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sandusky
Guest
Right again BRB.
ISTM you’ve heard the warnings preached in your Church, as I have heard them preached in mine, and others. If not, you’ve certainly read them in Scripture, and understand their purpose.
Those who preach God’s word must announce both the promises of God, and His warnings, as they do not have the ability to see into the hearts of men thereby identifying true saving faith.
The work of the Spirit causes the promises to be joyfully embraced in the heart of the believer. The warnings are used by God both to exhort the saved, and to pronounce judgment on the hypocrites.
Never forget, that His are secure in His promises, as the Scriptures tell us. Disregard the Johnny-come-lately who attempts to use his tradition to sway you away from God’s word.**You ought to notice particularly and store in your memory that God wanted to lay a firm foundation in the scriptures against treacherous errors, a foundation against which no one dares to speak who would in any way be considered a Christian. For when He offered Himself to them to touch, this did not suffice Him unless He also confirmed the heart of the believers from the Scriptures, for He [Christ] foresaw that the time would come when we would not have anything to touch but would have something to read.
Augustine,** In Epistolam Johannis tractus, 2. See NPNF Series I. VII:469.
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Philthy
Guest
Sandusky, have you gone on vacation and left your nephew with access to your computer or something? This verse doesnt even begin to support justification only occuring once. It simply says that as a result of being justified that they have peace with God. It doesnt say anything about the possibility of losing that peace, it doesnt say that the justification can’t be added to or repeated if necessary or anything. It simply isnt there. OTOH Paul repeatedly warns believers that “Be not deceived, adulterers, fornicators, etc etc etc will not inherit the kingdom of God.” And he also says to the believers in Romans 2:
"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. {There will be} tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
Note how he would never have said such a thing if, in fact, salvation were “once and forever” by “faith alone”, would he? What would be the point?
And while we’re radically veering off course, could I get your simple answer to these:
Should the saved seek to follow the 10 Commandments? Y or N
If yes, why? If No, why not?
Is there an eternal, negative consequence in Heaven for not having been obedient to the 10 Commandments during the earthly life? Y or N
If Y, what is/are they?
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Philthy
Guest
, lacking the vital power to produce them. Do these “dead” works that you refer to fall under the category of “good works?”
Secondly, you have yet to explain how a person can lose the vital power to produce fruit and yet still have life within them, considering that it is life that is the power? Moreover, without this vital power, how can they progress and persevere in their “experiential” sanctification, considering that Hebrews 12:14 states:
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
A person who lacks the vital power to bear fruit cannot walk by the Spirit, because walking by the Spirit automatically results in good fruit.
Neither does He make empty threats to disinherit them when He knows that can never happen:22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
God Bless,
Michael
Hey BRB - you missed these 3 homeruns fly right over your head…
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BRB
Guest
Those ECF are golden ! Some were better than others. Justin Martyr and Athanasus are top flight, just to mention my personal favorites. Reading early church history is like panning for Gold. Prized nuggets are everywhere. That was back before Politics became dominant … and sapped alot of spiritual energy from the faith. Back when peoples lives were on the line for their beliefs.
People are so spoiled and secure in todays age … their faiths are only a shadow of that of the Forebears. Reading early Church History will allow us to live among the GIANTS of the Faith.
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BRB
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OK … I was reliving those Glory Days of yore. Back when the Catholic Church had some real Apologists
Hey BRB - you missed these 3 homeruns fly right over your head…
Lets allow 2 runs for the Lawyers … Moon’s Team is only leading by 2 now.
High time for the legalites to get your ‘rally caps’ on. Its Pennant Time … the World Series only takes the best of the best.
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moondweller
Guest
The issue here is being broken off from a position of privilege in relation to the promise of the Abrahamic covenant (“the root”).
National Israel was broken off because of its unbelief (national rejection of their Messiah, vs. 20) and during this church age God’s primary focus is the Gentiles. The church being made up of primarily Gentiles, but of course including a Jewish remnant (God never fully forsakes Israel, vs. 5).Rom 11:11-22 "I say then, they (Israel) did not stumble so as to fall (never to recover), did they? May it never be! But by their (Israel’s) transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them (Israel) jealous. Now if their transgression (Israel’s unbelief) is riches for the world (salvation) and their failure (unbelief) is riches for the Gentiles (salvation and position of privilege), how much more will their (Israel’s) fulfillment be! (a statement, not a question).
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them (as part of the Jewish remnant). For if their rejection (national Israel’s) is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} (national Israel’s) acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece {of dough} is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you (Gentiles), being a wild olive, were grafted in among them (the Jewish remnant) and became partaker with them (the Jewish remnant) of the rich root of the olive tree (the Abrahamic covenant of promise), do not be arrogant (you Gentiles) toward the branches (Israel); but if you are arrogant, {remember that} it is not you who supports the root, but the root {supports} you (the covenants belong to Israel). You (Gentiles) will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I (a Gentile) might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief (national Israel), but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (unbelieving national Israel), He will not spare you (Gentiles), either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell (national Israel), severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you (Gentiles) continue in His kindness (through faith); otherwise you (Gentiles) also will be cut off (from the position of privilege and blessing). And they also (national Israel), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them (national Israel) in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, **how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree?**Now this is where Paul clearly shows he’s talking about national Israel:For I do not want you, brethren (Gentile brethren), to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (i.e., into the church Christ is presently building); and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from JACOB (national Israel). This is My covenant with them, when I take away their (national Israel’s) sins. From the standpoint of the gospel they (unbelieving Israel) are enemies for your (Gentile’s) sake, but from the standpoint of {God’s} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Israel’s); for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."IOW, God will yet fulfill all His covenant and prophetic promises to national Israel as revealed in the O.T. by her ancient prophets. One of the greatest lies of this age is that the church has replaced Israel and is called “the Israel of God.” An egregious error held to this day by both Catholics and Protestants, causing them to be unable to comprehend large bodies of Scripture.
None of what Paul is saying in Rom. 11 has to do with individual believers losing their salvation.
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moondweller
Guest
Very well stated.
And this is where Catholicism and much of Protestantism stumbles in their interpretation of the Scriptures. One can only imagine what their overall view of God is.
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mikeledes
Guest
BRB, I always find it interesting when Calvinists cite Augustine to support their doctrine. In fact, Augustine was highly respected by John Calvin and continues to be respected by many Calvinist theologians. Augustine did not believe in OSAS or perseverance of the saints. The first one to believe in such a doctrine was John Calvin, since Martin Luther and modern-day Lutherans rejected that notion as well. In chapter 21 of The Gift of Perseverance, Augustine wrote:
**Of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? **
Obviously, Augustine did not interpet 1 Peter 1:5 in the OSAS or Calvinist sense. If he did, he wouldn’t have said what he said above. He also believed that no one had certitude that one will receive the gift of perseverance. He states in chapter 1 of the Gift of Final Perseverance:
**Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent,— or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. **
Therefore, Augustine would obviously have a decidedly different take on 1 Peter 1:5 and the warning passages from that which the OSAS/Calvinist proposes. In fact, he utilizes one of these warning (1 Corinthians 10:12) in chapter 33:
To which calling there is no man that can be said by men with any certainty of affirmation to belong, until he has departed from this world; but in this life of man, which is a state of trial upon the earth, Job 7:1 he who seems to stand must take heed lest he fall.
So how should we interpret 1 Peter 1:5 (NASB)?
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
No one denies that we are protected by the power of God. As Catholics, we believe that the power to persevere is a gift of God and that final perseverance - as taught by Augustine - is a gift of God as well. But God uses means to protect us and to manifest His power. Through what means does God protect us? 1 Peter 1:5 says that we are protected by the power of God through faith. And when Peter says faith, what does he mean? We get that answer in James 2:14:
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Obviously, Peter does not have in mind a fruitless faith because he would be contradicting James 2. The faith Peter refers to is a "faith that works through love (Galatians 5:6). A faith that works through love necessarily bears fruit. That’s why Peter also said:
2 Peter 1:5-9
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
To faith, Peter urges that the Christian must diligently *add *virtue, knowledge, self-control, godliness, perseverance, brotherly kindness, and love. In other words, the means by which God *sanctifies us and without which "no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). That’s why Paul describes eternal life as being the “outcome” of sanctification (Romans 6:22) and He also says:
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
The faith through which God protects, through which God keeps us, is a fruitful faith - a faith united to love. That’s why those branches in John 15 that remain in the True Vine are protected by God from removal while those that do not are thrown away, wither, gathered, cast into the fire, and burned. The fact that there are unfruitful branches in Christ or branches that fail to abide demonstrates that not all of the just are kept by God. Otherwise, all of the branches would abide till the end.
God Bless,
Michael*
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sandusky
Guest
Whether or not justification occurs once is very much a part of the question AFAIC, Phil—you’re position is that justification occurs many times. Keep that in mind.
But I do expect them to turn a deaf ear—Jesus tells me so:**Luke 10:16
“The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”**Doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect me from time to time.
Then list your plethora of Scripture stating that justification occurs multiple times, and you’ll have made your point.
Key words those in red.
They speak to the visibility of the working faith.
Remember James opening of the passage pertains to one who says he has faith, but his lack of action denies that he has faith.
OTOH, Abraham was said to have been declared righteous by his faith (Gen 15), and his actions demonstrate that he was (Gen 22).
From the point of God’s pronouncement in Gen 15:6 Abraham was justified until the end of his life including Gen 22.
But Scripture is truly discerned only by the “spiritually regenerate,” and not by the "moronically literate."
I disagree with you, Phil.
And without your tradition, it would be perfectly clear to you that my alleged “erroneous assumption,” is not erroneous, but Biblical.
(continued)
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sandusky
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(continued from post #488)
Philthy:
Philthy:
Philthy:
Philthy:
The Greek word for “obey” in the blue above is peithō. It means to be persuaded to believe…in this case the truth of the gospel (cf 1:16).
So it’s those who are not persuaded to believe the gospel, but instead are persuaded that wickedness is the way to go, they’ll get wrath.
The Christian won’t get wrath, Christ took it for him (2 Cor 5:21).
Philthy:
Philthy:
Sure it does, Phil, the verb tense is clear.
That’s right.
Because that’s your tradition, not Paul’s soteriology.
Correct; that’s what God will do.
The Greek word for “obey” in the blue above is peithō. It means to be persuaded to believe…in this case the truth of the gospel (cf 1:16).
So it’s those who are not persuaded to believe the gospel, but instead are persuaded that wickedness is the way to go, they’ll get wrath.
The Christian won’t get wrath, Christ took it for him (2 Cor 5:21).
They’re always in my mind to keep them because they are Holy and good.
There’s only one in heaven who’s perfectly kept the commandments during His earthly life, and His is the only name given by which one must be saved, and His name is not Ten Commandments, but Jesus.
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moondweller
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Heb 7:24-25 "…but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
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chiquidie
Guest
Why? Are you GODsend? Did GOD talk to you? You can’t skip even just one meal or to walk even just for 5 miles! And here you are trying to impress us that you know GOD’s Word .
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Catholic_Dude
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Bogus. There is nothing to stop and “pause” about if you are not in any real danger. This is even more ridiculous given the contexts which these warnings are given where damnation is what is warned against (eg 1 Cor 10:1-12).
Further, and just as ridiculous, is your second part about how it gives the unbelievers something more to consider. In Reformed theology, unregenerate man cannot sit down and reason himself into salvation, nor does his level of commitment influence God’s action in saving him. The amount of sin and rebellion the unregenerate is living in has zero influence on his salvation.
These “solutions” which Reformed Protestants provide might sound plausible on the surface, but in fact are not logically consistent with their own theology.
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Catholic_Dude
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Those wondering if justification only happens once need to pick up a Lexicon (Greek-English Bible Dictionary) and find passages like these:
1 Cor 4: 1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
The word in red (“innocent”) is the SAME Greek word St Paul uses all over the place for “justified.” Paul says explicitly his conscience is clear but that does not make him justified (Catholics would call this Final Justification at Judgement time). This must wait until the future time.
1 Cor 4: 1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
The word in red (“innocent”) is the SAME Greek word St Paul uses all over the place for “justified.” Paul says explicitly his conscience is clear but that does not make him justified (Catholics would call this Final Justification at Judgement time). This must wait until the future time.
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Pax
Guest
Have you actually read all of the posts on this and the first thread. Your posts are of significant number, but your understanding of our position is zilch. If you appreciated even a scintilla of what we have said, you would not refer to us as legalites.Right you are !!!
No need for me to switchhit for the Legalites, and award them unearned runs …
They need to ‘step up’ their game … and ‘Work’ for those wages.
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Pax
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ABSOLUTELY !!!
and, our brother Pax still wants to send us 65 items of Proof text … disproving election and OSAS
What could possible ‘trump’ the First Pope Peter’s support for bornagain REBIRTH, SALVATION ASSURANCE, & OSAS ??
Sandusky … might we say those scriptures above are INFALLIBLE [with regards to faith & morals …]
A Homerun for you … scored for Paul - PETER’s team
You are very uninformed when it comes to scripture including the writings of the apostle Peter. Among the sixty five passages that I researched are quotes from Peter that deny the false doctrine of OSAS.OK … believe so if you must. But, your Numero Uno Pope Peter disagrees with you …
If this doctrine had a shred of credibility, scripture would make many statements about it that would be extremely explicit, and that would rule out any possible understanding to the contrary. This of course is not the case. Most of scripture clearly denies it and very little of scripture can even be remotely misconstrued to even suggest it.
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sandusky
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Catholic Dude:
I don’t worship images and such, and am therefore, not an idolater; neither do I engage in sexual orgies; come to think of it, none of my brothers and sisters in Christ do those things. How about yours?
Catholic Dude:
The unregenerate man is ungodly, however:**Romans 5:6
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.**
In Catholic theology, the unregenerate is not able to reason himself into salvation either; he would need grace; unless of course, the Catholic is Pelagian?
Be that as it may, there is no set time limit on God’s calling of the elect—it might take an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, many years, but the calling is enlightening and effective in its movement toward regeneration—the restoration of right reason. Reformed theology is reasonable theology.
Catholic Dude:
Correct; I don’t pause because I’m in any real danger, knowing certainly that justification cannot be lost; however, I do pause, and examine myself, as instructed by the same apostle, and I pause and consider all that I lacked while I was lost.
I don’t worship images and such, and am therefore, not an idolater; neither do I engage in sexual orgies; come to think of it, none of my brothers and sisters in Christ do those things. How about yours?
Catholic Dude:
Correct; the amount, extent and severity of the unregenerate’s sins have no influence on his salvation.
The unregenerate man is ungodly, however:**Romans 5:6
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.**
In Catholic theology, the unregenerate is not able to reason himself into salvation either; he would need grace; unless of course, the Catholic is Pelagian?
Be that as it may, there is no set time limit on God’s calling of the elect—it might take an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, many years, but the calling is enlightening and effective in its movement toward regeneration—the restoration of right reason. Reformed theology is reasonable theology.
Catholic Dude:
In your opinion.
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sandusky
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That is what Catholics would call that.
However, I wouldn’t call it that. My justification was final when God declared me righteous in Christ on the basis of faith.
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Pax
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You are absolutely clueless. There is nothing in Romans 11:17-22 that separates the meaning of national Israel from the individuals that form it. That is the goofiest argument anyone can make. Not every person that was a Jew that were contemporary with the NT writers were cut off. Many were converted to Christianity yet they were still members of the Jewish community. Moreover, the earliest christians still went to synagogue and the temple. Even Paul did. Some were cut off and some were not. This applies to individuals and anything you say to the contrary is pure sophistry. The final proof of this is found in Paul’s reference to the gentiles being cut off. Obviously, not all of the gentile nation(?) could possibly be cut off, but only individual gentiles that fall into that category.
Please don’t lecture me about context. I gave you all of the context, and even explained the context to you.
Moreover, you have just made another huge blunder. First of all, it is not a whole new paragraph. The original Greek didn’t have all of the modern day punctuation and paragraphing that we currently see. Your point is irrelevant. Moreover, verses 16 and 17 are still part of the immediate context, and anyone can see that when reading the text. Likewise, the next several verses are tied in as well. It is not like Paul shot off in a whole new unrelated direction.
Let’s assume for the moment that the paragraphing is important and that it serves a purpose. The obvious purpose that it would serve, by way of the context, is to show that this is the next thing in the level of seriousness at the time of judgment. That, of course, being hell. This is so obvious that I cannot believe that you cannot see the relationship in these verses and the clear explanation that I rendered in the totality of the post in which I presented them.
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