The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[BRB]

, God will yet fulfill all His covenant and prophetic promises to national Israel as revealed in the O.T. by her ancient prophets. One of the greatest lies of this age is that the church has replaced Israel and is called “the Israel of God.” An egregious error held to this day by both Catholics and Protestants, causing them to be unable to comprehend large bodies of Scripture.

.

MD …

God has always had his remnant thru the ages. And it has included gentiles as well as Jews. Recall how God in OT (via the prophets) and how Christ [in the NT gospels] … chided the Jewish legalites and false priests for their unbelief and lack of true devotion. And, he used examples of faithful-believing GENTILES who were his true children … not them. This is why they killed Christ. The fact he spoke of GOOD Samaritan [the Parable is about Christ himself //// Christ is the Samaritan, no one is GOOD but God alone] … and the fact Christ healed the gentile ‘dogs’ … infuriated the legalites no end.

Yes, God desired a Faithful NATION of Jews to follow him … but, they would not. They were constantly abusing and neglecting their prophets … finally Killing their True King.

Furthermore, Christ chose his new Jewish 12 as apostles … to build his Church upon. But, now a Church UNIVERSAL via a NEW COVENANT. All Christian branches have our true roots thru these Jewish 12 faithful remnant. They are the base trunk of the tree of life. They are the first fruits of Christ … into which all NT gentiles and Jews are attached to Christ.

The Tree of Life is growing ever larger in size. As we die, those new buds we inspired to seek Christ – grow forth from our stems … and become the next generation of flowers/fruits on the outer edge of the Tree. Always rooted back to Christ thru all the prior 20 centuries of tree growth. We always stand upon the shoulders of those who went before us. We gain from their blood, sweat, and tears of service to the Lord. Their early martyrdom becomes our inspiration to ‘die to this World’ and accept new life, yet always rooting into the ONE who first died for us all.

This is the message of the ECF’s in their writings. This is the vision they inherited from the first 12 Israelites. The OT is filled with Typology that testifies to this. This is the glorious TRADITION of Christianity we all need to discover and internalize.

OUR ROOTS are securely planted into the ROCK CHRIST, then the Rock Peter, then the other 11 rocks plus Paul, then all the centuries of True Belivers in Faith ever since — which are anchored to eternity via God’s Church, which will never fail.

 

[sandusky]

I think the doctrine that teaches justification by faith alone is errant and unbiblical.

Of course you do, you’re Catholic.

 

[sandusky]

BRB:

OH MY !!! Moon, you were on a solid streak … til you said this.

One of the greatest lies of this age is that the church has replaced Israel and is called “the Israel of God.” An egregious error held to this day by both Catholics and Protestants, causing them to be unable to comprehend large bodies of Scripture.

moondweller’s right, BRB

For an insightful look at replacement theology and some of its effects on the church the early church and beyond, I’d recommend Israel and the Church.

The idea that the early church replaced Israel permeated every part of the Church, and, IMO, brought much error into the church’s theology, and especially the liturgy, complete with sacraments, altars, sacrifices, priests, etc., all of which have no precedent in the church of the apostles, but were instead modeled after OT Israel. The effects/errors of replacement theology were strongly felt into the middle of the last century, and are still prevalent today.

 

[Philthy]

Of course you do, you’re Catholic.

Interesting diversion we went on there - again…anyhow…

Is there an eternal, negative consequence experienced in Heaven for those who willfully chose to disobey the 10 Commandments (love of God and neighbor)? If so, what is it?

This question directly bears on the topic “Should the commandments be followed”, no? If you dont really have an answer that’s OK, and if you would prefer not to answer just say so…

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

Interesting diversion we went on there - again…anyhow…

Is there an eternal, negative consequence experienced in Heaven for those who willfully chose to disobey the 10 Commandments (love of God and neighbor)? If so, what is it?

This question directly bears on the topic “Should the commandments be followed”, no? If you dont really have an answer that’s OK, and if you would prefer not to answer just say so…

I did answer you, Phil, but it seems my answer went by you.

Be that as it may, let me say first of all, your question is very Catholic, in that it is obsessed with punishments and consequences even into the eternal kingdom, which by all scriptural accounts will be devoid of any negative. Therefore, your question jolts me, and I wonder at the theology that implants such foreign ideas into the minds of its adherents.

I’ll restate my answer: there will be no human in heaven, except for one, who has not, many times, willfully chosen to disobey the 10 commandments.

Nevertheless:**1 Corinthians 2:9

but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

And, furthermore:

Isaiah 65:17

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.**The eternal state of being is so radically different from, and so radically superior to the present state of being that Paul says it cannot accurately be imagined.

 

[mikeledes]

But you do argue that men are justified on the basis of works AFTER that moment. It is the contention of Catholics on this thread that Abraham was justified (by God) by and at the time of offering up Issac. So, you would have us believe that God justifies the godly.

We don’t believe that justification is a once in a lifetime moment. I’ll leave that one for my fellow Catholics on this thread to discuss since my plate is full right now. However, we do believe that the moment we are justified, that that justification is not incomplete. And by incomplete I mean that we are half-forgiven or half-saved (in it’s first stage) and have to make up for what is lacking. That is not Catholic teaching.

Secondly, when we talk about works, we are talking about works done by the just because it is justification that makes those works sacrifices pleasing to God, that gives it a “sweet-smelling aroma (Phillipians 4:18).” Though I disagree with Matthew Henry on a number of points - for obvious reasons - he does make one point that I agree with in his commentary on James 2:

1. When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom. iii. 28), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. x., at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel…

For Paul, “works of the law” are those works done in obdience to the law of Moses *prior *to coming to faith and being justified. Since these works are done while one is in a state of bondage to sin, they in no way can free us from that bondage because they fall short, which is Paul’s main point in Romans and Galatians. They are not rooted in faith and love and we cannot properly believe or love by our own natural powers, both are gifts of God. God must intervene. James is talking about works done by the just in obedience to the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty. Unlike the works done prior to faith and justification, these works flow from a faith that works through love. Neither faith nor love can exist in a person who hasn’t been justified. Faith is the beginning and foundation of all things pertaining to salvation. Without it you cannot please God (Hebrews 11:6). Without faith, you cannot have love. Hence the presence of love is the objective evidence of faith. It is through love that faith is made manifest. The obective evidence of love is works, for love must manifest itself in works. So when James says that faith is perfected by works, he means that faith is perfected by love, for he clearly attributes works to love:

James 1:25

25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Works naturally flows when one is fulfilling the law of liberty, namely, love. Like faith, the object of true love is outward, not inward. Hence, love must always be humble (1 Corinthians 13:4-5) - recognizing it’s totaldependence on the One who is Love Himelf - and does not glory in itself. It gives glory to the One who is the proper object of love, God. And love of God automatically means love of neighbor, for one cannot exist without the other (1 John 4:20). The relationship between faith, love and the promised kingdom is made clear by James and reinforces what he said in later in chapter 2:

James 2:5

5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

Sandusky …

Listen to words of Justin Martyr, Chp. 41 / Dialogue with Jew Tryphon … re: OT prophesy

“I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name has been glorified among the GENTILES, and in every place INCENSE is offered to my name, and a PURE OFFERING: for my name is great among the gentiles says the Lord, but you profane it.”

So … the EUCHARIST is the pure sacrifice/offering, being offered from one end of the earth to the other, 24 - 7 … prophesied by Malachy. The Jews no longer have their Temple … and haven’t done the Temple sacrifice for around 1,938 years. That OT Jewish Temple sacrifice, is superceded by the Eucharist of Universal Church.

This prophesy has already been fulfilled.

 

[mikeledes]

MD …

God has always had his remnant thru the ages. And it has included gentiles as well as Jews. Recall how God in OT (via the prophets) and how Christ [in the NT gospels] … chided the Jewish legalites and false priests for their unbelief and lack of true devotion. And, he used examples of faithful-believing GENTILES who were his true children … not them. This is why they killed Christ. The fact he spoke of GOOD Samaritan [the Parable is about Christ himself //// Christ is the Samaritan, no one is GOOD but God alone] … and the fact Christ healed the gentile ‘dogs’ … infuriated the legalites no end.

Yes, God desired a Faithful NATION of Jews to follow him … but, they would not. They were constantly abusing and neglecting their prophets … finally Killing their True King.

Furthermore, Christ chose his new Jewish 12 as apostles … to build his Church upon. But, now a Church UNIVERSAL via a NEW COVENANT. All Christian branches have our true roots thru these Jewish 12 faithful remnant. They are the base trunk of the tree of life. They are the first fruits of Christ … into which all NT gentiles and Jews are attached to Christ.

The Tree of Life is growing ever larger in size. As we die, those new buds we inspired to seek Christ – grow forth from our stems … and become the next generation of flowers/fruits on the outer edge of the Tree. Always rooted back to Christ thru all the prior 20 centuries of tree growth. We always stand upon the shoulders of those who went before us. We gain from their blood, sweat, and tears of service to the Lord. Their early martyrdom becomes our inspiration to ‘die to this World’ and accept new life, yet always rooting into the ONE who first died for us all.

This is the message of the ECF’s in their writings. This is the vision they inherited from the first 12 Israelites. The OT is filled with Typology that testifies to this. This is the glorious TRADITION of Christianity we all need to discover and internalize.

OUR ROOTS are securely planted into the ROCK CHRIST, then the Rock Peter, then the other 11 rocks plus Paul, then all the centuries of True Belivers in Faith ever since — which are anchored to eternity via God’s Church, which will never fail.

BRB, I think the following article is helpful on this issue:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp

While Catholics do not deny that ethnic Israel plays a special role in God’s plan of salvation, it also asserts the existence of a spiritual Israel - the Church - that incorporates both Jewish and Gentile believers:

Romans 2:28-29

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9:6-8

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

I’d recommend Israel and the Church.

.

Any Catholics following this thread read this rec of Sandman … and have an opinion on it ?

 

[BRB]

BRB, I think the following article is helpful on this issue:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp

While Catholics do not deny that ethnic Israel plays a special role in God’s plan of salvation, it also asserts the existence of a spiritual Israel - the Church - that incorporates both Jewish and Gentile believers:

Good source on Covenant vs Dispensational [sensational] viewpoints. Certainly Jews will get a dramatic second chance reexposure to Christ.

But, before or after the Rapture of the Church ? The Protestants don’t have a firm viewpoint on this.

Thus, the best way to read the Apocalypse … is the way the Church does. John’s vision/testimony to the Mass. The perpetual ‘pure’ sacrifice of wine/bread … and the power unleased within by the body/blood/ H.S. of Christ in the ‘transformed’ host.

 

[mikeledes]

Any Catholics following this thread read this rec of Sandman … and have an opinion on it ?

I really think that should be a topic for another thread.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Philthy]

I did answer you, Phil, but it seems my answer went by you.

No, it didnt go by me - you answered, but you didnt answer the question that I asked. I simply wanted an answer to the question that I asked rather than an answer to a question I didnt ask but which you preferred to answer.

Be that as it may, let me say first of all, your question is very Catholic, in that it is obsessed with punishments and consequences even into the eternal kingdom, which by all scriptural accounts will be devoid of any negative.

Let me begin by saying that it’s not an “obsessive” question, its a focused, topically relevant question. Perhaps you need to review the thread topic, whether the Commandments should be followed? If we should follow them - as you implicitly suggested but couldnt quite fully bring yourself to unequivocally say - then it is not unreasonable or obsessive to question why we should and to question what the consequence of failing to do so would be. I dont think that is obsessive, I think that is perfectly natural.
In addition, I, as a Catholic, have always believed that Heaven is a place of perfect happiness for all. It was not until I encountered Protestants introducing the notion of “rewards” in Heaven distinct from our salvation that I began to wonder about what it means to have more or less in Heaven.

I’ll restate my answer: there will be no human in heaven, except for one, who has not, many times, willfully chosen to disobey the 10 commandments.

Apparently you dont realize that this is not an answer to the question I asked. My question acknowledges that those in Heaven had willfully chosen to disobey the 10 Commandments but requests clarification on whether there is an eternal, negative consequence associated with those breaches. Is there a loss of “rewards” for example? Is Heaven somehow superior for those who (saved by faith) persevered in good deeds vs. those who, (saved by faith) did not? It would be most helpful if you began your answer with a simple yes or a no, as in "Yes there is a consequence but…, or “No there is no consequence, however…” One or the other though, not both!

Nevertheless:**1 Corinthians 2:9 **but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.” **And, furthermore: ****Isaiah 65:17 **“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.The eternal state of being is so radically different from, and so radically superior to the present state of being that Paul says it cannot accurately be imagined.

If this is your way of saying “I dont know and neither does anyone else” - an option I offered you - please say so and I’ll know where you stand. I would totally respect that as an answer BTW…

 

[mikeledes]

Hey BRB - you missed these 3 homeruns fly right over your head…

:blushing: Thanks! I’m also waiting for a response to the following question:

How do they reconcile the existence of fruitless genuine Christians (John 15:2, 2 Peter 1:8-9) with James 2?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

I really think that should be a topic for another thread.

God Bless,
Michael

OK … back to Commandments.

One of the old covenant Ten IS BEING BROKEN every week by both Protestants and Catholics …in the opinion of Jews and those that worship on Saturday.

    "Remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy"

Do we have any New Covenant sacred scriptures where we are told to change worship to the First day of Week ?

Most Protestants and many Catholics don’t generally worship on the Sabbath … although Sat. Mass is an option. So, most of us are breaking the OT Commandment.

The early apostles perceived & taught Christianity needed to amend the Sabbath Commandment. The ‘8th day’ [the 1st day of week] became the tradition … per Scott Hahn.

Tradition says that Christ always appeared to disciples on the 1st day of the week, after having arisen on the 1st day. And after his ascension, Pentecost occurred on the 1st day. This was Key to them … the date Jesus chose to start the Church on. They also recognized that Baptism replaced circumcision … and that had always been an 8th day event for the Jews.

Justin Martyr confirms for us the Tradition in his Apology/ Chp. 67

“But Sunday is the day on which we hold our common assembly because it is the 1st day on which God, when he changed darkness and matter, made the world, and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.”

So, we have Tradition at play in ammending God’s command.

I think God would be pleased with our worship on the 1st day. We are now giving Christ our First Fruits on Day 1 … not waiting til the OT end of week to make our sacrifice.

 

[sandusky]

BRB:

Sandusky …

Listen to words of Justin Martyr, Chp. 41 / Dialogue with Jew Tryphon … re: OT prophesy

"I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name has been glorified among the GENTILES, and in every place INCENSE is offered to my name, and a PURE OFFERING: for my name is great among the gentiles says the Lord, but you profane it."

So … the EUCHARIST is the pure sacrifice/offering, being offered from one end of the earth to the other, 24 - 7 … prophesied by Malachy. The Jews no longer have their Temple … and haven’t done the Temple sacrifice for around 1,938 years. That OT Jewish Temple sacrifice, is superceded by the Eucharist of Universal Church.

This prophesy has already been fulfilled.

Diprose references the “Dialogue with Trypho.” Read the book, it’s worth it.

Controversy has swirled around the meaning of this verse, and I submit that the prophecy is yet future.

Martyr doesn’t quote the whole prophecy, however, I would point you to the part in blue.

I also submit that the statement, “…from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same…,” is comprehensive; IOW, in every place in the world, “…my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place, incense is offered to my name…” Again, a comprehensive statement—the whole of the gentile elect are in view.

One simply needs to read history to understand that that hasn’t happened, and it is not happening now.

Is all of the intrigue, politics, murders, crusades, killing of anybody and everybody throughout the church’s history glorifying to God? No.

Looking only at America, do the Gentiles in the pro-abortion camp glorify God? Does the inclusion of the Gentiles new definition of marriage as being between a man and a man, and a woman and a woman and woman glorify God? Is God’s name glorified by Gentile atheists, and so on, and so forth? No.

Are all of the Gentiles, including abortionists, gays, atheists, in every place offering incense to the glory of God? No.

Are all of the Gentiles, including abortionists, gays, atheists, in every place offering a grain offering to the glory of God? No.

Are all of the Gentiles, including abortionists, gays, atheists, in every place celebrating the Lord’s Supper? No.

In your enthusiasm for the writings of the Early Church Fathers, I would advise caution.

Unlike the apostles and prophets, who’s writings are "theopneustos," or "God-breathed,” the writings of the Early Church Fathers are NOT.

Some were great men, nevertheless, “the best of men are men at best.”

 

[sandusky]

No, it didnt go by me - you answered, but you didnt answer the question that I asked. I simply wanted an answer to the question that I asked rather than an answer to a question I didnt ask but which you preferred to answer.

Let me begin by saying that it’s not an “obsessive” question, its a focused, topically relevant question. Perhaps you need to review the thread topic, whether the Commandments should be followed? If we should follow them - as you implicitly suggested but couldnt quite fully bring yourself to unequivocally say - then it is not unreasonable or obsessive to question why we should and to question what the consequence of failing to do so would be. I dont think that is obsessive, I think that is perfectly natural.
In addition, I, as a Catholic, have always believed that Heaven is a place of perfect happiness for all. It was not until I encountered Protestants introducing the notion of “rewards” in Heaven distinct from our salvation that I began to wonder about what it means to have more or less in Heaven.

Apparently you dont realize that this is not an answer to the question I asked. My question acknowledges that those in Heaven had willfully chosen to disobey the 10 Commandments but requests clarification on whether there is an eternal, negative consequence associated with those breaches. Is there a loss of “rewards” for example? Is Heaven somehow superior for those who (saved by faith) persevered in good deeds vs. those who, (saved by faith) did not? It would be most helpful if you began your answer with a simple yes or a no, as in "Yes there is a consequence but…, or “No there is no consequence, however…” One or the other though, not both!

If this is your way of saying “I dont know and neither does anyone else” - an option I offered you - please say so and I’ll know where you stand. I would totally respect that as an answer BTW…

Just want to personally acknowledge that I’ve read your post, Phil.

 

[steve_b]

One of the greatest lies of this age is that the church has replaced Israel and is called “the Israel of God.” An egregious error held to this day by both Catholics and Protestants, causing them to be unable to comprehend large bodies of Scripture.

The beginning Church was 100% Jewish. The founder and new covenant maker, God incarnate. Son of God, son of David, son of Mary, the one all the prophets pointed to as the fulfillment of revelation. The Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, is the New Isreal.
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp

 

[sandusky]

The beginning Church was 100% Jewish. The founder and new covenant maker, God incarnate. Son of God, son of David, son of Mary, the one all the prophets pointed to as the fulfillment of revelation. The Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, is the New Isreal.
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp

That’s what both moondweller and myself have been saying; thanks for your support.

 

[savedsinner]

In your enthusiasm for the writings of the Early Church Fathers, I would advise caution.

Unlike the apostles and prophets, who’s writings are "theopneustos," or "God-breathed,” the writings of the Early Church Fathers are NOT.

Some were great men, nevertheless, “the best of men are men at best.”

I would be more inclined to listen to the Early Church Fathers than to your take of this passage of scripture since you are writing over 1,800 years after they wrote their interpretation of this passage, and you don’t belong to the same church that they did.

 

[sandusky]

I would be more inclined to listen to the Early Church Fathers than to your take of this passage of scripture since you are writing over 1,800 years after they wrote their interpretation of this passage, and you don’t belong to the same church that they did.

In reality, neither do you.