After all of the proof that has been rendered to the contrary, your statement is beginning to sound like nothing more than an empty but repeated denial that is utterly without substance because you have not refuted the scriptures given to you. Your statements have no credibility on this issue.Nowhere is it recorded that God justified Abraham other than Gen. 15:6. All of Paul’s theology is based on it.
How so?You have just utterly destroyed your doctrine of salvation by “faith alone.”
Faith is part of the OT law and Jesus us tells us so in Matthew 23:23 when he says:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”
That should be read, “…justice and mercy and faithfulness;…”Your doctrines and statements are self contradictory.
How so?That should be read, “…justice and mercy and faithfulness;…”
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You don’t know what you are talking about, and you cannot see the obvious faults in your logic. Changing the rendering of the word to your liking doesn’t cut it.
I take all of what Paul writes seriously. The difference is that I take all of what Paul says along with all of the rest of scripture.Really Pax, you need to take Paul seriously where he states:Gal 3:22-26 “But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed (that’s faith in Christ/Messiah: His Person and work). Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith (that would be "the faith” that is now revealed apart from law). But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.And consider where he says:Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."And therefore, consequently, condemned by them (see 2 Cor. 3:6-9).
I didn’t say my view but what is revealed ONLY in Gen. 15:6:Rom 4:1-3 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."You see, Paul cites only this ONE verse in Gen. 15:6 where God credited Abraham’s faith to him as righteousness. And that faith was in a particular context: Faith in Him.Where in scripture does it state that all of Paul’s theology is based on your errant view?
When did I ever say that the law is of faith? You bring things like this up as if it has an application against our position when it simply does not. Read all of my posts over again and educate yourself on what I have presented. Then you can argue against what I am really saying rather than something that you make up.[/indent]And consider where he says:Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."And therefore, consequently, condemned by them (see 2 Cor. 3:6-9).
I didn’t say my view but what is revealed ONLY in Gen. 15:6:.
This is a completely false statement! It makes salvation contingent upon the will of man and his promise to God to perform. But most tragic of all, your statement nullifies the cross, the unique work of Christ by which God saves the believer strictly “by grace through faith” in Christ alone.Then one cannot be truly saved, BRB, until he has fulfilled the “Covenant.” Please show me (in Scripture) this alleged “covenant” men make with Christ.Please show me where this “adoption into His Kingdom,” based on a covenant men make with Christ, is taught.
Through faith in Christ, there is the believer’s “adoption as sons” (being now in Christ), but I know nothing of your “adoption into His Kingdom.” The believer is transferred into the kingdom of His beloved Son "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:13-14).
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Re: OT Covenants Re: NT Covenants, Adoption,Broker, Works, & Assurance NT scriptures on: Kingdom & 'Work'manshipTrue believers, the redeemed, cannot go to hell. Many “Protestants” and “Catholics” will experience hell. However, all true believers are part of the first resurrection and the “second death” (the “Lake of Fire”) has no power over them (Rev. 20:6)It really sounds to me based on this conversation that Protestants don’t believe they can go to hell.
That’s right! The penalty for our sins was laid on the Substitute. What keeps men out of heaven is not sins, but unbelief. Consequently, it’s also what puts them in hell. Salvation is not a sin issue (Christ died for them - ALL of them). It’s a faith issue.How can you go to hell if you are already saved by Jesus dying on the cross?
Since salvation is a faith issue, and one believes the gospel message, then nothing can separate him from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:38-39)Rom 8:31-34 "What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."This is salvation “by grace through faith, …the gift of God, …not as a result of works.” This is salvation according to the Apostle Paul and the N.T. writers.If you can’t do anything to be separated from Christ because you believe, have faith and he died on the cross for our sins, then how can you go to hell?
Although you need to understand better your Covenantal ties and need for Oath taking to Christ …True believers, the redeemed, cannot go to hell. Many “Protestants” and “Catholics” will experience hell. However, all true believers are part of the first resurrection and the “second death” (the “Lake of Fire”) has no power over them (Rev. 20:6).
God saves based on one’s “faith,” not one’s "oath."Matt 5:34 “But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,”Although you need to understand better your Covenantal ties and need for Oath taking to Christ …
Then by definition you do not agree with the doctrine of eternal security.I do think you are ‘dead on’ with regards to OSAS. Provided we don’t commit Apostasy … which scriptures clearly teach.
And of course, once again your view does not agree with Paul when he says:…
… What keeps men out of heaven is not sins, but unbelief. Consequently, it’s also what puts them in hell. Salvation is not a sin issue (Christ died for them - ALL of them). It’s a faith issue.Since salvation is a faith issue, and one believes the gospel message, then nothing can separate him from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:38-39).
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No… apostasy refers to someone that believed but has since turned from that belief. Look it up in a dictionary for crying out loud.God saves based on one’s “faith,” not one’s "oath."Matt 5:34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,"Then by definition you do not agree with the doctrine of eternal security.
Apostasy is a product of unbelief, not belief. It develops from the introduction of leaven (error) into the faith. “Error begets error” and like leaven permeates the whole piece of dough, so does error spread until you have a “different gospel.” Invariably it is a “gospel” of works (like taking an “oath” of lifelong discipleship). Faith and grace are gone. The words remain but without substance.
But the context is fruit bearing, not salvation. He was speaking to those who were already His. The Apostles were being told that in order to bear fruit in their coming ministry, they needed to abide (metaphorically) in the Vine.This makes no sense when one takes into consideration what the Greek word “meno” actually means. “Meno” means to continue, stay, or remain in a state, condition, or location.
Life is the power in the Vine by which the branch produces fruit.The Vine is not only this source of power, it is the source of life.
That’s right. That’s why He presents the principle of abiding in Him. Not a church, not a program, not a religious system, or any person or persons, but Him alone. Only He has the life to produce fruit. It is Christ who would do His work through them. The church is the “body of Christ,” not the “head.”A branch that is cut off from the Vine does not bear fruit, but also does not remain alive. It dries up/ dies. John 15:6 says:
It makes no clear reference to that at all. If that’s what Jesus was saying then salvation is not "by grace through faith, but on fruit bearing (works). And He would contradict what He stated earlier regarding belief in Him, salvation and eternal life:John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.** He who believes in Him is not judged**; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”It is clear that when Jesus says that those who do not abide in Him are cast into the fire and burned, it is a reference to eternal damnation.
Your implying that Jesus meant faith alone and if that is what Jesus was saying then he would be contradicting himself."It makes no clear reference to that at all. If that’s what Jesus was saying then salvation is not "by grace through faith, but on fruit bearing (works). And He would contradict what He stated earlier regarding belief in Him, salvation and eternal life:John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.** He who believes** in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
I know how it is defined now in the English language, however, the Greek word is apostasia. Can you show me where, Biblically, this term is used to describe a once believer who has lost his salvation by falling out of faith?No… apostasy refers to someone that believed but has since turned from that belief. Look it up in a dictionary for crying out loud. Bamford’s Bible Dictionary( a protestant source) defines apostasy this way:
The public abandoning of your faith for another.
You don’t think that the Father’s will is that men believe in the Son? You’ll notice that those in that passage you reference claimed to do all sorts of works, yet Jesus says He never knew them. They demanded entrance into the Kingdom based on their works. It wasn’t going to happen. What they lacked was belief in Him. By this I don’t mean belief in His existence; they believed in that, calling Him “Lord.” But even I’ve met many unbelievers who refer to Jesus as “the Lord.” After all, we’ve had 2000 years of Christianity for that kind of conditioning.Your implying that Jesus meant faith alone and if that is what Jesus was saying then he would be contradicting himself
(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the **one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” **
definition of pisteuoPisteuo: "to believe, also to be persuaded of, and hence, to place confindence in, to trust, signifies, in this sense the word, reliance upon, not mere credence.
Yes. could this word mean more than you believe?Even the translation you’re using translates “pisteuo” as “believe.”
Does that mean: to willfully believe is a state of obedience?The translation of “apistousin” is what is in question. Here’s how the NASB translates it:1 Pet 2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe (pisteuousin); but for those who disbelieve (apeithousin)…,"The latter means to wilfully disbelieve. To wilfully disbelieve is a state of disobedience.
and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. (1 Pet 2:8)The proposition of the gospel message is to believe in the Lord Jesus. 1 Pet. 2:7 is to be understood in the context of Christ’s own words:John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.