The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[steve_b]

You’re extrapolating something out of the passage that is not there.

Re: Jn 15, that Mikeledes was referring to, unproductive banches were thrown away into the fire which was a distructive fire.

Re: abide in me vs not abide in me, is pretty obvious what the conclusion is.
moon:

In 1 Cor. 3:10-15 Paul teaches that the Christian worker has to, in the future, stand before the judgment seat of Christ to have his works evaluated. There the words “fire” and “burned up” are also figuratively used to describe that judgment, and they do not at all refer to eternal damnation of the Christian worker.

Don’t read more into a metaphor than what is there. And certainly don’t build contradictory doctrines on a metaphor.

Paul isn’t talking to a bunch of pagans here. And he clearly distinguishes that the fire he is talking about is a purifying fire, a purgative fire, not a distructive fire except for the impurities it burns away… It’s not the same fire talked about above in the passage from John

Paul clearly says in 1 cor 3: this particular soul would suffer loss but would be saved through this fire. This process happens after death and before a soul enters heaven. In this case Paul says Only the impurities are destroyed. This is not a damning fire for THIS soul. That’s not the case for souls that ARE damned.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes. But Jesus in this context is not instructing the believer to abide in Him. This is not volitional. Your problem with interpreting Scripture, Pax, is you often fail to consider the context.

Okay, so let me get this straight. John 6:56

56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

… is not volitional, despite the fact that the same “abide” - meno in Greek - used in this verse is the same word used in John 15. So is it “positional?”

Up to now, you have argued that abiding is “totally” volitional:

The phrase, “abide in Me” is totally volitional. .

“Abide in Me” is NOT positional doctrine.

. The believer is now, positionally “in Christ” and seated with Him in the heavenly (Col. 3:1-3; Eph. 2:6), but he is to volitionally “abide” in Christ during his walk on earth, in order to “bear fruit.”

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

You’re right, moondweller. John 6:56 is not intructing believers to abide in Him. It’s instructing them on how to abide, on what abiding involves. So when his disciples are later commanded to abide - because “abide” in John 15 is in the imperative mode - they knew what to do. And what abiding entails is further developed in:

1 John 3:24

**24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us **

1 John 2:24

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

The promise of the consummation of the spiritual life Christians currently enjoy is made to those who abide in Him through faith and love. That’s why Jesus said:

John 8:51

**“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” **

And Jesus Himself define’s what keeping His word means:

John 14:21,23

**21"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. **

James 2:5 also states:

5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

To whom is the heavenly kingdom promised? To those who love Him. That’s why Paul says in Galatians 5:6

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

When faith works through love, you abide in Him and hence bear fruit. Why? Because love necessarily results in fruit. In fact, the Bible attributes good works primarily to love, not to faith:

2 John 6

6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Love must express itself in fruitfulness, in good works. If it does not, then that love poured into your heart through the Spirit will not remain, will not continue to be present:

1 John 3:17-18

**17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. **

And a faith that is divorced from love leads to fruitlessness:

2 Peter 1:5-9

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

1 Corinthians 13:2

…and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

When faith works through love it leads to fruitfulness and ends in the promised consummation of that spiritual life Christians enjoy. When it does not, one ceases to abide in Him and the only end is death - withered, gathered, cast into the fire, and burned:

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That’s why James 2:14 states:

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

And that’s why Catholics believe that the faith that ultimately saves is fides caritate formata, or faith formed by love, united to love.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[steve_b]

If we FULLY claim to obey the 10 Commandments … what does that make us ?

Righteous, holy, good, just, faithful, acceptable to God, qualified to enjoy eternity, liars … or something else ?

Clearly it doesn’t make us good in God’s eyes. It appears the rich young ruler [Mark 10:17-22] did an admirable job of keeping the laws … yet Christ told him that God alone is Good.

For us to think we can ever be good enough to please God with our lawkeeping is hopeless. Christ told him he lacked only ONE essential thing. We must give up all human bonds to this world … and bond to Christ in faithful discipleship.

Only when we are bonded to the Goodness of Christ … are we viewed as Good by God the Father, and acceptible as holy & fit for his Kingdom.

Keeping the Commandments will never get us to eternal life. Keeping Christ and being OBEDIENT to his ‘Goodness’ will enable us to overcome and see the Kingdom.

It’s not either/or but both (keeping the commandments AND obeying all that Christ taught us)

 

[sandusky]

When the Bible uses the phrase “in Christ” - or variants like in Him, in the Son, or in Me - in reference to a person, it is always used in a soteriological sense. To say a person is “in Christ” is to say that person has genuine faith and has been justified. No false professor can ever be in Christ because no false professor has genuine faith.

That’s what I figured.

I’ll look in from time to time and check for that support. :tiphat:

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

Notice how Sandusky isnt backing you up on this ludicrous claim of yours?

I hold the same position as moondweller, Philthy; however, I’m losing interest speaking to
deaf ears.

 

[BRB]

Notice he places the sacraments on an experiential level only. But “gratuitous justification by faith” he presents as something that happened “once” and the believer was “washed,” “sanctified,” and “justified.”

He presses that at the heart of Paul’s teaching of “gratuitous justification by faith” is the Person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ, through whom this “gratuitious justification” is bestowed:Christ is the heart of the message, even before grace and faith. After having presented, in the preceding two and a half chapters of the Letter to the Romans, all of humanity in its universal state of sin and perdition (“all sinned and are deprived of the glory of God”), the Apostle has the incredible courage to proclaim that this situation has changed radically for all, Jews and Greeks, “in virtue of the redemption in Christ Jesus,” “through the obedience of one man” ([cf.] Romans 3:24; 5:19).

The affirmation that this salvation is received by faith, and not for works, is present in the text and it was perhaps the most urgent to clarify in the time of Luther.I think Fr. Cantalamessa understood both Paul and Luther. He certainly understood what Paul meant when he wrote about “forgetting the past” in respect to works and salvation in Phil. 3.:“Forgetting the past.” What “past”? That of the Pharisee, of what he had said before? No, the past of the apostle, in the Church!

The Apostle warned confusedly of the mortal danger of putting between himself and Christ “his own righteousness” derived from works – this time the works done by Christ – and he reacted vigorously. “I do not believe,” he said, “that I have reached perfection.” St. Francis of Assisi, in a similar situation, cut short any temptation of self-complacency, saying: “We begin, brothers, to serve the Lord, because until now we have done little or nothing.”[8]

This is the most necessary conversion for those that have followed Christ and have lived serving him in the Church. A conversion altogether special, which does not consist in abandoning evil, but rather, in a certain sense, in abandoning the good! That is, by detaching oneself from all that you have done, repeating to yourself, according to the suggestion of Christ: “We are useless servants; we have done only our duty” (Luke 17:10). And not even, perhaps, the good we should do!He brings his point about “gratuitous justification by faith” home with this bit of folklore:A beautiful Christmas story makes us want to arrive to the Nativity, with a heart that is poor and empty of everything. Among the shepherds who presented themselves on Christmas night to adore the Child, there was one so poor that he didn’t have anything to offer and he was very much ashamed. Upon arriving to the cave, the shepherds fought among themselves to offer their gifts. Mary didn’t know how to receive all of them, for she had the Child in her arms. So, seeing the poor shepherd with his hands free, she gave him Jesus to hold. Having empty hands was his fortune, and on another level, it will also be our fortune.IOW, in approaching Christ you bring nothing but your faith in Him, and upon that faith alone (empty hands) you receive, freely, ALL of Christ: All of who He is and what He accomplished through His redemptive work.

I really think the Fr. gets it.

Another amazing commentary.

MD, you have incredible insight and ability to draw the ‘essence’ from gospel, epistles, etc. Just when others think they have you ‘struck out’ … you have a ‘checkmate’ at bat.

Nothing is so effective as quoting other Catholics and doctrines … to the Hebrew legalites.

 

[sandusky]

Another amazing commentary.

MD, you have incredible insight and ability to draw the ‘essence’ from gospel, epistles, etc. Just when others think they have you ‘stuck out’ … you have a ‘checkmate’ at bat.

Nothing is so effective as quoting other Catholics and doctrines … to the Hebrew legalites.

Well, they’re not all deaf.

 

[mikeledes]

The burning is a judgment upon fruitlessness, not an abandonment to eternal destruction…

AGAIN, keep in mind the subject matter is bearing fruit, not believing in Christ for eternal life. In 1 Cor. 3:10-15 Paul teaches that the Christian worker has to, in the future, stand before the judgment seat of Christ to have his works evaluated. There the words “fire” and “burned up” are also figuratively used to describe that judgment, and they do not at all refer to eternal damnation of the Christian worker.

Don’t read more into a metaphor than what is there. And certainly don’t build contradictory doctrines on a metaphor.

With all due respect, you are comparing apples with oranges. You’re right, fire does not always mean destruction. However, John 15:6 gives the purpose for the casting into the fire:

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

The Greek word translated “burned” is kaio, and “kaio” means that the subject is consumed by fire. So the person is not cast into the fire to be refined - which is the other Biblical usage of fire - but to be burned, which has the sense of destruction. Even in 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, the word “burn up” is used in the sense of consumed or destroyed by fire - since wood, hay, and stray cannot survive fire, they are destroyed. We find a variant of kaio in Hebrews 6:7-8

**7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those or whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. **

The context clearly indicates that this is a reference to eternal damnation. Moreover, when the Greek words “eis” (into) and “pur” (fire) appear together in the New Testament and used as a reference to a person, it is always a reference to eternal damnation. When fire is used in a non-destructive sense, the word “pur” is used with the word “dia”, which means through, as in passing through fire.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1223

A couple of examples of through (dia) fire is 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Corinthians 3:15, the verse passage you keep citing. Notice that in 1 Corinthians 3:14, it is the person’s work that is burned up or destroyed. When discussing the person, the phrase is “dia purov”, or through fire. In John 15:6, however, it is not the person’s work that is being burned - since works are symbolized by fruit - but the person, which is symbolized by the branch.

We also have the word “withered.” When the word xeraino (withered) is used in reference to a plant, it always means death. A dried up plant is a dead plant, it has no life within it. We see this in:

Mark 11:13-14, 20-21

13Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
14He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again!” And His disciples were listening
20As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up.
21Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."

Why did Christ curse the fig tree? Because it had no fruit. What was the curse? He said “May no one ever eat from you again.” Which means that this tree will never bear fruit again. How was this curse accomplished? He deprived it of its* life*. The tree lost its life and without life, it could never bear fruit. Now earlier, moondweller, you said:

Life is the power in the Vine by which the branch produces fruit.

You’re right. Where there is no life, there is no power. So can you explain how the “withered” branches of John 15:6 still have life within them, considering they no longer have power to bear fruit. And if they lost their power, how is it that they have not lost their life, since life is power.

Finally, John 15:6 has all of the key hallmarks of eternal damnation:

1. Gathering
2. Thrown into the fire
3. Burned

Found in a passage like:

Matthew 13:39-40

39 … and the reapers are angels.
40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

God bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

Well I guess that means I need to work on my belief (Faith).

.

No. You need to RELAX from your works. You need to learn to REST in Christ.

Before we can ever do anything pleasing to the Father … we must let Christ apply His Salvation WORK to us.

Faith gets us to Christ’s door. We Covenant with Christ … and only then do we get to know the Father. And the graces will flow like the River Jordan.

Then, as disciple of Christ, the Workmanship desired of you will be revealed.

 

[Philthy]

I hold the same position as moondweller, Philthy; however, I’m losing interest speaking to
deaf ears.

Sure you do. Thanks for clearing that up. Please dont feel compelled to return to satisfy your “interest”.

 

[Philthy]

No. You need to RELAX from your works. You need to learn to REST in Christ.

Before we can ever do anything pleasing to the Father … we must let Christ apply His Salvation WORK to us.

Faith gets us to Christ’s door. We Covenant with Christ … and only then do we get to know the Father. And the graces will flow like the River Jordan.

Then, as disciple of Christ, the Workmanship desired of you will be revealed.

Did you not even sense the wind racing over your head as you typed out this response? It (my response to MD) was a joke…

Just so you know - you and MD barely agree on anything. Those things you believe the two of you agree on are largely misunderstandings on your part.

Why dont you step in - as the moderater you’re trying to be - and establish a clear answer from both teams on the following:

• Should the saved follow the 10 Commandments? Y or N
  If yes, why? If no, why not?
• For those who die and go to Heaven, is there an eternal, negative consequence for choosing to disobey the 10 Commandments? Y or N
  As it stands, Im not sure the two teams could agree on “Jesus wept” let alone all the other verses…we might as well get some insight on the answer to the OP before it goes any further.

 

[chiquidie]

Satan, Lucifer, Devils, Demons, Anti-Christs all Satan’s seeds and followers all of you will be cast away! Stop disturbing/luring GOD’s people. The Ressurection of Jesus is here!

 

[Pax]

From who’s perspective ? Your’s or God’s.

OSAS is simply a false doctrine and this is not my opinion. My perspective is not my own as if I somehow made it up. My perspective is based upon the word of God.

If this errant doctrine were true, it would be of such immense importance that scripture would clearly state the doctrine, and there would be no verses in scripture that would even remotely appear to refute it. Naturally, neither of these obvious criteria are met, but there is plenty to refute the idea.

I have personally researched over 65 passages of scripture that clearly deny the doctrine. If you would like me to send you the file containing these passages, simply PM me with an email address and I will send it to you. None of this is my opinion…it is straight out of the bible and it is amazingly clear.

 

[moondweller]

With all due respect, you are comparing apples with oranges. You’re right, fire does not always mean destruction. However, John 15:6 gives the purpose for the casting into the fire:

6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

My point was that “fire” does not alway mean Hell fire. And that is not what the word “fire” in Jn. 15:6 refers to. I made reference to 1 Cor. 3:11-15 because I believe it has immediate bearing on the passage in question.

Again, Mike, the CONTEXT is fruit bearing and Jesus instructed his disciples/apostles that in order to bear fruit in their up and coming earthly ministry they must abide in Him for this fruit to be produced. It required a complete dependence on Him for Him to work through them.

In verse six He presents the warning that if anyone does not abide in Him (still in the context of fruit bearing) he is thrown away as a branch. This all pertains to the Christian worker: He is thrown away, and as a consequence he dries up and no “fruit” can be produced.

Now please take notice of part B of that verse, noting in particular the change in the pronouns (you don’t Greek):6 "and they gather them (not “him”), and cast them (not “him”) into the fire and they (not “him”) are burned."Within that same verse the text changes from singular to plural pronouns. The change is striking and speaks to the accuracy of Scripture. The “them” and “they” are what issues from the one who was cast off as a dried up branch. And what issues from this dried up branch - but dead works: "wood, hay, straw."1 Cor 3:11-15 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is {to be} revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."As I said before, Mike, God does not cast His children into Hell fire. Wrong god, my friend. Wrong “gospel,” too.

 

[Pax]

I am not going to break out each section of this post into quotes for purposes of response. Instead, I’ll comment in the color blue.

-]/-]

First off, we know we never can fully know the state of another’s soul. Thus, we are not to judge another … with regards to their salvation. Agreed.

So, if I say to you … I’m assured of my salvation. Can you with complete confidence and with infallible wisdom judge my situation ?I can tell you this much based upon scripture. I do not “know” if you are saved or not, and neither do you. We can have a moral assurance of salvation, but not a metaphysical assurance. Such a level of assurance is on the level of knowledge, and on this issue that knowledge is reserved for God alone.

The best you can do … is to speak for yourself. Your ‘personal experience of reality’ is all you can confidently know & testify to.
You can quote us scriptures … but, that’s hearsay evidence for you. Can Paul’s life experience and word testimony thereof be yours ?The best any Christian can do is quote scripture and use God’s gift of reason in presenting anything to anyone. I do not consider the scriptures to be “hearsay.” I, instead, find that it provides the truth and convicts me of the truth. Paul’s life experience and testimony is given to us in scripture. The main thing is understanding his testimony correctly.

Yes, indeed it can …but, not until you internalize his message, not until your soul is transformed by that message, not until that message is ‘consumed’ and becomes ‘recreated’ within your mind, body, & soul. Not until it becomes your personal testimony and daily reality. Are you supposing that I have not been transformed by the word of God in scripture? If I disagree with your interpretation of Paul, does that somehow disqualify me?

If MD told you … ‘I’ve had a private revelation from my Lord, and been assurred I’m among his elect’ … would you not ‘respect’ his belief on the matter ? What’s the point in trying to talk another out of a ‘harmless’ belief ? Your hypothetical would need much more detail for me to make any kind of reasoned response as to the reliability of the claim concerning personal revelation on this issue. I will not make any categorical denial of such a possibility, but that is as far as I will go at this point on that issue. What we have been discussing, i.e. OSAS, is not a harmless belief. It is an obvious heresy and heresies are a denial or distortion of the truth and are always dangerous. I can give you scripture on that issue if you need it.

Do you think the Pope has any ‘doubts’ about his calling and life mission ? Now, he’s more humble than the laity, and might not wish to speak of his private revelations … out of concern it might create angst in another not sharing his salvation convictions. Why make this kind of speculation as if it helps your argument. Your thoughts on this are of no help in the discussion. They are speculative and irrelevant.

Even though the Church does not ‘stress’ salvation assurance … I don’t think you will find them calling someone who believes it heretical, and demanding a recant. The Church clearly denies OSAS. The Church does support the idea of a moral assurance of salvation and does so with a thorough and biblically sound approach. This is different from OSAS.

The CCC does acknowledge that some can enjoy more assurance than another. Basically, as long as one is fully confessed, filled with God’s spiritual presence, and remains a faithful disciple … there is no reason to lack assurace. Some can maintain such purity and holiness for long periods, years, even lifetimes. This is true, but the Church presents the same warnings to them that are given to NT Christians by Jesus, Paul, James, John, and Peter.

Maybe the Protestants know something in this regard you don’t. And perhaps the protestants that teach this errant doctrine are steeped in a very serious error and simply don’t realize it. It is for this reason that I use only scripture in presenting my case on this issue. I do this out of respect for my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ because they generally love and appreciate scripture. We all recognize scripture as the inspired word of God. It is my hope that exposing OSAS believers to the appropriate scriptures that they will see that this is a serious error. Moreover, I also give careful attention to the scriptures that OSAS believers attempt to use to support OSAS to demonstrate that those passages do not in fact support the doctrine. I will discuss these things with OSAS believers to plant seeds. The Holy Spirit will do all of the heavy lifting.

 

[Pax]

Does James actually record that God justified Abraham AGAIN at the time of offering up Isaac? NO! He cites only Gen. 15:6 (Ja. 2:23).

In your effort to introduce an unbiblical doctrine, i.e., multiple justifications based on works, you completely miss the point James is making.

But the bottom line remains, James quotes Gen. 15:6 ONLY. He can cite no other occasion where God justified Abraham - and that based on his belief in Him alone. Paul, in fact, builds his doctrine of justification by faith alone by citing this one and only passage:Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. "For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Both James and Paul can cite only ONE occasion where it is recorded that God justified Abraham.You do realize that it is on this form of reasoning, only, that you can build and support your doctrine, right? One can introduce any extra-biblical doctrine one can imagine into the faith through this form of reasoning. Are the newagers correct when they claim Jesus studied in India during the unrecorded years of His life? Based on your reasoning you cannot refute their claim since you too build your doctrine on silence.

It appears that you have not read the posts I made and recommended to you. If you have read them it would appear that you have not analyzed what was presented. One thing is certain. You have not refuted what I presented, and your remarks to Phil clearly demonstrate that point.

Your post is bereft of merit.

 

[sandusky]

As I said before, Mike, God does not cast His children into Hell fire. Wrong god, my friend. Wrong “gospel,” too.

Amen.

 

[Pax]

My point was that “fire” does not alway mean Hell fire. And that is not what the word “fire” in Jn. 15:6 refers to. I made reference to 1 Cor. 3:11-15 because I believe it has immediate bearing on the passage in question.

Again, Mike, the CONTEXT is fruit bearing and Jesus instructed his disciples/apostles that in order to bear fruit in their up and coming earthly ministry they must abide in Him for this fruit to be produced. It required a complete dependence on Him for Him to work through them.

In verse six He presents the warning that if anyone does not abide in Him (still in the context of fruit bearing) he is thrown away as a branch. This all pertains to the Christian worker: He is thrown away, and as a consequence he dries up and no “fruit” can be produced.

Now please take notice of part B of that verse, noting in particular the change in the pronouns (you don’t Greek):6 "and they gather them (not “him”), and cast them (not “him”) into the fire and they (not “him”) are burned."Within that same verse the text changes from singular to plural pronouns. The change is striking and speaks to the accuracy of Scripture. The “them” and “they” are what issues from the one who was cast off as a dried up branch. And what issues from this dried up branch - but dead works: "wood, hay, straw."1 Cor 3:11-15 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is {to be} revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."As I said before, Mike, God does not cast His children into Hell fire. Wrong god, my friend. Wrong “gospel,” too.

You are wrong about John 15:6, and I proved this earlier to you by comparing that passage to Romans 11:17-22 which clearly refers to salvation and the loss of salvation when the branches are broken off.

You’ve now jumped to 1 Cor. 3:11-15 which may have been the worst thing you could do. The portion that you quoted might make one think that your position is correct, but you’ve failed to examine verses 16 and 17 which say:

“Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.”

Please take note of the progression in the context of the entire passage.

—It starts with the foundation which is Jesus Christ.

—it moves to building with the good materials of gold, silver, precious stones,

—it then mentions the bad materials of wood, hay, straw

—it then says that each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

–we are then told that if any man’s work which he has built on it remains *, he will receive a reward.

—If any man’s work is burned up * he will suffer loss;

—Since the man has some good things built upon gold, silver, and precious stones, and has some bad stuff built upon wood, hay, and straw, he will suffer loss as the bad stuffed is burned away and he will receive a reward for the good stuff,

—and in this proces he himself will be saved yet so as through fire*.

Now look at what comes next in the context of all of this: Verses 16 and 17 say:

“Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.”

In other words if you have nothing built upon gold, silver, and precious stones there will be nothing left, then the temple is destroyed. If any man destroys the temple based on all of this, then God will destroy him. This language is the language of condemnation. This condemnation and destruction for destroying the temple where God’s Spirit dwells is in the preceding context of fire, and hell is always associated with fire.*

 

[Pax]

As I said before, Mike, God does not cast His children into Hell fire. Wrong god, my friend. Wrong “gospel,” too.

Amen.

There is a bit of truth in what you say. A Christian can by choice leave the household to live a life of dissipation and sin. This choice separates the child from God. We illustrated how this is the case earlier by presenting the parable of the Prodigal Son. Unless we repent, we then voluntarily head for hell all on our own.

James shows how this repentance is necessary for a child of God that wanders from the truth. In James 5:19-20 it says:

“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever **brings back **a sinner from the error of his way **will save his soul from death **and will cover a multitude of sins.”