The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[Pax]

The typical argument presented to me concerning Judas by non-Catholic Christians asserts that Judas was not a believer. Once I demonstrate that he was a believer, they shift their position to say that he was not a “true believer,” or that he was “not a true believer in the heart unto salvation,” or that “he was never saved.” This kind of movement/shifts in the argument indicates that the argument is doctrinally driven and not scripturally based. If it were scripturally based the argument would not shift in this fashion because the scripture would be there to clearly support the original contention without modification. And please notice, I am not talking about an amplification and further explanation…I am talking about shifting the actual contention of the original argument. Moreover the subsequent shift also lacks scriptural support.

Please notice that my argument has not changed concerning Judas and that I have only offered additional scripture and explanations for further illuminating my position on the issue. I am going to give more scripture to add even more support for the original argument.

Judas was chosen as one of the original twelve and I demonstrated by scripture that he was in equal standing with the twelve in all respects and that he worshiped Jesus as the son of God.

Chronologically:

–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink.

–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.

*** Please note scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:

“…Judas Iscariot,… became a traitor.”

Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition.

Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:

–Luke 22:1-6
"Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death; for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and engaged to give him money. So he agreed, and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of the multitude.

In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to elect a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:

"And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two **thou hast chosen **to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”

Judas was chosen but he “turned aside” from that which was given him by God. Judas turned away from the gifts God gave to him through Jesus. Think about that…he turned away from the gift of salvation to go to his own place. This is exactly what each and everyone of us is “free” to do. OSAS is simply a false doctrine.

I challenge those that oppose this view to show a passage in scripture that says that Judas did not believe.

 

[BRB]

I challenge those that oppose this view to show a passage in scripture that says that Judas did not believe.

Pax…

Start a new thread on this pro-judas issue. Its off topic, but you cannot give it up … because it’s your ACE argument against OSAS.

Since you’re off topic once again … Moses’ legalites team incurs an ERR

Back on topic:

David had 4 wives, and son Solomon had 700, plus 300 concubines.

David also repeatedly told ‘white’ lies … whenever it suited his ‘just’ desires/intentions. Then the biggies, adultery and murder were committed.

Solomon set up many idols in his palace … for his foreign wives to worship. And he was punished … with short lifespan. Saul broke God’s command [about not destroying all the livestock] … and he got rejected by God for his first offense. He also took on a priestly role and performed the ‘sin sacrifice’ … and Samuel took no pity on him.

Yet, when David retained the livestock spoils from his conquests over Philistines, and perform both the sin and peace sacrifices as if a priest … God did not punish him for same violations. Nathan the prophet also gave David the benefit of doubt.

So, of these first three Kings, David got preferential treatment by the Lord and his earthly Legal Eagles. Now, the Mosaic Legal System / Commandments were the STANDARD in that era.

Why were they not inforced equally on these Kings in OT times ?

And, will they be inforced in NT times w/o same exceptions ?

 

[Pax]

Pax…

Start a new thread on this pro-judas issue. Its off topic, but you cannot give it up … because it’s your ACE argument against OSAS.

Since you’re off topic once again … Moses’ legalites team incurs an ERR

You are wrong about the issue of Judas in that it has serious implications for the topic of this thread.

I do not use this as an ace against OSAS. I have merely pursued this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion. If it cannot be refuted then say so.

Your request for me to change to a different line of argument within the thread shows the weakness of your position. It is not off topic. If you think it is off topic then I suggest that you prove it to be off topic by showing that it has no implications for the discussion and title of the thread.

If you concede the point then I will gladly move on…if you do not concede the point, I’m still willing to move on. Nevertheless, ignoring the point won’t make its implications go away or strengthen your position by even a smidge. Likewise, falsely claiming that it is off topic hurts the credibility of your position and presentations.

 

[mikeledes]

Absolutely … we must. That is our new Law of Love standard … that we must uphold, as disciples of Christ.

Can I [you] do it w/o help of H.S. ? Not a chance. We will fail most miserably if we try to w/o genuine Rebirth via H.S. That’s why Christ INSISTED we must be Reborn of H.S. … if we ever desire to see the Kingdom.

Can true Christians fail to live according to the beatitudes? What will happen if a Christian willfully violates the law of love and does not repent?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I’m trying to stay neutral … so I can keep a fair score.

Look back in my posts … I’ve always acknowledged the Beatitudes / Law of Love as our new standard of ethics.

MD and Sandman do too … we are only arguing the OT Mosaic Code of Laws is now Superceded/Perfected by Love Law in Christ. Christ told us ALL laws could be simplified into the Big Two. ‘Love Lord with all heart, soul, mind & love neighbor as self’.

Christ simplifies our lives … never complicates with burdensome laws that can’t be kept w/o inspiration of H.S. Christ is our freedom, inspiration, and life.

“No one comes to the Father, except thru the Son”. This is Paul’s clarion cry … from the WORD !! Paul the ultimate Pharisee, legalist lawyer … was set free from the lawcode that had turned him into a MURDERER of Christians.

Look at the irony of it all. The most ‘self-righteous’ of all Jews … was transformed by H.S. into our most glorious apologist saint [except for our mother Mary … right ?].

We have consistently argued that the Law of Christ or the Law of Love has perfected and superseded the Mosaic Law. The Law of Love means that one will not murder, commit adultery, steal, etc., thereby fulfilling the moral pronciples expressed in the Decalogue. And by this Law of Love, this Love of Liberty, we shall be judged:

James 2:12-13

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

The faith that saves is the faith that has been united to love, making it a living faith. Faith is not inseparable from love.

1 Corinthians 13:2

**and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. **

2 Peter 1:5-9

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Love makes itself manifest in the life of a Christian through his or her conduct:

2 John 5-6

5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 3:17

17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Love leads to a life fruiful in good works. But as 2 Peter 1:8 indicates, a Christian can truly have faith and be “cleansed from their old sins” and still lack the qualities that lead to fruitfulness:

John 15:1-2

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

What will happen to the barren Christian?

For a Catholic, a mortal sin is a grievous sin against love. When faith is severed from love, it becomes a dead faith.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

Pax…

David had 4 wives, and son Solomon had 700, plus 300 concubines.

David also repeatedly told ‘white’ lies … whenever it suited his ‘just’ desires/intentions. Then the biggies, adultery and murder were committed.

Solomon set up many idols in his palace … for his foreign wives to worship. And he was punished … with short lifespan. Saul broke God’s command [about not destroying all the livestock] … and he got rejected by God for his first offense. He also took on a priestly role and performed the ‘sin sacrifice’ … and Samuel took no pity on him.

Yet, when David retained the livestock spoils from his conquests over Philistines, and perform both the sin and peace sacrifices as if a priest … God did not punish him for same violations. Nathan the prophet also gave David the benefit of doubt.

So, of these first three Kings, David got preferential treatment by the Lord and his earthly Legal Eagles. Now, the Mosaic Legal System / Commandments were the STANDARD in that era.

Why were they not inforced equally on these Kings in OT times ?

And, will they be inforced in NT times w/o same exceptions ?

You are making the same mistake over and over again. We have told you numerous times that we are not saved by the Mosaic Law and neither was David or any other OT figure. Everyone from both the old and new covenants is saved by Jesus.

You are attempting to paint us as legalists, and this simply will not fly. If you think that David or any other person of the OT that committed grievous sins such as murder would be saved without repentence then you do not have a grasp of the OT scriptures. Try reading Psalm 51 where David asks for God’s mercy and forgiveness.

I will attempt one last time to explain the relationship issue that is crucial to understanding why we cannot engage in sinfulness and expect to be saved. This explanation is something that we partially share with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters, but it is something that is not well articulated or sometines understood on their part.

Catholics do not believe that we are saved by keeping the ten commandments. Please lock that into your consciousness before we proceed.

We are saved by the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. He is the redeemer and we are the redeemed.

God gives us grace to believe and to thus receive the application and benefit of that redemptive work of Jesus as a free gift.

It is by this that we come into the right relationship with God through grace by faith. In other words we become “justified.” Please lock that into your consciousness before we proceed.

We are at that point in time a "new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which the Father prepared beforehand*

We are not a new creation in Christ Jesus for breaking the ten commandments or for any form of evil.

We are now in a family relationship with God as “Abba” Father. Jesus is our brother. The Holy Spirit dwells within us. Sin and God are not compatible with one another.

The law and the decalogue point out sin but have no saving power.

Grace has power and that is why Phillippians 2:12-13 says:

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Paul likewise tells us in Romans “…that we are to be conformed to the image of His Son[Jesus]”

Sin is not the work of God within us, and is not the will and work for the good pleasure of God. Sin does not conform us to the image of Jesus. God’s grace saves us and changes us.

The “royal law” per James, and the “law of Christ” per Paul, are one in the same thing. They have to do with grace and being members of the family of God. They have to do with “being righteous” The apostle John puts it this way:

1 John 3:7
“Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.”

John doesn’t tell us to break the ten commandments or to sin. Instead, he tells not to sin[see all of 1 Jn 3] Likewise, Paul and James don’t tell us to break the ten commandments either. Instead, they tell us that as Christians living in the Spirit that we actually uphold the law. They say this because loving God and neighbor fulfill the law and righteousness which is the “royal law” and the “law of Christ.”

It isn’t the letter of the law. It isn’t legalistic. It’s all about living in the Spirit, by way of the Spirit, living in Christ, living by grace, doing the works of the Father by way of grace in our new creation in Christ Jesus. Sin is incompatible with this life in Christ.

Legalism is dead but so is our life in sin. It is in this last point, that we actually uphold the law by faith in Jesus Christ.

The wages of sin is still death[Rom 6:23]. We are finished with sin[Rom 6:2] We are no longer enslaved to sin; we are freed from it. We are freed from breaking the decalogue. We live to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and we do this as adopted sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters in Christ by way of grace.

It is all about relationship. In our family relationship as Christians we cannot be members of the holy household if we live a life of sin. Fornication, murder, thievery and the like are banished and cannot be part of our lives. The prodigal son left the Father’s household in order to live a life of dissipation in the flesh. He could not live that life within the household of grace. He had to turn from the life in the flesh and return to the household in repentence.

That is why James says, “My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”[James 5:19-20]

That is also why Jesus says, “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”[Luke 15:7]

This joy in heaven is in keeping with the feast offered by the father for the prodigal son “who was dead but is now alive.”*

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Pax pretty much summed it up.

The Law is not to be seen as a triathlon which God wanted us to complete, except for the fact we all had broken legs so only Christ was able to complete it for us. Instead, the Law is to be seen as a treasure map*, giving us clues pointing to Christ. Once the treasure is found, we live by Christ’s teachings and principles from there on.
Anyone saved in the OT times was, by faith, living according Christ’s principles, though they were not as enlightened as we are today (Heb 11:13-16).

*St Augustine famously said, The Old Testament is revealed in the New, and the New is hidden in the Old.

 

[Philthy]

Awesome Pax!

 

[Philthy]

While we’re not holding our breath waiting for a rebuttal to Pax’s post I thought I’d ask once more what I asked on the 1st page of this thread:
Philthy from page 1:

If claiming our salvation isnt jeopardized but that our rewards are - and that compromise turns out to be a very serious, consequential and eternal one - then what is the point of making the distinction?Why not simply affirm the importance of obedience to the 10C’s? **Will we be perfectly happy with a salvation that is devoid of any rewards? **

 

[BRB]

Can true Christians fail to live according to the beatitudes? What will happen if a Christian willfully violates the law of love and does not repent?

God Bless,
Michael

The definition of apostasy: willingly showing disrespect toward God, w/o contrition of heart and desire to repent of errs.

That is like spitting on both God and his Law of Love … and refusing the H.S. by failing to confess.

Would a True Believer do this ? NO.
Only someone with a ‘theoretical’ knowledge of God … who had never tasted of the Lord’s love via H.S.

A ‘born again’ child of God will always return to the Lord after sinning … with contrition and desire to have fellowship with Lord restored. These are the OSAS True Belivers. Joined to Lord in unity … never to be ‘permanently’ separated. Christ knows his own [per Gospel of John] … and will always maintain his flock.

Not to start this into an OSAS thread … just in answer to your question

 

[BRB]

Catholics do not believe that we are saved by keeping the ten commandments.

We are saved by the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. He is the redeemer and we are the redeemed.

God gives us grace to believe and to thus receive the application and benefit of that redemptive work of Jesus as a free gift.

It is by this that we come into the right relationship with God through grace by faith. In other words we become “justified.”

We are at that point in time a "new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which the Father prepared beforehand*

We are now in a family relationship with God as “Abba” Father. Jesus is our brother. The Holy Spirit dwells within us. Sin and God are not compatible with one another.

The law and the decalogue point out sin but have no saving power.

this because loving God and neighbor fulfill the law and righteousness which is the “royal law” and the “law of Christ.”

It is all about relationship. In our family relationship as Christians we cannot be members of the holy household if we live a life of sin. Fornication, murder, thievery and the like are banished and cannot be part of our lives. The prodigal son left the Father’s household in order to live a life of dissipation in the flesh. He could not live that life within the household of grace. He had to turn from the life in the flesh and return to the household in repentence.

That is why James says, “My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”[James 5:19-20]

That is also why Jesus says, “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”[Luke 15:7]

This joy in heaven is in keeping with the feast offered by the father for the prodigal son “who was dead but is now alive.”*

Pax … my brother You have finally expressed your theology correctly. Welcome to Paul’s Team

 

[CentralFLJames]

The definition of apostasy: willingly showing disrespect toward God, w/o contrition of heart and desire to repent of errs.

That is like spitting on both God and his Law of Love … and refusing the H.S. by failing to confess.

Would a True Believer do this ? NO.
Only someone with a ‘theoretical’ knowledge of God … who had never tasted of the Lord’s love via H.S.

A ‘born again’ child of God will always return to the Lord after sinning … with contrition and desire to have fellowship with Lord restored. These are the OSAS True Belivers. Joined to Lord in unity … never to be ‘permanently’ separated. Christ knows his own [per Gospel of John] … and will always maintain his flock.

Not to start this into an OSAS thread … just in answer to your question

I agree. We Catholics are still waiting for Protestants and other non-Catholics to repent from their disdain and disrespect of Christ’s authority, and come back to the Catholic Church. A great case for a theoretical knowledge of God is somone who reads their bible and relies on their own self-teaching to “get it right” and ends up missing the “forest for the trees”.

You have one theological error though. There is no earthly evidence that a “born-again” person will return to God since being born-again is a life long practice that STARTS at baptism and is completed at death. We never see this and know for certain until a person passes into the Kingdom at death.

At death those who are still in Christ are complete. It is these who are fully born-again and made full permanent members of His Kingdom. Think life-long metamorphosis (via God’s tranforming grace through the sacraments) and butterflies.

James

 

[BRB]

Catholics are still waiting for Protestants and other non-Catholics to repent from their disdain and disrespect of Christ’s authority, and come back to the Catholic Church.

You may have to wait awhile more … but, this too [ecumenical reunion of all Christians] is assured.

Its all covered in Typology in OT. I’ve been researching this and will present the sacred scriptures to back this up … probably later today. Although it may take a 2 Part Thread to get it all in.

The authority of Peter, the Papacy, the Church, and certitude of Ecumenical reunity is assured to us in OT Typology.

I look forward to your [and Pax’s] critical review of this upcoming thread.

 

[BRB]

being born-again is a life long practice that STARTS at baptism and is completed at death.

For cradle Catholics … this seems to be their ‘experience’.

However, for many non-catholics … they undergo ‘adult’ rebirths, not unlike Paul’s. Epiphany experiences, that sear their souls with certain knowledge of God and their adoptions.

God works in many ways to accomplish his ends. His understanding and purposes cannot fully be known. But, Typology give proofs of former events and points up things to come.

 

[mikeledes]

The definition of apostasy: willingly showing disrespect toward God, w/o contrition of heart and desire to repent of errs.

That is like spitting on both God and his Law of Love … and refusing the H.S. by failing to confess.

Would a True Believer do this ? NO.
Only someone with a ‘theoretical’ knowledge of God … who had never tasted of the Lord’s love via H.S.

A ‘born again’ child of God will always return to the Lord after sinning … with contrition and desire to have fellowship with Lord restored. These are the OSAS True Belivers. Joined to Lord in unity … never to be ‘permanently’ separated. Christ knows his own [per Gospel of John] … and will always maintain his flock.

Not to start this into an OSAS thread … just in answer to your question

Okay, so you believe that a person who has genuine fait, he can never fall away?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[CentralFLJames]

For cradle Catholics … this seems to be their ‘experience’.

However, for many non-catholics … they undergo ‘adult’ rebirths, not unlike Paul’s. Epiphany experiences, that sear their souls with certain knowledge of God and their adoptions.

God works in many ways to accomplish his ends. His understanding and purposes cannot fully be known. But, Typology give proofs of former events and points up things to come.

Agree with the analogy with Paul. But recollect that after Paul’s conversion he came to Peter and the others and sought their acceptance and deferred to Peter’s authority and became “accepted” into The Catholic Church. Paul was not a lone ranger running around without authority to teach and convert but a full bishop of The Catholic Church.

James

 

[moondweller]

Oh you are doin’ your dance again. We have already established that God saves.

I have, but you haven’t. I’ll ask again, does God save by (sovereign) grace or do you save yourself?

The only question is whether we can do anything to access grace or reject it.

And here’s the difference between Biblical soteriology and Catholic theology. Biblical soteriology states emphatically that God Himself saves the sinner, perfectly and completely, BY His GRACE, at the time of belief in Christ. Catholicism, however, rejects this and presents instead a sacerdotal/sacramental system by which it claims men “access” grace. “Grace,” then, being not the Divine means by which God saves a sinner, but a Divine commodity dispensed through a religious system.

IF not, then why even have a gospel? God will save or he wont irrespective of anything we do. We all agree that grace is God’s.

Define “a gospel.” Define “grace.” Define “God will save.”

You confuse me with your “salvation is by grace through faith” mantra.

It’s not a “mantra,” it’s basic, Pauline soteriology. It confuses you because it completely opposes your sacerdotal/sacramental system of salvation.

The question remains, what is faith?

Yes, for you it will always remain a question.

Is it “God’s” or is it ours or is it both?

“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” (Acts 16:31). To whom was this addressed? God or man? Who was required to believe? Who were they to “believe in” in order to be saved?

If it is “God’s” like grace is, then why even bother pointing out that it is through faith?

God saves man by His sovereign grace through (man’s) faith (in Christ), says Paul. Catholicism denies this and instead presents a system by which one is to access “graces” (a Divine commodity) in hopes to achieve salvation.

You havent moved an inch on the very practical question that the Jews asked Peter on the day of Pentecost: “What must we do (to be saved)?” Peters answer was not “Do nothing. Salvation is by grace through faith alone” No, he pointed things for them to do to “save themselves” and recieve the gift of the HS.

What they did, Phil, is turn (repent) from their unbelief to belief in the One whom they’d previously rejected and “nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men” (Acts 2:23).

Of course, but on what basis does God dispense his Grace?

You reason according to your religious system. God doesn’t “dispense” His grace, He “saves BY grace” those who believe His testimony concerning the Person and work of His Son.

It seems like such a simple question.

It’s an erroneous question. What you stumble over is the simplicity of divine grace itself. The simplicity of Divine salvation.

Is it or is it not on the basis of faith? And if it is on the basis of faith, which is not grace, and which involves the cooperation of the human will enlightened by the holy Spirit, then we do participate in our salvation.

No. God is the One who sovereignly saves by grace through faith. Man only believes unto salvation, but it’s God who saves.

It doesnt mean we arent still entirely dependent upon God to be saved, but it does mean that we can choose to reject salvation.

One does not accept or reject salvation. One either believes or does not believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. On the basis of this faith, alone, God saves by grace.John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”…says Jesus.

Can the religious man be faithless? Can the religious remain in darkness? Most certainly. God saves by grace through faith alone.

There’s nothing you need to say. It is by grace that we come to accept the things of the Spirit of God. We both agree on that. You seem to be confused on the issue of whether a spiritually enlightened person can, like the seed choked by the world, choose to reject the things of the Spirit of God when they become difficult to accept. If man can, then man can reject salvation through a decision he makes. If he can reject, he can also accept. Accepting requires the grace of God, but is not automatically accomplished apart from one’s will to accept or reject that grace.

Men are not required to accept or reject salvation or grace. The gospel message concerns a Person. Men are saved by grace through faith in Him alone. It is God who sovereignly saves the one who believes in Christ and what He alone has done on our behalf: "For by grace you have been saved through faith…not of yourselves…, gift of God…, not as a result of works"Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They said,

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."This is exactly what those Jews, born under the Law, in Acts chapter two did also. The Law (including the Decalogue) was to lead them to Christ that they may be “justified BY FAITH” (Gal. 3:24).

The question remains, what is faith?

The question is: Is the object of the faith by which those who "have been saved by grace" a “what” or a “Who?” A system or a Savior? Law or grace?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have, but you haven’t. I’ll ask again, does God save by (sovereign) grace or do you save yourself?And here’s the difference between Biblical soteriology and Catholic theology. Biblical soteriology states emphatically that God Himself saves the sinner, perfectly and completely, BY His GRACE, at the time of belief in Christ. Catholicism, however, rejects this and presents instead a sacerdotal/sacramental system by which it claims men “access” grace. “Grace,” then, being not the Divine means by which God saves a sinner, but a Divine commodity dispensed through a religious system.Define “a gospel.” Define “grace.” Define "God will save."It’s not a “mantra,” it’s basic, Pauline soteriology. It confuses you because it completely opposes your sacerdotal/sacramental system of salvation.Yes, for you it will always remain a question.“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” (Acts 16:31). To whom was this addressed? God or man? Who was required to believe? Who were they to “believe in” in order to be saved?God saves man by His sovereign grace through (man’s) faith (in Christ), says Paul. Catholicism denies this and instead presents a system by which one is to access “graces” (a Divine commodity) in hopes to achieve salvation.What they did, Phil, is turn (repent) from their unbelief to belief in the One whom they’d previously rejected and “nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men” (Acts 2:23).You reason according to your religious system. God doesn’t “dispense” His grace, He “saves BY grace” those who believe His testimony concerning the Person and work of His Son.It’s an erroneous question. What you stumble over is the simplicity of divine grace itself. The simplicity of Divine salvation.No. God is the One who sovereignly saves by grace through faith. Man only believes unto salvation, but it’s God who saves.One does not accept or reject salvation. One either believes or does not believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. On the basis of this faith, alone, God saves by grace.John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”…says Jesus.

Can the religious man be faithless? Can the religious remain in darkness? Most certainly. God saves by grace through faith alone.Men are not required to accept or reject salvation or grace. The gospel message concerns a Person. Men are saved by grace through faith in Him alone. It is God who sovereignly saves the one who believes in Christ and what He alone has done on our behalf: "For by grace you have been saved through faith…not of yourselves…, gift of God…, not as a result of works"Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They said,

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."This is exactly what those Jews, born under the Law, in Acts chapter two did also. The Law (including the Decalogue) was to lead them to Christ that they may be “justified BY FAITH” (Gal. 3:24).The question is: Is the object of the faith by which those who “have been saved by grace” a “what” or a “Who?” A system or a Savior? Law or grace?

I have never heard so much obfuscation and indirection and spin in my entire life. In MD’s private theology on one had God “does it all.” Then a breath later “God does it all” through man’s faith. HELLO??? Don’t you see cooperation in there anywhere? Is “faith” and “belief” just God pushing buttons in a mindless robot ? Does God just decide I’ll make “this one is mine”, presses button A - “you now believe” and the presses button B - “you now have faith”? Come on get real. How does a consistent and perfect God choose generic robot A from generic robot Z? Paleeeezzzze…

Good Lord, please be intellectually honest and stop the tortured “every man his own church” secularist spaghetti logic. You make such a simple system of grace, where we Catholic cooperate with God and learn to walk hand and hand with Him sound so ridiculous. The sacraments are there to help us when we fall - not to confound us.

Yes Paul has it right - God saves man by His sovereign grace through (man’s) faith (in Christ), says Paul. Who can’t you see faith as an essential part of a full spectrum of cooperative work with God? The bible does not teach what you are spewing here. What you are spewing is a new teaching of man, never before seen among true Christians until somone infected the planet with this nonsense about 500 years ago. The consistent 2000 year old apostolic teaching makes it clear that you are not teaching the same thing that the apostles taught and are confusing not only yourself but others too. Why is that?

James

 

[Always_For_Him]

You may have to wait awhile more … but, this too [ecumenical reunion of all Christians] is assured.

Its all covered in Typology in OT. I’ve been researching this and will present the sacred scriptures to back this up … probably later today. Although it may take a 2 Part Thread to get it all in.

The authority of Peter, the Papacy, the Church, and certitude of Ecumenical reunity is assured to us in OT Typology.

I look forward to your [and Pax’s] critical review of this upcoming thread.

No one understands Typology in the OT better than the Catholic Church. We have understood the different Typologies and the meanings from early on. The Catholic Church is the original teachers of Typology and of Jesus’ Deposit of Faith.

 

[Pax]

Pax … my brother You have finally expressed your theology correctly. Welcome to Paul’s Team

I find this to be a rather odd admission at this point in time. Here is a sample of what I wrote on the first thread in post #245 which is in the very same vein as the post which you now praise. It says:

"Works done in the system of the OT law and works done in the gentile systems of belief are of no value. They are based on the individual and the individual’s own achievement and are to be understood in terms of a wage.

Works done in the Christian system of grace are of value. These works come from God’s work of grace within us. We are as Eph 2:10 says, “created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand.” In grace we are adopted sons and daughters and are members of the household.

The difference between the Christian system of grace and that of the old law as well as that of the gentile systems is one of “relationship.” In the old law and gentile systems the works are of no value because the relationship is that of man as a wage earner before God. There is no relationship of God as Father. Under grace we cry “Abba” Father. Under the system of grace everything is by way of mercy and God’s gifts. Under grace our works have value because they are from the Father and they give glory and honor to God.

As Christians we are under the law of Christ. As Christians we are led by the Spirit. As Christians we live by the Spirit. The Christian system of faith and works is completely different from the OT system of the law and the gentile systems of works. Paul clearly states that these latter two systems do not justify or save us. Paul never discounts the role of works within the Christian system of grace. Instead, Paul clearly states the necessity of Christian love and obedience under grace."

On that same thread my post #819 says:

They have tried to paint our position and arguments as “legalistic.” Frankly, we should not allow the arguments to evolve along these lines simply because it isn’t true.

There is a sense in which it is correct to say that the New Covenant did away with all of the OT law including the ten commandments. The difficulty is defining all of this correctly. The new covenant speaks of the “Law of Christ.” Likewise, the NT condemns “lawlessness” [see 2 Thess chp 2, 1 Tim 1:9-11, 2 Peter 3:17, and 1 John chp 3, and others].

It has been mentioned before but it bears repeating. The OT Mosaic and Levitical Laws as well as the gentile pagan systems are legalistic works righteousness systems. They do not justify the ungodly.

The Christian system of grace, faith and works is not legalistic or works righteousness. The Christian system differs from the other two in two important ways. The Jewish system and gentile systems view the relationship of God and man as an employer and employee. The legalistic system of works under these systems are that of a wage.

The Christian system is not that of an employer/employee relationship with a wage. The Christian system is a family. The relationship of God and man is one of adoption. We become brothers and sisters in Christ, we are born again, we are placed in a state of friendship with God, and become members of His household. This is all by grace and God’s gracious gifts in justification. There is no earning it, and there is no wage.

Catholics articulate these truths and believe them. It is simply wrong for non-Catholics to claim that our beliefs vary from this or that they are legalistic.

It is time for Sandusky and moondweller to properly articulate why our view of Eph 2:10 is incorrect. So far much has been said, but our view of grace, and being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which the Father prepared in advance of our justification that we should walk in them, have been shown to be perfectly congruent to scripture. Our position must be viewed, examined, and critiqued in terms of a family relationship with God.

In other words, as members of the household that are in a loving relationship with the Father and led by the Spirit, how is it that we are not obliged by our love and the relationship to be Christ like? The Father’s purpose is to conform us to the image of his son. How is it that as members of the divine family and thus heirs can anything that we say about works be classified as a wage or legalistic?

In order to properly argue against the Catholic position you must do so within that framework. If you do otherwise you merely attack a strawman. As members of the household the entire dynamic and connection between grace, faith, and works is completely changed. It is for this reason that Paul says that “for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”[Romans 14:3]

Have you been following all that we have stated over the course of our discussions?