul the reception of the Spirit was prior to baptism—read the account.

guanophore:

Well, if you study the history of circumcision, it is clear that the uncircumcised are not considered members of the covenant.

That’s in the history contained in the Scripture.

guanophore:

I still don’t understand. I asked you if there was a difference between an ordinance and a commandment.

No.

guanophore:

Well, invention of Jesus actually, but Catholics have preserved them.

That’s easy to say.

 

[Church_Militant]

I know. This lifelong journey correlates with your "being saved

" and “will be saved” doctrine. What’s conspicuously missing in the above formula is “believe.” What’s actually “conspicuously missing” is the context of the New Testament on salvation.

I defy you to produce any authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching document that anywhere even remotely infers that belief is not part of that.

You can’t because none such exists, so again, you make a big deal of beating the daylights out of a complete straw man.

Speak for yourself CM … some Catholics don’t agree with you

We’ve already established here that Peter talks/preached S.A.

Not so, only one with a twisted interpretation of scripture would even assert such a thing.

You cannot produce these so called supporting Petrine scriptures and not have them refuted by the context of the rest of the New Testament, though I’m sure that you and many other n-Cs/a-Cs fervently wish they could.

[As for your little cheerleading/score keeping posts.

CM fires the third strike pitch across the plate for the out while the catcher (the New Testament itself in this case) drills the throw to 2nd where the advancing runner is picked off and the 2nd baseman, (the teaching magisterium of the Catholic Church this time) turns and fires to third, for the triple play.

It’s game over ladies and gentle men…and the crowd goes wild with praises to God!]

 

[ryanoneil]

I think that teaching is the result of the post-apostolic Church’s wrong belief that she replaced Israel, and inherited all of the promises God made exclusively to Israel, and in error, she modeled herself, her liturgy etc. after the OT covenant rather than the NT covenant.

Replaced Israel? We were grafted in and did not replace. Romans 11

Exclusive promises? Which ones were you refering to?

For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. (Rom 4:16-17)

But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants. (Rom 9:6-8)

Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith. . . that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. . . Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his descendant. It does not say, “And to descendants,” as referring to many, but as referring to one, “And to your descendant,” who is Christ. . . For if the inheritance comes from the law, it is no longer from a promise; but God bestowed it on Abraham through a promise. . . And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:9;14;16;18;29)