The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[guanophore]

I won’t belabor it on this thread, but you’ve just assigned to Mary a divine attribute.

No. Those of us that are involved in ministry to souls make a living out of working on the hearts of others. What distinguishes this from a secular perspective is that Mary have been “blessed among women”, and she is also "blessed even more " because she heard the Word of God and kept it. She spent more time with the Divine Son than any other human being on earth, and knew HIs mind and heart intimately, as mothers do their firstborn sons.

God is gracious to us, and allows us to “become all things to all men, so that by some means” we may save some. This is a participation in the ministry of reconciliation. Jesus became human so that we can become partakers of the Divine grace. Mary is the very first partaker of this Divine nature in Christ. She reflected the work of the HS in her life by obedience to God.

You are right, this is way off topic. In an effort to bring it back, let me ask this question:

What did Mary mean when she said…

John 2:5-6
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

I think we will all agree that there is a context specific meaning here (the wedding party). But do you also agree that this directive can be applied in every time and place? What “commandments” might be included in “whatever He tells you”?

And secondly, is not this “directive” from Mary a “commandment”? If not, what is different? It is certainly in the imperative mode.

 

[Pax]

Originally Posted by mikeledes
Also, regarding the “never perish”, Jesus also says the following about never perishing:

John 14:23

23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word…”

John 8:51

51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
.

Quote:
John 10:27-28

“My sheep [keep on] hear[ing] My voice (and therefore, keep on keeping my word), and I [keep on ] know[ing] them, and they [keep on] follow[ing] Me; and I [keep on] give[ing] eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Context, Mike, context.

Both of the verses you cite are in the subjunctive mood and are therefore, conditional, and allow for the possibility of the action of the verb to either happen, or not.

However, and most importantly, you miss the identification of those spoken of; namely, anyone.

I’m certain that your thinking runs something to the effect of ”anyone would include His Sheep!"

But that’s not the case, because again, you miss something important; namely, the specificity of Jn 10:27ff demonstrated by the Personal Pronoun ”MY” sheep.

Therefore, anyone does not include His sheep because they keep on hearing, and doing all the things He said

I’ve included the literal translation, and inserted in red, another of the things His sheep keep on hearing.

You might give the Greek a break and simply stick with the excellent English translations we have for context. Please note that every passage of scripture has an immediate context, but that it also has a context within the book that contains it as well as the rest of scripture. When it comes to the gospels and the words of Jesus there is much to read, enjoy, and absorb. When it comes to Jesus as the Good Shepherd and references to his sheep, there are many references to look at. Each helps us to appreciate the message in full.

You claim that a member of the Lord’s sheep fold cannot leave, but this is false. Jesus says the following:

Matthew 18:5-17
"Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.** If **he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; **and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. **

This passage adds some perspective to the other passages concerning the sheep and perishing. I believe it makes it quite clear that your position is untenable.

 

[Pax]

I won’t belabor it on this thread, but you’ve just assigned to Mary a divine attribute.

Nonsense…even our own earthly mothers work on our hearts. Likewise, we work on one another’s hearts. Paul even says this:

Eph 4:29
Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.

Moon,

You clearly underestimate the power God grants to His saints on earth and in heaven.

 

[moondweller]

Nonsense…even our own earthly mothers work on our hearts. Likewise, we work on one another’s hearts. Paul even says this:

Eph 4:29
Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, **that it may impart grace **to those who hear.

Moon,

You clearly underestimate the power God grants to His saints on earth and in heaven.

Nonsense, eh? That verse doesn’t even begin to say what you claim about Mary. I’m not a child, Pax. You’re going to have to do much better than that.

 

[moondweller]

No. Those of us that are involved in ministry to souls make a living out of working on the hearts of others. What distinguishes this from a secular perspective is that Mary have been “blessed among women”, and she is also "blessed even more " because she heard the Word of God and kept it. She spent more time with the Divine Son than any other human being on earth, and knew HIs mind and heart intimately, as mothers do their firstborn sons.

Scripture shows she didn’t know him all that well. She too had to eventually believe in Him.

God is gracious to us, and allows us to “become all things to all men, so that by some means” we may save some.

That was Paul’s modus operandi.

This is a participation in the ministry of reconciliation.

What does “ministry of reconciliation” mean to you?

Jesus became human so that we can become partakers of the Divine grace. Mary is the very first partaker of this Divine nature in Christ.

No she isn’t. There’s not even a record of when she actually believed in Him. We can assume she did believe since she is recorded as being with the Apostles in the upper room in Acts chapter one. After that she fades out of sight. The “ministry of reconciliation” belonged to the Apostles. Her work was done. Like all mothers, her work was to raise Him to adulthood. So her work ceased years before He even started His public ministry at the age of thirty.

She reflected the work of the HS in her life by obedience to God.

One is not saved (partake of the Divine nature) through a divine pregnancy, but through faith in Him. Like the Apostles, complete faith in Him could not occur until after His death and bodily resurrection.

You are right, this is way off topic. In an effort to bring it back, let me ask this question:

What did Mary mean when she said…

John 2:5-6
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

I think we will all agree that there is a context specific meaning here (the wedding party). But do you also agree that this directive can be applied in every time and place?

A directive from Mary? No.

What “commandments” might be included in “whatever He tells you”?

Jesus has never told me to fill pots with water. In fact, He has never audibly spoken to me any commandments.

And secondly, is not this “directive” from Mary a “commandment”? If not, what is different? It is certainly in the imperative mode.

Mary was talking to waiters/servants at a wedding. Those servants could have paid her no mind, if they had a mind to. They were under no obligation to take direction from her. She was merely a guest at the wedding.

She has no power or authority to give me any commandment, or anyone else, for that matter.

You see, guanophore, you can claim whatever you want about her, and I can claim none of it’s true. What is true of Mary must be Divinely revealed, and what has been revealed states nothing of what you claim about her. It’s as simple as that. You may believe what men have claimed for her, but I am under no obligation to do the same. Mine is to believe in Christ and Christ alone. And that I have done. Have you?

 

[sandusky]

I have a question for both teams:

Is water baptism a command of the Lord?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

Yes.

 

[Pax]

Nonsense, eh? That verse doesn’t even begin to say what you claim about Mary. I’m not a child, Pax. You’re going to have to do much better than that.

You are right…you are not a child…become as a child and you will then be open to learning.

The verse is obviously not specific about Mary. Everyone, even a “child”, realizes that.

Simply look at the entirety of what I wrote. The last quote is about us imparting grace to one another by things that we say to one another.

If God gives us that kind of power then you can well imagine the power that He gives to those in heaven.

Of course this is all lost on you because you are unwilling to absorb anything that disagrees with your views on anything.

 

[Pax]

Moon,

If you wish to learn something about Mary and scripture, I would suggest that you explore some of the threads on this forum that discuss the mother of Jesus.

You would learn a great deal about Mary and scripture in the process.

 

[sandusky]

ryanoneil:

Symbolic non-saving baptism?

Baptism doesn’t save.**Mark 16:16

16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but
he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.**Note carefully: condemnation is on the basis of apisteuō—unbelief— condemnation is not on the basis of not having been baptized.

I’m certain, that there are many who have been baptized, who will not be in the Kingdom, as Mk 16:16 makes clear.

ryanoneil:

Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

That’s your position. I believe from the Greek and the rest of scripture, that Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus because of the remission of sins— a remission that occurred on the cross, and that is appropriated by faith, and not by baptisim.

As the writer says, ”without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness…” (Heb 9:22; cf Lev 17:11).

Baptism being the NT counterpart to OT circumcision, which began before the giving of the law, we see in Leviticus as well, that the outward sign of the covenant is not given for atonement and forgiveness of sins, but “the blood.”

ryanoneil:

Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

That is, once again, an opinion based upon a presupposition that is not supported by you, but only asserted. Lend some support for your position.

 

[moondweller]

You are right…you are not a child…become as a child and you will then be open to learning.

1 Cor 14:20 “Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.”

If God gives us that kind of power then you can well imagine the power that He gives to those in heaven.

And that’s exactly what it is, imagination, not Divine Revelation. I am not told to contend for the imaginations of men but Revelation from God concerning “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3)

Of course this is all lost on you because you are unwilling to absorb anything that disagrees with your views on anything.

As it should be. “A little leaven leavens the whole lump,” says Paul. I consider it “mature” in my thinking to heed his warning.

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

If you wish to learn something about Mary and scripture, I would suggest that you explore some of the threads on this forum that discuss the mother of Jesus.

You would learn a great deal about Mary and scripture in the process.

How could that possibly be, Pax, since 99 percent of what men have claimed for Mary is not found in Scripture? Her alleged powers and heavenly position are found in extra-biblical writing AFTER the Apostolic age.

Oh, and before you go there, allegorizing Scripture to conform to the averments of men doesn’t count. By the allegorical method of interpretation men can conform Scripture (or any writings) to any dogma taught by them. But believers are called to be mature in their thinking, not children.Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

 

[guanophore]

Nonsense, eh? That verse doesn’t even begin to say what you claim about Mary. I’m not a child, Pax. You’re going to have to do much better than that.

If people could not work on one another’s hearts, there would be no such think as courtship and marriage! This is not divine. Although I will agree that working on another’ heart in the power of the HS will have divine side effects, whereas, just wooing a woman for selfish reasons may not.

 

[sandusky]

ryanoneil:

Exclusive promises? Which ones were you refering to?

The promises of a kingdom, and the complete inhabiting and control of the land, where all the nations come to Israel, and serve them.** Isaiah 60:1-14

1 “Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.

2 “For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the Lord will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you.

3 “Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

4 “Lift up your eyes round about and see; They all gather together, they come to you. Your sons will come from afar, And your daughters will be carried in the arms.

5 “Then you will see and be radiant, And your heart will thrill and rejoice; Because the abundance of the sea will be turned to you, The wealth of the nations will come to you.

6 “A multitude of camels will cover you, The young camels of Midian and Ephah; All those from Sheba will come; They will bring gold and frankincense, And will bear good news of the praises of the Lord.

7 “All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered together to you, The rams of Nebaioth will minister to you; They will go up with acceptance on My altar, And I shall glorify My glorious house.

8 “Who are these who fly like a cloud And like the doves to their lattices?

9 “Surely the coastlands will wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, For the name of the Lord your God, And for the Holy One of Israel because He has glorified you.

10 “Foreigners will build up your walls, And their kings will minister to you; For in My wrath I struck you, And in My favor I have had compassion on you.

11 “Your gates will be open continually; They will not be closed day or night, So that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, With their kings led in procession.

12 “For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly ruined.

13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you, The juniper, the box tree and the cypress together, To beautify the place of My sanctuary; And I shall make the place of My feet glorious.

14 “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.**Those promises, promises contained not only in this one chapter of Isaiah, but also in other chapters of Isaiah, and others of the prophets.

Those promises were Israel’s anticipation of her Messiah—that He would free them from the bondage of their enemies, and establish His Kingdom in Jerusalem, and He and Israel would rule the nations from there.

That was the apostles’ expectation. That’s why they had so much difficulty understanding Jesus insistence that He must suffer and die.

And even after witnessing His death, burial, and resurrection, they were still expecting Him to establish His, and their Kingdom and rulership.

Mark well, the disciples final question to Christ before He ascended into heaven:**Acts 1:6

So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”**Is it now, Lord? Is it now?

And note the Lord’s response, if ever they were to know that they had misunderstood the promises God made, now is the moment!! Now is the time for Jesus to tell them, ”Sorry, guys, but you’ve got it all wrong; Israel has been replaced by the Church.”

Is that what Jesus says?

No:**Acts 1:7-8

7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”**The restoration of Israel will include an earthly Kingdom in which Christ will rule from Jerusalem, and the nations will come to worship Him, and to serve Israel, and those that don’t will be utterly ruined and perish.

That’s still future; it hasn’t happened yet.

 

[guanophore]

Scripture shows she didn’t know him all that well. She too had to eventually believe in Him.

Such a statement represents a gross misunderstanding of the scriptural accounts. Mary “believed in HIm” from the moment she understood the Messianic prophesies, a fact that was confirmed for her by the angel Gabriel, who greeted her “full of grace”. She believed in Him personally (in addition to prophetically) from the moment of the Annunciation, through the conception, virgin birth, diapers, weaning, cuts and growing pains. She authorized the start of His public ministry, which He was gracious to allow her to do.

That was Paul’s modus operandi.What does “ministry of reconciliation” mean to you?

God is reconciling the world to Himself through us in whom He lives, moves, and has His being.

No she isn’t.

Who do you think was the first Christian?

There’s not even a record of when she actually believed in Him.

What is it about her response to the angel that makes you think she did not have faith? How is it disbelieving to respond:

Luke 1:38
38 Then Mary said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”



Where in the Magnificant do we see disbelief?

Luke 1:46-55

And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48 for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant.Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed; 49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me,and holy is his name. 50 His mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation. 51 He has shown strength with his arm;he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts. 52 He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,and lifted up the lowly; 53 he has filled the hungry with good things,and sent the rich away empty. 54 He has helped his servant Israel,in remembrance of his mercy, 55 according to the promise he made to our ancestors,to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

If this is not a profession of faith, I don’t know what is. Would it make more sense to you if it read “I have accepted Jesus into my womb as my personal Lord and Savior”?

One can only deny that Mary had faith in Christ if they are reading the passages with anti-Catholic blinders on.

We can assume she did believe since she is recorded as being with the Apostles in the upper room in Acts chapter one.

Well, this is mighty generous of you!

After that she fades out of sight. The “ministry of reconciliation” belonged to the Apostles. Her work was done. Like all mothers, her work was to raise Him to adulthood. So her work ceased years before He even started His public ministry at the age of thirty.

If that were true, then why was she even in the upper room? For that matter, why did she follow him about? Why did she stand at the foot of the cross? Why not stay in Nazareth, and say to herself “my work is done”?

One is not saved (partake of the Divine nature) through a divine pregnancy, but through faith in Him.

I agree, but the complete faith in God preceeded the pregnancy. This is why the angel greeted her as he did.

We also have the testimony of Elizabeth:

Luke 1:40-45
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 **And blessed is she who believed **that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

Mary is blessed because she believed. Yet she is also blessed because of the fruit of her womb, the great honor to bear the Son of God.

Like the Apostles, complete faith in Him could not occur until after His death and bodily resurrection.

Our faith is constantly under construction, and the implanted word grows and grows. They believed in Him before his crucifixion also, but their faith continually grew. It was sealed and set on fire at Pentecost.

A directive from Mary? No.Jesus has never told me to fill pots with water.

Me either, unless one counts the vessel of our bodies, and the filling of the HS, often symbolized with water.

Do you not find the directive “Do whatever He tells you” fitting for all Christians?

In fact, He has never audibly spoken to me any commandments.Mary was talking to waiters/servants at a wedding.

Yes, she was, but just like most passages in Scripture, the message transcends the moment.

Those servants could have paid her no mind, if they had a mind to. They were under no obligation to take direction from her. She was merely a guest at the wedding.

Perhaps not. It is possible that she was part of the wedding hosts’ party. It may have been a relative, and she may have been responsible for some preparations.

 

[guanophore]

She has no power or authority to give me any commandment, or anyone else, for that matter.

This sounds like a comment that one of my juvenile delinquents made last week about his classroom teacher. Almost word for word! Interesting. It represents a rebellious heart toward authority, and also the gift of nurturing that is being offered.

You see, guanophore, you can claim whatever you want about her, and I can claim none of it’s true. What is true of Mary must be Divinely revealed, and what has been revealed states nothing of what you claim about her.

I agree. It is no surprise to me that you reject the extra biblical sources, but what is amazing to me is that you reject even what the scripture itself testifies on these matters.

It's as simple as that.  You may believe what men have claimed for her, but I am under no obligation to do the same. Mine is to believe in Christ and Christ alone.  And that I have done.  Have you?

No, Jesus was quite clear that His is not an “alone” message. Those who come to faith in HIm are commanded to be baptized. In baptism, we are joined with His body, the Church. Therefore, belief in Him also means becoming members one of another.

Mark 10:29-31
Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses,** brothers and sisters, mothers and children**, and fields, with persecutions — and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."

I often wonder what “Jesus alone” people think of passages like this.

However, we are getting far off topic with these posts about baptism and Mary. Jesus exemplified the commandment to honor father and mother in HIs relationship with His own earthly mother.

Luke 2:51
" Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart."

Do you think Jesus would have submitted Himself in obedience to the faithless? Why would He choose faithless persons to act as His earthly parents?

If Mary did not believe in HIm, why did she treasure His ways?

Jesus stated that we would have many hundredfolds of family members and that we were to love one another.

 

[moondweller]

If people could not work on one another’s hearts, there would be no such think as courtship and marriage! This is not divine. Although I will agree that working on another’ heart in the power of the HS will have divine side effects, whereas, just wooing a woman for selfish reasons may not.

Again, this does not speak to what you claim about Mary and her Divine powers over the hearts of men via her alleged elevated position in heaven.

It’s the Holy Spirit Himself that convicts men’s hearts concerning sin, righteousness and judgment (Jn. 16:8) But the work of evangelizing is restricted to men living on this earth and limited to the generation in which they’re born. Not even Paul can any longer enter into the affairs of men during this age. His work was finished when he died.

 

[moondweller]

The restoration of Israel will include an earthly Kingdom in which Christ will rule from Jerusalem, and the nations will come to worship Him, and to serve Israel, and those that don’t will be utterly ruined and perish.

That’s still future; it hasn’t happened yet.

Rom 11:25-29 “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant with them (the branches that are temporarily broken off “until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in”), when I take away their sins.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your (Gentile’s) sake, but from the standpoint of {God’s} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Israel’s); for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

 

[guanophore]

Again, this does not speak to what you claim about Mary and her Divine powers over the hearts of men via her alleged elevated position in heaven

No, moon. It was YOU who claimed that influencing someone’s heart was a divine attribute not we. I am just attempting to show you that it is a quite human attribute, though I will agree that we cannot do anything nor have anything that did not come from God in the first place.

Mary’s elevated position was given to her by God, and Scripture is clear that the prayers of the powerful saint are more effective. when you need prayer, don’t you go to the best prayer warrior you know? Our mama wears army boots.

It’s the Holy Spirit Himself that convicts men’s hearts concerning sin, righteousness and judgment (Jn. 16:8)

Yes. this is why we are only effective when we are co-workers with God.

But the work of evangelizing is restricted to men living on this earth and limited to the generation in which they’re born.

I suppose you are free to restrict your evangelization however you wish. Why would you want to do so? I find the evangelical sermons of the Fathers so inspiring, why should their words be limited to their generation?

Anyway, if this were true, then the evangelistic sermons in the Scripture would have to be disregarded.

Not even Paul can any longer enter into the affairs of men during this age. His work was finished when he died.

Well, all the labors of the saints are completed when they die. They are at rest, and with their heavenly reward.

I am not sure what you mean by “enter into the affairs of men”. I am not sure why they would have any such interest in such things. they are only concerned with the affairs of God, like Moses and Elijah when they spoke to Jesus about his upcoming crucifixion.

Anyway, some of us consider that we are in the church age, and that it will last until Christ comes for us.

Once again, we are afield fo the topic.

On the question of commandments, do you consider this directive of James to be an ordinance?

James 5:14-17
4 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

 

[Pax]

1 Cor 14:20 "Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature."And that’s exactly what it is, imagination, not Divine Revelation. I am not told to contend for the imaginations of men but Revelation from God concerning “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3)As it should be. “A little leaven leavens the whole lump,” says Paul. I consider it “mature” in my thinking to heed his warning.

Your thinking is not what I was referring to when I spoke of being more child like. If you would like me to describe your thinking, I can do that as well. What I am talking about is what Jesus talks about when he speaks to his disciples about being like little children. It is a matter of the heart and mind being open to the truth in love and humility. It has everything to do with trusting God and his word like a child trusts its parents. What I said has nothing to do with immature thinking.

As far as pitting imagination against divine revelation is concerned, I will say this:

You are uttering the sophist’s argument and pitting our points against something that they already coincide with. ISTM, that your approach sucks the power out of grace, and sucks the life of God in his saints out of heaven.

Paul says this:

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

If this applies to us, then what about the saints in heaven that Jesus says are “like the angels?” Think about all that scripture attributes to angels. This also applies to the saints in heaven.

1 Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,” God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

1 Cor 13:11-12
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

I think that you need to reconsider what I said and meant about being more child like and you need to reconsider what I said about mature thinking as these apply to learning something of what God has in store for those in heaven. There is so much more in scripture that would help you appreciate all of this. Keep studying.

 

[ryanoneil]

16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but
he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

[/indent]Note carefully: condemnation is on the basis of apisteuō—unbelief— condemnation is not on the basis of not having been baptized.

I’m certain, that there are many who have been baptized, who will not be in the Kingdom, as Mk 16:16 makes clear.

I agree that there are many who have been baptized, who will not be in the Kingdom because of disbelief/disobedience… I’m also certain that there are many who have believed and go on to lose their salvation through disbelief/disobedience.

We are right back to square one. Losing salvation. We’ve had this conversation before, and disagreed then.

Just because someone is “predestined to grace” doesn’t mean they are “predestined to glory.”

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. (Rev 22:19)

He who believes, is baptized, and is saved, can lose that salvation through disbelief and disobedience.