The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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Paul’s teaching on the Law and the believer went right over your head, didn’t it, Mike?

Based on your reply you’re still under the false notion that the only relationship God can have with man is one based on Law. And the only way man would ever conduct himself properly on earth is with the threat of Divine damnation held over him. That’s not the gospel, Mike.
So how does a believer conduct himself properly?
Actually, three. There’s “ultimate” sanctification.Not all to the same degree. That’s why there’s many exhortations in the Epistles for the believer to walk in a manner worthy of his calling with which which he’d been called (Eph. 4:1; Rom. 12:1-2) And to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Pet. 3:18).
Various things can dampen a believer’s experiential sanctification: sin, false teachings, worldly ambitions, lack of knowledge of God’s Word, self-imposing the Law, etc. But, of course, salvation itself is not based on *experiential *sanctification.
How is this experiential sanctification accomplished in the believer? What does it involve? Do all true believers persevere in this experiential sanctification?

God bless,
Michael
 
reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Philthy …
Another one for our list from Paul on Salvation ASSURANCE…

Thanks Pax 😃
 
You guys completely remove “stoney” moral law so no one would have a problem taking the 10 commandments and any other written cannon law as a marker for obsolete and deprecated teaching; then have it used as a red cape to agitate the bull to sin in order to prove you faith and thesis! As best I can make of it, your thesis seems to be along the lines of ‘you can’t sin in the law so sin boldly to prove you believe that sin no longer has a hold on you’. :eek: :eek:
Where has anyone here encouraged breaking the 10, or other cannon law ? We are simply quoting Paul’s views on the inability of the written law to effect salvation.

We are to obey the law out of devotion / love for Christ, who paid ALL our sin penalty @ Cross … not to gain his favor or to have any hope of gaining eternal life via our ineffectual attempts @ keeping OT laws.

Consider case of David. He knew Christ via H.S before he committed murder and adultery. Did God reject him for breaking at least two mortal laws ? No
Scott Hahn makes the point he “would sin like David did … if only he could confess as well as David did”

God looks at the heart, he desires confession and contrition of heart. David had both … so he was forgiven and remained God’s favorite King. God loved David so much … he let Christ come via David’s lineage.

Its always been about obedience [from love], confession, and the inner intentions of man/woman. But, now we have a better understanding of the purpose of the Law — from the Gospel, as explained particularly well by John, Peter, and Paul.
 
  • Abraham was justified by his works in sacrificing Isaac.
Yes, works [borne of faith and obedience to God’s command].

Works can reflect faith/obedience … if our motive is right. But, oftentimes works are done in man’s attempt to justify ourselves before God. [Pharisees for example … promoting the Big 10, etc … and not keeping].

If works flow from our faith … then they are inspired and truly reflect our proper intentions of desire to please God. As James teaches , w/o visible works … one must conclude the faith is weak or non-existent.

So … we follow the law to please God & and in expectation of heavenly rewards ---- not to earn our salvation gift.
 
If I am parroting anyone, it’s Paul and the other N.T. writers.

Then grace is no longer grace.Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.Your “it is up to us” boils down to works with the message that salvation, ultimately, is based on what you do, not on what Christ has done. This nonbiblical notion that “Christ did His thing, now we must do ours” is nothing less than salvation by works, not grace, and diametrically opposed to what Paul plainly states in Rom. 11:6 above.Originally taught? That makes no sense. What we have in the N.T. are the original teachings regarding the faith preserved for us in Holy Writ. What you’re claiming is there’s an original interpretation of the N.T. preserved in Rome somewhere. Hey, James, not even your Magisterium has produced an “official” interpretation (commentary) on the whole N.T.

Notice that there’s only ONE letter addressed to the church at Rome. And it wasn’t from Peter but from Paul. And it’s not addressed to the “official interpreters” in Rome. There was no such thing, never was. And when the church at Corinth received its letters, there is no record of them sending to Rome for an official interpreter. Nor did the Ephesians or the Galatians or the Jewish believers who received letters from Peter, James and the writer of Hebrews. There is absolutely no instruction by any of the writers of the N.T. to appoint official interpreters of Scripture. But instead, the letters and gospel accounts were copied and passed around to all the churches. James, when you receive a letter in the mail do you have an “official interpreter” appointed in your house? Do you have somebody interpret this message of mine for you?

Now it is true the Scriptures need to be studied. But God has raised up within the Body of Christ teachers to facilitate in that matter, many being mere “layman” (the N.T. does not mention priests (Gr. hiereus) in the church, only bishops/overseers (Gr. eposkopos), elders (Gr. presbyteros) and deacons (Gr. diakonos); none of which are called priests (hiereus).

The false separation of “clergy” and “layman” was a later development and has no Biblical support. There is only the general priesthood of believers, who themselves are called “saints.”

No teacher raised up by God teaches a gospel of works. Such are false teachers which Peter warned/predicted would rise up among us (2 Pet. 2:1).You mean not in conformity to your church tradition.But the Scriptures do not and are the original source."Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Grace (unmerited favor) is the means by which God saves (completely) the believer, not a means by which He assists a believer to work for his salvation. The grace by which He saves, through faith, is sovereign grace. Because of the cross it is His right to save, and He remains righteous (just) when He does. Christ having met all the requirements. What you’re not understanding is the power of the cross:1 Cor 1:18 “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved (through faith) it is the power of God.”

Eph 2:16 "…and might reconcile them both (Jew and Gentile) in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.Now if you look at Eph. 2:16 in context, James, you’ll see the “enmity” between Jew and Gentile is “the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances.” This, through the cross, says Paul, He abolished and “in Himself” He makes the two (both believing Jew and Gentile) into one new man (Eph. 2:15, called “the church”). All of this has nothing to do with works, and certainly not the Law with its Decalogue.Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."It’s a false assumption, indeed, to think that they taught something entirely differently “by mouth,” from that which they taught “by letter.” And anyway, it is only the Scriptures that are theopneustos (God-breathed). It doesn’t mean they weren’t verbally speaking truth, but theopneustos only refers to the written Scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16). And it is impossible to accurately preserve that which is verbally delivered. That’s why God provided us with the God-breathed Scriptures.No, Moses delivered those to Israel at Mt. Sinai through the covenant of Law. As a Man, a Jew, born under the Law, Jesus fulfilled them perfectly. He Himself actually being another “Adam,” a Federal Head with a posterity, made righteous, now “in Him,” through faith in Him alone.
I think the others beat me to it in correcting you. Which is good since you made so many outrageous and untruthful claims here that I might have been less charitable than the others here.
So see the above rebuttals and correction.

As a final parting comment consider if Mary as “full of grace” did not have a choice in consenting to the Incarnation? Of course she had a choice! Otherwise it would have been tantamount to divine rape (God forbid such a thought!) for God to force His grace on her to invoke the Incarnation without her consent and cooperation. Grace is LOVE and it requires our cooperation - it is not unidirectional and always requires consent. Please use some common sense.

Don’t forget once Mary became impregnated with Jesus MARY had to carry the Child Jesus (out of love) for 40 weeks under difficult circumstances (traveling by horse/foot while pregnant and poor and harsh conditions) to full term! If that is not cooperating with grace then I don’t know what is. If this does not get the point across to you I have nothing more to offer you from a common sense example.

James
 
since you made so many outrageous and untruthful claims here that I might have been less charitable than the others here.
. Please use some common sense.

If this does not get the point across to you I have nothing more to offer you from a common sense example.

James
🤷 Jim — gets no Charity points for this rebutal

Lucky for MD, Jim has no more commonsense to offer 😃
 
If I am parroting anyone, it’s Paul and the other N.T. writers.Then grace is no longer grace.Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.Your “it is up to us” boils down to works with the message that salvation, ultimately, is based on what you do, not on what Christ has done. This nonbiblical notion that “Christ did His thing, now we must do ours” is nothing less than salvation by works, not grace, and diametrically opposed to what Paul plainly states in Rom. 11:6 above.
Romans 11:6 is specifically about election/ predestination:

Romans 11:5-6

5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.


And the Catholic Church teaches the following regarding predestination and good works:

**(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. **

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

God Bless,
Michael
 
This is an excellent link…it goes far in eliminating some of the misunderstandings of Catholic teaching. I hope everyone reading this thread will take a look at it.
I love that link! It’s really informative. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
specifically about election/ predestination:

And the Catholic Church teaches the following regarding predestination and good works:

(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians.
Interesting, but could you clarify in simple language what the Church said above on the subject.

Paul puts it thusly:
Act 13:48-49 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained[elected] to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread thruout all the region.”
 
Interesting, but could you clarify in simple language what the Church said above on the subject.

Paul puts it thusly:
Act 13:48-49 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained[elected] to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread thruout all the region.”
What do you mean?

God bless,
Michael
 
What do you mean?

God bless,
Michael
That link explains Pelagian and Semipelagian beliefs, but I’ve no idea from it what the Church believes regarding Predestination.

Augustine saying “that God does not will equally the salvation of all” … sounds blasphemous on first read. Christ welcomed All peoples and called all his children.
 
Interesting, but could you clarify in simple language what the Church said above on the subject.

Paul puts it thusly:
Act 13:48-49 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained[elected] to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread thruout all the region.”
Though I’m not sure what part you didn’t understand, I’ll try to clarify it.🙂 The point is that membership in the elect (i.e. predestined to glory) is not determined by foreseen good works/ merits. In order to understand this, you must understand that predestination is not pure divine forekowledge of man’s choices (faith, works, etc.), which is basically the Arminian view. In the Catholic view, God plays a much more active role than a mere spectator or a rubber stamp.

Merits depend on grace and any reward for these merits depends on the grace of final perseverance (living and dying in a state of grace). How God choses to distribute His graces - from the very first grace that leads to conversion to the very last grace of final perseverance - so as to bring a person to final glorification is not determined by works/ merits.

God Bless,
Michael
 
That link explains Pelagian and Semipelagian beliefs, but I’ve no idea from it what the Church believes regarding Predestination.

Augustine saying “that God does not will equally the salvation of all” … sounds blasphemous on first read. Christ welcomed All peoples and called all his children.
The link gives an insight into the Catholic view that demonstrates the difficulties within non-Catholic objections to Catholic teaching on grace, faith, and works within God’s plan. The Catholic view encompasses all of scripture and illustrates the mystery and complexity of salvation and divine providence. It is for this reason that we argue salvation by grace alone, through faith and works with all of the power and glory going to God.

I hope this helps.
 
The link gives an insight into the Catholic view that demonstrates the difficulties within non-Catholic objections to Catholic teaching on grace, faith, and works within God’s plan. The Catholic view encompasses all of scripture and illustrates the mystery and complexity of salvation and divine providence. It is for this reason that we argue salvation by grace alone, through faith and works with all of the power and glory going to God.

I hope this helps.
:amen:

It is all grace!

God Bless,
Michael
 
Well you are essentially parroting Luther’s teaching of OSAS which we Catholics know to be totally in error.
Just a correction. Neither Luther nor the Lutheran Church believes in OSAS. Luther believed that slavtion could be lost.🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
The link gives an insight into the Catholic view that demonstrates the difficulties within non-Catholic objections to Catholic teaching on grace, faith, and works within God’s plan. The Catholic view encompasses all of scripture and illustrates the mystery and complexity of salvation and divine providence. It is for this reason that we argue salvation by grace alone, through faith and works with all of the power and glory going to God.

I hope this helps.
This is such a nebulous idea. It can cause one much distress to think that a God who is first and foremost Love … would show favoritism and not be entirely fair with ALL mankind.

We know opportunities in the world have not been equivalent for mankind. We can/must believe that God will tailor his Judgement to fit our individual experiences in life. That is to say … God can take our unequal life situations, and provide equity in his judgement.

Those who read OT and see God as arbitrary and cruel with various peoples … must realize that Christ showed none of these qualities. We must trust Christ, who reflects the true qualities of the Trinity, … to deal fairly with all mankind thru history.

Paul talks of election and predestination … yet he presented the Gospel w/o distinction to all men. Paul was willing to be all things to all peoples … if it would enable him to have a more effective witness to that group or individual. We must believe that H.S. also presents the Love of God to all mankind with equality as well. And, if whatever reason the Gospel doesn’t reach a particular race or nation in past history times … God will fairly deal with those based on their knowledge, intentions, and how they treated their neighbors.

Ultimately, if we burn in hell … we will deserve it and probably agree with God’s verdict.
 
This is such a nebulous idea. It can cause one much distress to think that a God who is first and foremost Love … would show favoritism and not be entirely fair with ALL mankind.

We know opportunities in the world have not been equivalent for mankind. We can/must believe that God will tailor his Judgement to fit our individual experiences in life. That is to say … God can take our unequal life situations, and provide equity in his judgement.

Those who read OT and see God as arbitrary and cruel with various peoples … must realize that Christ showed none of these qualities. We must trust Christ, who reflects the true qualities of the Trinity, … to deal fairly with all mankind thru history.

Paul talks of election and predestination … yet he presented the Gospel w/o distinction to all men. Paul was willing to be all things to all peoples … if it would enable him to have a more effective witness to that group or individual. We must believe that H.S. also presents the Love of God to all mankind with equality as well. And, if whatever reason the Gospel doesn’t reach a particular race or nation in past history times … God will fairly deal with those based on their knowledge, intentions, and how they treated their neighbors.

Ultimately, if we burn in hell … we will deserve it and probably agree with God’s verdict.
All those who “burn in hell” are there because they chose to be there. I have a question. You believe that a person can lose their salvation, right? Then I have a question. Why does God take a person away after falling from grace and before repenting - which means that person will be going to hell - but takes another person while they are in a state of grace? 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
Why is this a nebulous idea when much of what you need is in your own response?

I would make a couple of statements for clarification of some of your points. Please note that the Catholic view is the biblical view and that there is nothing arbitrary or capricious in how God gives grace. God clearly desires that all men be saved. Sufficient grace is given to all, and God will judge all.

There is mystery in how God’s gifts are given and how grace works within each of us. There is mystery in how God predestines the elect. We see through a glass dimly, as Paul says, and we must not worry about those things which are beyond our human understanding. Instead, we must trust in God’s grace and mercy.

Salvation is God’s gift to us and that is what He does. The wages of sin is death, and that is what we do. This simple set of facts is pointed out by Paul in Romans 6:23. They are simple facts, but we do not fully comprehend how God’s grace comes into play nor do we comprehend the full dimension of predestination from God’s point of view.

We have not counseled God and scripture says that He works in mysterious ways.

We only need to be satisfied with His grace and mercy, and you can be confident that “God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” and that we are to “do all things without grumbling or questioning,”[Phill 2:13-14] Ours is not to fully know and understand the “how.” Ours is to receive the gift of grace and to live in it.
 
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